[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Watch the latest interview with Peter Rawlinson of Lucid on Savageese’s channel and then ask yourself if you really believe that.

You are comparing a company that only builds EVsnto a traditional manufacturer. One that without the Saudi Sovereign fund would be out of business because they couldn't scale.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Lucid has great battery management and electric motor tech, but they aren't BMW or Mercedes.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

It’s relentless all the way to 160+

This new Model 3 is a much better car than one it replaces

It doesn’t have animal skin, but I love the new sport seats, and I like the 25k sitting in my Fidelity account instead

It may be better that what it replaces, but it still has bad paint and panel gap problems.

You would think that a company that claims to be the leader would be able to at least pain the car correctly and fix their panel gap issues.

Oh, I forgot, it's tech in the car because their assembly tech and inspection is a generation behind BMW.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

A platform deigned for multiple drivetrain variants may involve some compromise but it is anything but a "bastard" or "Frankenstein".

I'm an engineer and design decisions don't equal a "bastard" having to go back and retrofit does.

BMW is not Tesla, Rivian or Lucid and does not have the luxury of just going in all EV and foresake customer choice.

Just because others have a "drink" doesn't mean everyone must. If that's the case then everyone should have a HUD because it's just plain better. Also a "frunk" with heavy objects would change the steering and handling dynamic. You don't want to have weight changes and objects shifting above your steering. Which is also why the i4 has self leveling in the rear. But engineering seems to escape some folks.

As a manufacturer that has to deal with an existing customer base, BMW, Mercedes and others will continue to build ICE, hybrids and BEV in the numbers the customer demands and government regulations allow.

ICE will be around because EV will never be a thing in the middle of Africa, South America or the Outback. You can transport gas anywhere and you can turn biomass in to fuel *anywhere*.

You really think you can’t generate electricity in Africa? If you’re an engineer you should realize the irony in that statement.

At the end of the day you’re arguing semantics. The i4 platform was not primarily design with EVs in mind, it is clearly an ICE-centric platform. This explains why a small sedan can only eek out 230 miles of range. Oh by the way, I guarantee you the next gen 4-series will have a frunk.

Funny that you think the base i4, which is in no way a performance oriented vehicle, compromised on having a frunk because of supposed “heavy objects placed in the frunk that impair handling dynamics”. Lmfao, you’re reaching hard with that one. Yea, sure, I don’t understand “engineering”. It’s just what I do everyday for a living. Or do you think you’re the only engineer here? The i4 doesn’t have a frunk because the engineers couldn’t make the packaging work due the platform being originally designed for an ICE powertrain.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It may be better that what it replaces, but it still has bad paint and panel gap problems.

You would think that a company that claims to be the leader would be able to at least pain the car correctly and fix their panel gap issues.

Oh, I forgot, it's tech in the car because their assembly tech and inspection is a generation behind BMW.

Your not wrong about the paint and they did treat me like garbage and they had to adjust one of my doors but the car is great now after dealing with them on the most pathetic level

In the end I am happy with my car but if you know anyone buying one tell them to make sure they look the car over before they take delivery otherwise they’re gonna have to lawyer up like I did and play hardball

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Your not wrong about the paint and they did treat me like garbage and they had to adjust one of my doors but the car is great now after dealing with them on the most pathetic level

In the end I am happy with my car but if you know anyone buying one tell them to make sure they look the car over before they take delivery otherwise they’re gonna have to lawyer up like I did and play hardball

Nice looking car, but all I can think about are tacos!

[SF Dede]

I, for one, hope that the “Heart of Joy” supercomputer the Neue Klasse will use will help restore part of what is lost between ICE and EV. If you read the articles written about it, that seems to be the focus in part.

Do I think it will be the same? No.

Do I believe in fake shifts and fake engine noise? No. [Should early ICE vehicles have neighed and winnied like a horse? No.]

They each need to be their own thing.

I do believe an EV can be a lot of fun. My Model 3 is fun. Do I think it a BMW Neue Klasse EV will be much better, different, and more fun? Absolutely.

[Ray S]

Originally Posted by spademonkey

I'm curious to see when this'll come out, as the non-M Neue Klasse BEV 3 Series is supposed to come out end of 2026 calendar year, but current gen G8X aren't ending production until 2027/2028 calendar years. So time will tell if there'll be overlap, or if they delay this M3 Neue Klasse until current G8X platform M's are done with production.

They will sell concurrently. Same with the ICE X3 and Neue Klasse EV X3. The X3 M will be an EV.

[speedmaster20d]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

I sincerely doubt it will weigh anything close to that number

Don’t doubt BMW M, they’ve not about failure, but about setting the bar as high as humanly possible

I’d call the new M5 a failure.

