[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So like a 3 series interior.

Perhaps a chevy cruz would be more to your sporty-likings? That is definitely an "upright" car. Ford Fiesta RS is likely to be very upright.

Going in the same direction, perhaps you want an SUV? Excellent visibility usually.

Already have two SUV's and an M4. I'm all set.

You aren't very observant and seem to struggle with reading comprehension. Just do a search on how awful the visibility is and how many blind spots are on that cartoon car aka the Camaro.

Since you seen to like it so much, when are you going to "upgrade" and sell your 4 series for the Cruz or the Camaro? Post pics when you have put your money where your mouth is.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

I agree that in 5 years the camaro will have rust issues. See it every day. 1 year old Chrysler's with all the fasteners rusted solid, Chevy trucks with substantial frame rust after 3 years. The US brands use unknown recycled metal. BMW and MB use their own metal for recycling.

Wait... what? BMW and MB use "their own" metal for recycling? You live in New Hampshire, the shit they put on your roads eats anything.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by eric_spt

Rust?

I haven't seen a car rust that was built in the past 7-8 years, regardless of who built it.

The C7 interior has more soft touch points and materials than the current 335. A big part of buying an S4 over the 335 was the interior was cheap, hard plastic up on the sills and everywhere else.

It may not be great leather but the entire dash, door, etc. is covered in a C7. The leather on the seats is cheap, at least the base leather but my C7 with manual, Magnetic Ride Control, Z51 Package, NPP Exhaust, 2LT package, pretty much everything except for 3LT(Nappa and NAV) was $58,600 and I paid $57,100, a few grand more than a loaded 235.

Nappa was not worth an additional 4K to get the better leather to me. The car is quiet and with MRC rides better than my S4. The powertrain is dead reliable and in 23K not a single issue with it.

I would not take a Cayman or any other car over a C7. Only thing I'd consider is a 911 Turbo to be a true competitor. Mine with a supercharger and meth sits at 645rwhp and 605ft lbs of torque. The stock motor will handle up to 700rwhp without issue and there are tons of them out there at that power level.

The new Camaro is a huge improvement and we had considered a convertible as the wife's summer car. The only issue is there are a lot of 4000-5000 mile '14 and '15 C7's out there at the same price point of a new 6th Gen Convertible 2SS.

To most people the two cars will handle similar. In a straight line they should be about dead even but pushed on the track the C7 is 2X the car the Camaro will be.

A lot has to do with tires and brakes but we just finished a 3 day class at Spring Mountain with C7's, track alignment, and a brake pad change. On 2nd warm up laps we were seeing 1.25g's in sweepers on the stock tires and that was not even pushing it.

Put the same tires on a Camaro and I'm sure it will be closer but stock for stock at the limit the two will be no where near each other.

While I agree with a lot of what you said, I would like to point out a few exceptions.

I think you are grossly underestimating the new Camaro's abilities. The Corvette will certainly hold a distinct advantage thanks to it's weight and other aspects, but to claim the Corvette to be 2x the car the Camaro is untrue, and I don't think there's any reviews to confirm your standpoint.

And touching on your point of having a summer car, whatever edge the Corvette has in driving dynamics, the Camaro makes that up and then some in the ease-of-use department. It'd make a much better choice for such a vehicle, imo.

[FriskyDingo]

The BS is getting deep in here.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

Or maybe they just made a great car? Better chassis than an M4, better dampers, better traction management system, faster track time, more power, more torque, better MPG, AND a solid $25,000 less. Huge achievement.

Regardless how good or bad the Camaro is...MT has a history of GM bias.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Already have two SUV's and an M4. I'm all set.

You aren't very observant and seem to struggle with reading comprehension. Just do a search on how awful the visibility is and how many blind spots are on that cartoon car aka the Camaro.

Since you seen to like it so much, when are you going to "upgrade" and sell your 4 series for the Cruz or the Camaro? Post pics when you have put your money where your mouth is.

I'm not the one complaining about the visibility in a low-slung low-roofline sportscar. Seriously, what did you expect?

Oh and the rear window in my 4 series is pretty much the exact same size as the camaro's.

I guess if someone is like you, a sports car is not what you want, hence, a coupe based on a passenger sedan, like you bought.

[eric_spt]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

While I agree with a lot of what you said, I would like to point out a few exceptions.

I think you are grossly underestimating the new Camaro's abilities. The Corvette will certainly hold a distinct advantage thanks to it's weight and other aspects, but to claim the Corvette to be 2x the car the Camaro is untrue, and I don't think there's any reviews to confirm your standpoint.

And touching on your point of having a summer car, whatever edge the Corvette has in driving dynamics, the Camaro makes that up and then some in the ease-of-use department. It'd make a much better choice for such a vehicle, imo.

I said at the limit on the track dead stock, the C7 will be far superior. The PSS ZP's compared to the F1's are not even close.

My comments come from pro drivers who have driven both on the same track, 6th gen's have been on track for development for a while.

Put the same tire on both cars and things probably change quite a bit. I'd even say most of the Z06 performance difference on the track comes from tires more so than the 650hp. The Cup tires on the Z07 is the biggest performance improvement.

Not saying its not a great car but the difference in performance is there and just keeps moving up to a higher and higher skilled driver to see the difference.

