[Ti335]

Few people will dispute the fact that the 2000's saw the release of some of the ugliest BMW's ever made, under the watchful eye of the American buffoon by the name of Chris Bangle, who somehow managed to get appointed as BMW's head of design. His Lebanese successor, Karim Habib, is hardly doing a much better job. While post-Bangle cars are not quite as ugly as, say, the E60 5-series or E83 X3, they are still a far cry from BMW's glory days. Sadly, there will likely never be a BMW as beautiful and elegant as the E31 8-series or E39 5-series. And that is because someone at BMW got the crazy idea that European cars should be designed by non-Europeans. You wouldn't hire a Russian to design the Chevy Camaro or a Swede to pen the next gen Nissan GTR. Likewise, you shouldn't hire an American or an arab to design a BMW. You might as well ask a Nigerian to forge a Samurai sword.

If you're going to hire a foreigner, hire somebody from another European country, preferably one that has a strong tradition of automotive design: an Italian, a Brit, heck even a Frenchman if you're really short of candidates. Non-Europeans simply do not get European design.

[Titanium3er]

INB4 you're called a racist.

[Mr Tonka]

Well, you'll have a hard time convincing BMW of anything until their sales start to decline. Their world wide sales have been steadily increasing every year.

[GregTheStig]

ITT: OP struggles to cope with the fact that sometimes people from other countries design stuff.

[SES_D]

I literally lol'd. thanks OP

[Ti335]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Well, you'll have a hard time convincing BMW of anything until their sales start to decline. Their world wide sales have been steadily increasing every year.

MB's sales were likewise steadily climbing in the late 90's and early 2000's, while the company was implementing policies that eventually ruined the image of that once legendary brand and left it a distant third among the German luxury autromakers. The market's reaction is always somewhat delayed and a popular brand will be able to ride on its laurels for a few years even if it's making an inferior product (just look at how long GM and Chrysler lasted despite making nothing but utter crap since the 1970's). But it will not last forever.

The tell-tale is that BMW's sales are not growing nearly as fast as Audi's. The latter, without a doubt, will overtake BMW as the world's best selling luxury car brand in the very near future. Audi's design direction is universally praised and is one of the main reasons behind the company's success. And considering that Audi is now also spending a crapload of money on R&D, courtesy of VAG's deep pockets, it will steamroll over BMW just like BMW steamrolled over Mercedes ten years ago unless BMW gets its act together.

Originally Posted by GregTheStig

ITT: OP struggles to cope with the fact that sometimes people from other countries design stuff.

Um, no. My point is that everyone is good at doing their own thing: Americans at making American cars, Japanese at making Japanese cars and Europeans at making European cars. Cultural factors determine one's sense of taste and therefore appreciation of certain design elements. You don't hire a hot dog vendor to work as a gourmet chef. That doesn't mean that hot dogs aren't tasty; it's just a different kind of taste.

[Nkc]

If a brit makes an italian meal, is it still called italian food?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Ti335

MB's sales were likewise steadily climbing in the late 90's and early 2000's, while the company was implementing policies that eventually ruined the image of that once legendary brand and left it a distant third among the German luxury autromakers. The market's reaction is always somewhat delayed and a popular brand will be able to ride on its laurels for a few years even if it's making an inferior product (just look at how long GM and Chrysler lasted despite making nothing but utter crap since the 1970's). But it will not last forever.

The tell-tale is that BMW's sales are not growing nearly as fast as Audi's. The latter, without a doubt, will overtake BMW as the world's best selling luxury car brand in the very near future. Audi's design direction is universally praised and is one of the main reasons behind the company's success. And considering that Audi is now also spending a crapload of money on R&D, courtesy of VAG's deep pockets, it will steamroll over BMW just like BMW steamrolled over Mercedes ten years ago unless BMW gets its act together.


Um, no. My point is that everyone is good at doing their own thing: Americans at making American cars, Japanese at making Japanese cars and Europeans at making European cars. Cultural factors determine one's sense of taste and therefore appreciation of certain design elements. You don't hire a hot dog vendor to work as a gourmet chef. That doesn't mean that hot dogs aren't tasty; it's just a different kind of taste.

I don't disagree with you. Just saying they aren't going to listen until their sales decline and or they stop winning awards. The E92 M3 is a far cry from the E46 M3 in regards to build quality, fit and finish. What you are talking about has been on the books since 2007 and it has alot more to do with just the design of the vehicle.

With regards to Audi, it's their advertising and interiors that are driving their sales, that and some disgruntled BMW owners. It certainly isn't the exterior design. Much more so than any other vehicle their models look nearly identical. A4, A6 and A8 will make the same exact silhouette, just slightly different sizes. And unless Audi makes a dramatic change in drive train, which they never will, they will never be driver's cars. Their marketing hinges on their garbage AWD system too much for them to change it. And that causes them to produce a chassis that causes poor handling characteristics.

BMW has been on a downward slope in terms of build quality which i believe will be more hurtful to them than the exterior design.

[Ti335]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

With regards to Audi, it's their advertising and interiors that are driving their sales, that and some disgruntled BMW owners. It certainly isn't the exterior design. Much more so than any other vehicle their models look nearly identical. A4, A6 and A8 will make the same exact silhouette, just slightly different sizes. And unless Audi makes a dramatic change in drive train, which they never will, they will never be driver's cars. Their marketing hinges on their garbage AWD system too much for them to change it. And that causes them to produce a chassis that causes poor handling characteristics.