[R0ot.Us3r]

Originally Posted by Aalfred

Let me tell you from first hand experience, no one who wants an M car wants to drive it like a granny. These M BEV are a joke. Their batteries don’t last long and if you push the car they drain their charge like a leaking oil cooler guard. Despite what they say 300 miles on a full charge, you prob get 150 miles and if you account for a 20% reserve then you are getting about 120 miles on a charge. This is for a dual motor and if you want a quad motor, God help us with mileage. I’ve pushed my M like it’s supposed to be and still got an average of 21 miles on 20F weather and can count on a getting 280-300 miles on a tank. On a BEV I can’t even do half that speed without losing 50% of my charge and they change drastically between trips !!!. BMW needs to come up with a better battery tech before they push out these M BEV !!! That way you can drive an M like it’s supposed to be and not have range anxiety with every pedal push !!!

Well said, EV’s are good for short local drives. That’s the positives from the new M5’s small battery for around town BS.

Batteries do well in static conditions with at static draw. Temperature changes, road surface, heavy acceleration, hell TIME - these all degrade batteries allowing them to store LESS energy. It’s not your iPhones age, it’s your iPhones battery’s age…

My 15 gallon gas tank will always hold 15 gallons

PLUS when is the last time an ICE vehicle was in a car accident and and people were stuck inside? Lithium fires are a B to put out. There is a reason R/C folks charge their batteries in metal ammo cans…just sayin

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Huh? With FSD it’s completely hands free, is light years ahead of BMWs ADAS and is still cheaper than a fully spec’d i4 M50

FSD is not hands free!!!!
From the Tesla website:
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires a fully attentive driver and will display a series of escalating warnings requiring driver response. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged.While Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, the cabin camera monitors driver attentiveness (see Driver Attentiveness).

BMW supports hands free up to 40mph which is something Tesla does not support at all.
Tesla also does not have cross traffic alerts because it has no radar and can only detect what the camera sees. Also self parking is unreliable.

Tesla with vision only is a flawed premise.
Tesla also doesn't have true gapless 360 view.

Show me in writing where Tesla shops an unsupervised system where hands are not required?

Tesla doesn't even have capacitive hand detect. Primitive torque on the wheel.

Tesla in a quantitative analysis of ADAS for functionality and ease of use ranks 6th or 7th.

Only two systems in the US have L3 certification and that's BMW in the 5/7 and Mercedes S Class.

Tesla lags behind Cruise, Waymo and Zoox for L4.

Tesla is L2+ at best.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by jmack123

You really think you can’t generate electricity in Africa? If you’re an engineer you should realize the irony in that statement.

At the end of the day you’re arguing semantics. The i4 platform was not primarily design with EVs in mind, it is clearly an ICE-centric platform. This explains why a small sedan can only eek out 230 miles of range. Oh by the way, I guarantee you the next gen 4-series will have a frunk.

Funny that you think the base i4, which is in no way a performance oriented vehicle, compromised on having a frunk because of supposed “heavy objects placed in the frunk that impair handling dynamics”. Lmfao, you’re reaching hard with that one. Yea, sure, I don’t understand “engineering”. It’s just what I do everyday for a living. Or do you think you’re the only engineer here? The i4 doesn’t have a frunk because the engineers couldn’t make the packaging work due the platform being originally designed for an ICE powertrain.

What I mean is ubiquitous EVs in remote areas aren't cost effective. It's more cost effective to still have some sort of portable fuel than it is to put charging stations even solar. You seem to misinterpret what I am saying about EVs.

Only 230 miles of range? Huh?
I get more than 230 with stock performance summer tires. What specs are you looking for at? The eDrive35? With a smaller battery.

I doubt the next BMW anything will have a frunk. The iX is a bespoke carbon core platform and has no frunk.

I didn't make up the driving dynamics argument, BMW in an interview said that a frunk wasn't useful and affected the driving dynamics.

I never said I was the only engineer here. But you assume Tesla does the right thing with thier crap car/iPad, no soul vehicles

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Your not wrong about the paint and they did treat me like garbage and they had to adjust one of my doors but the car is great now after dealing with them on the most pathetic level

In the end I am happy with my car but if you know anyone buying one tell them to make sure they look the car over before they take delivery otherwise they’re gonna have to lawyer up like I did and play hardball

But that's my point, you have to fight to get it done right and you shouldn't have to.

I've never worried about those things with any other car because you don't own the car until you drive away and traditional manufacturers can't afford to have you walk away.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

You are comparing a company that only builds EVsnto a traditional manufacturer. One that without the Saudi Sovereign fund would be out of business because they couldn't scale.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Lucid has great battery management and electric motor tech, but they aren't BMW or Mercedes.