It also looks way better in person than in the pictures. They have been on the road here for a while and tend to photograph poorly especially from the front.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I'm not the one complaining about the visibility in a low-slung low-roofline sportscar. Seriously, what did you expect?

Oh and the rear window in my 4 series is pretty much the exact same size as the camaro's.

I guess if someone is like you, a sports car is not what you want, hence, a coupe based on a passenger sedan, like you bought.

A Camaro is not a sports car and neither is a Mustang or an M4. Vette, CaymanS, Viper, R8, 911 are sports cars.

Once again, you are not getting the point I made about the Camaro visibility. The tiny rear side windows make for awful blind spots.

I opted for the M4 over the CaymanS because I wanted a performance oriented daily driver over a true sports car that I would only drive on the weekend

[RM7]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

A Camaro is not a sports car and neither is a Mustang or an M4. Vette, CaymanS, Viper, R8, 911 are sports cars.

Huh? If it's got 2 doors and useless rear seats, it's well on its way, add performance and purpose and you've arrived at a sports car, everything from a light Miata to a heavy Mercedes.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Huh? If it's got 2 doors and useless rear seats, it's well on its way, add performance and purpose and you've arrived at a sports car, everything from a light Miata to a heavy Mercedes.

a Miata is indeed a sports car. A heavy Mercedes not. They are called GT cars. Look it up.

[chillindrdude]

Id argue a sports car should be less than 3500lbs, 2 doors and rear/mid engined

[RM7]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

a Miata is indeed a sports car. A heavy Mercedes not. They are called GT cars. Look it up.

It depends, on the suspension, power to weight ratio, etc.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

Id argue a sports car should be less than 3500lbs, 2 doors and rear/mid engined

Ahh, like a corvette.

[Efthreeoh]

Here's a news flash, most all sports coupes have poor visibility, one just needs to learn how to adapt...

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Here's a news flash, most all sports coupes have poor visibility, one just needs to learn how to adapt...

I guess I'm just super super lucky that none of mine had piss poor visibility like the Camaro

My BMW's, Audi and GTR all must have been unicorns

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...oor+visibility

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

It depends, on the suspension, power to weight ratio, etc.

No.

My M6 is a GT.

Even 100 lbs lighter than stock, heavily modified suspension and with almost 600 hp it is still a GT. It was born a GT, it will die a GT.

Cheers-mk

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I guess I'm just super super lucky that none of mine had piss poor visibility like the Camaro

My BMW's, Audi and GTR all must have been unicorns

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...oor+visibility

I have a 2008 Z4 Coupe. It has seriously piss poor visibility. So by your definition it's a POS and completely un-drivable like the '16 Camaro. Maybe BMW outsourced the design of the Z4 Coupe to GM. LOL

I've driven a Cayman, that sports coupe was no better in the visibility department than my Z4, so I can't imagine why you owned one.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

Id argue a sports car should be less than 3500lbs, 2 doors and rear/mid engined

I agree with all of the above with the exception of engine placement. Some of the greatest sports cars ever made have been front-engined.

I would add 2 seats, as well.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a 2008 Z4 Coupe. It has seriously piss poor visibility. So by your definition it's a POS and completely un-drivable like the '16 Camaro. Maybe BMW outsourced the design of the Z4 Coupe to GM. LOL

I've driven a Cayman, that sports coupe was no better in the visibility department than my Z4, so I can't imagine why you owned one.

Yes. I can scarcely back up my i8 unless I have help. I'm terrified of driving it on the open road because of the blind spots. I think I'm going to get rid of it. I suggest you do the same with your Z4.

Cheers-mk

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

No.

My M6 is a GT.

Even 100 lbs lighter than stock, heavily modified suspension and with almost 600 hp it is still a GT. It was born a GT, it will die a GT.

Cheers-mk

Maybe the Camaro with its new chassis (dynamic handling) has moved into the realm of a GT and away from a "muscle car" or "pony car", as was its original designation. I really think with the new emphasis on handling that GM and Ford has put into the Camaro and Mustang the term "Pony Car" or "Muscle Car" is really quite antiquated. Other than the perception of "luxury" (or near luxury as the 3-series is really classified as) the Camaro and Mustang are a lot closer to the 3-series (i.e. sports sedan and sports coupe) and can be cross-shopped with the current BMW 4-series.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Yes. I can scarcely back up my i8 unless I have help. I'm terrified of driving it on the open road because of the blind spots. I think I'm going to get rid of it. I suggest you do the same with your Z4.

Cheers-mk

The expense of owning a Z4 Coupe is the need to carry a "spotter" with you while you drive it so you can park. I keep one on staff...

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a 2008 Z4 Coupe. It has seriously piss poor visibility. So by your definition it's a POS and completely un-drivable like the '16 Camaro. Maybe BMW outsourced the design of the Z4 Coupe to GM. LOL

I've driven a Cayman, that sports coupe was no better in the visibility department than my Z4, so I can't imagine why you owned one.

Most sports cars do have poor visibility. A Camaro is not a sports car. What part of that don't you understand? A GT car is supposed to give you the comforts/utility that a sports car does not along with performance. Your Z4 is a sports car.

My CaymanS was quite easy to see out of. The Vette was a bit tougher. NONE of them was as remotely difficult to see out of as the rental Camaro SS I had in Florida. It was abysmal. That's just one of about 30 reasons why I'd never own one, however. Never another Gov't Motors vehicle for me.