Yes, which means BMW should have the resources to do it right. Instead, they, like all other legacy car manufacturers, are stuck in the past of old ways of thinking. Hell look what happened when VAG brought an ID 4 to Rivian and they completely re did the electronics architecture in 6 months. VW thought it would take 6 years.

Sorry, but the combo architecture is a massive compromise.

Lucid’s financial situation doesn’t mean their engineering isn’t good. I am one too, by the way.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by R0ot.Us3r

Well said, EV’s are good for short local drives. That’s the positives from the new M5’s small battery for around town BS.

Batteries do well in static conditions with at static draw. Temperature changes, road surface, heavy acceleration, hell TIME - these all degrade batteries allowing them to store LESS energy. It’s not your iPhones age, it’s your iPhones battery’s age…

My 15 gallon gas tank will always hold 15 gallons

PLUS when is the last time an ICE vehicle was in a car accident and and people were stuck inside? Lithium fires are a B to put out. There is a reason R/C folks charge their batteries in metal ammo cans…just sayin

lol. Holy cow you need to stop reading the anti-EV rhetoric Reddit forums. Wow all of this is pretty much completely wrong except that batteries do degrade. But even that is not significant. Yeah, your gas tank always holds 15 gallons but your injectors clog, your rings wear, your valves carbon up, your PCV system clogs, your cat degrades, etc. Please show me an ICE engine that has the same performance at 100k miles as 0.

I’ll wait.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

FSD is not hands free!!!!
From the Tesla website:
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires a fully attentive driver and will display a series of escalating warnings requiring driver response. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged.While Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, the cabin camera monitors driver attentiveness (see Driver Attentiveness).

BMW supports hands free up to 40mph which is something Tesla does not support at all.
Tesla also does not have cross traffic alerts because it has no radar and can only detect what the camera sees. Also self parking is unreliable.

Tesla withvision only is a flawed premise.
Tesla also doesn't have true gapless 360 view.

Show me in writing where Tesla shops an unsupervised system where hands are not required?

Tesla doesn't even have capacitive hand detect. Primitive torque on the wheel.

Tesla in a quantitative analysis of ADAS for functionality and ease of use ranks 6th or 7th.

Only two systems in the US have L3 certification and that's BMW in the 5/7 and Mercedes S Class.

Tesla lags behind Cruise, Waymo and Zoox for L4.

Tesla is L2+ at best.

Completely accurate. Tesla ADAS is garbage.

[R0ot.Us3r]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

lol. Holy cow you need to stop reading the anti-EV rhetoric Reddit forums. Wow all of this is pretty much completely wrong except that batteries do degrade. But even that is not significant. Yeah, your gas tank always holds 15 gallons but your injectors clog, your rings wear, your valves carbon up, your PCV system clogs, your cat degrades, etc. Please show me an ICE engine that has the same performance at 100k miles as 0.

I’ll wait.

Like you agreed, batteries degrade. So I’ll give you an ICE vehicle with the same performance after 100k miles as soon as you give me an electric vehicle with the same RANGE after 100k miles, I’ll wait…

What you naïvely are overlooking, is the cost to get each type of vehicle back to its original performance. my X3M may need new gaskets, injectors, etc, but the financial and environmental impact of a new lithium battery far exceeds that

But hey, if you’re OK with the fact that most lithium comes from the exploitation of marginalized, African communities, that’s on you

[x622]

Originally Posted by R0ot.Us3r

But hey, if you’re OK with the fact that most lithium comes from the exploitation of marginalized, African communities, that’s on you

Hahaha. Go watch empire of dust.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by R0ot.Us3r

Like you agreed, batteries degrade. So I’ll give you an ICE vehicle with the same performance after 100k miles as soon as you give me an electric vehicle with the same RANGE after 100k miles, I’ll wait…

What you naïvely are overlooking, is the cost to get each type of vehicle back to its original performance. my X3M may need new gaskets, injectors, etc, but the financial and environmental impact of a new lithium battery far exceeds that

But hey, if you’re OK with the fact that most lithium comes from the exploitation of marginalized, African communities, that’s on you

More false garbage. Keep reading those anti-EV vlogs. One day you will find something that’s true.

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

FSD is not hands free!!!!
From the Tesla website:
Like other Autopilot features, Full Self-Driving (Supervised) requires a fully attentive driver and will display a series of escalating warnings requiring driver response. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel while Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged.While Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is engaged, the cabin camera monitors driver attentiveness (see Driver Attentiveness).

BMW supports hands free up to 40mph which is something Tesla does not support at all.
Tesla also does not have cross traffic alerts because it has no radar and can only detect what the camera sees. Also self parking is unreliable.

Tesla withvision only is a flawed premise.
Tesla also doesn't have true gapless 360 view.

Show me in writing where Tesla shops an unsupervised system where hands are not required?

Tesla doesn't even have capacitive hand detect. Primitive torque on the wheel.

Tesla in a quantitative analysis of ADAS for functionality and ease of use ranks 6th or 7th.

Only two systems in the US have L3 certification and that's BMW in the 5/7 and Mercedes S Class.

Tesla lags behind Cruise, Waymo and Zoox for L4.

Tesla is L2+ at best.

Lmao the hell it isn’t. They removed hand on the steering wheel requirement several versions ago in 12.4. Are you kidding me?? I literally drove to Boston from NY without touching the wheel 98% of the time. Try again. Don’t believe me? Countless YouTube videos.



SMH Tesla also just added cross traffic alerts in the latest holiday update. You really really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Even BMW ADAS you are clueless as the newer iXs with 8.5 will indeed do hands free above 40mph.

Oh and cruise is essentially dead as of last week so I guess they aren’t ahead of anyone anymore

[Maverick241]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Completely accurate. Tesla ADAS is garbage.

That’s basic autopilot not FSD.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

What I mean is ubiquitous EVs in remote areas aren't cost effective. It's more cost effective to still have some sort of portable fuel than it is to put charging stations even solar. You seem to misinterpret what I am saying about EVs.

Only 230 miles of range? Huh?
I get more than 230 with stock performance summer tires. What specs are you looking for at? The eDrive35? With a smaller battery.

I doubt the next BMW anything will have a frunk. The iX is a bespoke carbon core platform and has no frunk.

I didn't make up the driving dynamics argument, BMW in an interview said that a frunk wasn't useful and affected the driving dynamics.

I never said I was the only engineer here. But you assume Tesla does the right thing with thier crap car/iPad, no soul vehicles

The i4 M50 is not getting more than 230 miles of highway range (i.e. at 70 mph) was my point.

I’m not trying to bash the i4. I’m sure it’s a great car and EV. My point is the average consumer is likely going to balk unless they get 300+ real world range and/or ultra-convenient charging (e.g. Tesla).

I see the next gen platforms providing that experience. The iX has nice range, but is expensive and doesn’t have the greatest charging curve. I’m sure Tesla access next year will help though (although the CCS experience has significantly improved on the last couple years).

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Maverick241

Lmao the hell it isn’t. They removed hand on the steering wheel requirement several versions ago in 12.4. Are you kidding me?? I literally drove to Boston from NY without touching the wheel 98% of the time. Try again. Don’t believe me? Countless YouTube videos.



SMH Tesla also just added cross traffic alerts in the latest holiday update. You really really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Even BMW ADAS you are clueless as the newer iXs with 8.5 will indeed do hands free above 40mph.

Oh and cruise is essentially dead as of last week so I guess they aren’t ahead of anyone anymore

Tesla FSD is not safe as hands free.
No redundancy in the camera array. Tesla has not allowed evaluation by any independent agency. I don't care what Musk says. The system does not confirm to ASIL-C/D or ISO26262. If it allows hands free you shouldn't use it.

It is still called "beta".

BMW i4 is hands free to 40 mph.
iX, 5 and 7 series class use a later version of MobilEye hardware that is hands free to 85mph. Two different ADAS for BMW.
3,4 and iX,5 and 7. Your gotcha isn't; I'm fully aware of the differences of BMW systems. Mercedes and BMW are the *ONLY* systems certified as L3 with specific parameters where the driver only needs to be at the when and don't have to pay attention.
That will never be possible with Tesla as the cameras have no redundancy.

There is not Tesla past or preset that can meet L3 let alone L4 requirements because there is no redundancy in the sensor array. The system isn't even safe hands free because if a camera is lost it can barely keep the lane.

Tesla cross traffic alert cannot detect until you have pulled out of the space. They don't have radar, so they can only see what a camera can see. If the camera is obstructed, the alerts are not possible.

But they just added it in the holiday release and you say it's superior.

Auto Park is hit or miss at best because there are no ultrasonic sensors. No radar.

Cruise as a taxi company is dead, the technology is being rolled into GM after they acquire the 10% that they do not own. The technology is still ahead of Tesla. Tesla has been claiming FSD for a decade. Claimed last year that L4 would be this year. Announced that HW3 software updates would not include all features of HW4. Has started adding radar back because adaptive cruise without radar is not as robust as a radar based system.

You think I don't know what I'm talking about, but you just seem to be a Tesla fanboi in the wrong forum.