Sure, Audi sedans look similar, which goes to show that it's a successful design. Many people want a car that looks modern, elegant and clean, which is something that neither Mercedes nor BMW can offer. As for Audi not being a driver's car, I couldn't disagree more. Have you driven a B8? It is more of a driver's car than the F30 3-series, even though it's a 6-year-old design.

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Sure, Audi sedans look similar, which goes to show that it's a successful design. Many people want a car that looks modern, elegant and clean, which is something that neither Mercedes nor BMW can offer. As for Audi not being a driver's car, I couldn't disagree more. Have you driven a B8? It is more of a driver's car than the F30 3-series, even though it's a 6-year-old design.

i'd take a e9x, e46, or g37 over either the b8 or f30.

[i dunno]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Sadly, there will likely never be a BMW as beautiful and elegant as the E31 8-series or E39 5-series. And that is because someone at BMW got the crazy idea that European cars should be designed by non-Europeans.

ummm the e39 was designed by a japanese guy, joji nagashima

[Matski]

Originally Posted by i dunno

ummm the e39 was designed by a japanese guy, joji nagashima

Same guy did the Z3 and the E90 & E91 I believe.

Originally Posted by Ti335

Sure, Audi sedans look similar, which goes to show that it's a successful design. Many people want a car that looks modern, elegant and clean, which is something that neither Mercedes nor BMW can offer.

Many people don't want a car that looks dull, boring and predictable, so many would not (and are not) choosing Audi's. Just because you prefer the designs, doesn't mean everyone does.... and besides, why would all the car makers only cater for one taste? That reduces the market size.

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

With regards to Audi, it's their advertising and interiors that are driving their sales, that and some disgruntled BMW owners. It certainly isn't the exterior design. Much more so than any other vehicle their models look nearly identical. A4, A6 and A8 will make the same exact silhouette, just slightly different sizes.

I think it's the same thing driving their sales as is driving BMW's, introducing new models all over the place and pushing into markets like China. I don't think it's correct to assume that Audi's sales will continue increasing at the same rate - I would estimate that the closer they get to matching BMW's sales, the harder it will be for them...

... not that the sales race matters a toss to me anyway, but it does to shareholders - which BMW HAS to keep happy, and Audi doesn't really have to worry about.

BMW Group needs to expand at the volume end of the spectrum... MINI doesn't do enough to counter the fact that spoilt child Audi's rich parents (VW) can sustain their own brand of affordable cars, as well as SEAT and Skoda too - aaaand as well as moving Audi downmarket with the A1.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Sure, Audi sedans look similar, which goes to show that it's a successful design. Many people want a car that looks modern, elegant and clean, which is something that neither Mercedes nor BMW can offer. As for Audi not being a driver's car, I couldn't disagree more. Have you driven a B8? It is more of a driver's car than the F30 3-series, even though it's a 6-year-old design.

It's not a sign of successful design, it's a sign of lazy design and a lack pf creativity. If you don't like the A4, then that also rules you out for the A6 and A8 as well. That's not very smart.

Also, I have a B8 S4 and still feel that my 135i was more of a driver's car. The handling may not have been totally up to par (1M fixed that) but I felt much more connected to the car in the 135i.

[F32Fleet]

IMO here's what happened. The Asian brands and to some extend Cadillac closed the performance gap in the mid-2000. That forced BMW to cut costs and they did manage a good job at is as the E90 was priced about the same as the outgoing E46 which was unheard of. Unfortunately the cost cutting was apparent with regards to the interior materials (kudos to them however for not going the way of "leather inserts"). Design is subjective of course. BMW still designs interesting looking cars even with the Euro pedestrian impact design handicap. In addition BMW has expanded its manufacturing base outside of expensive Europe and Germany. They've also re-filled vacancies at their plants with contract workers instead of full time giving them much needed flexibility.

The importance of Asia came into focus as the Euro and US market is essentially saturated. So with growth only to be found in Asia you must design cars that will appeal to that market.

All car companies are international. BMW is no less German than Ford is American.

[Litos]

one of the happiest days of my life was when i traded in my 335.....

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Litos

one of the happiest days of my life was when i traded in my 335.....

Well... what did you trade it for?

[Litos]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Well... what did you trade it for?

traded in my 335 for my 2012 Ram Sport.

then, after having it for 8 months, i traded the Ram Sport for an RT Challenger

so yes, i now have two Challengers.....sig pic is old......

[Litos]

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Few people will dispute the fact that the 2000's saw the release of some of the ugliest BMW's ever made, under the watchful eye of the American buffoon by the name of Chris Bangle, who somehow managed to get appointed as BMW's head of design. His Lebanese successor, Karim Habib, is hardly doing a much better job. While post-Bangle cars are not quite as ugly as, say, the E60 5-series or E83 X3, they are still a far cry from BMW's glory days. Sadly, there will likely never be a BMW as beautiful and elegant as the E31 8-series or E39 5-series. And that is because someone at BMW got the crazy idea that European cars should be designed by non-Europeans. You wouldn't hire a Russian to design the Chevy Camaro or a Swede to pen the next gen Nissan GTR. Likewise, you shouldn't hire an American or an arab to design a BMW. You might as well ask a Nigerian to forge a Samurai sword.

If you're going to hire a foreigner, hire somebody from another European country, preferably one that has a strong tradition of automotive design: an Italian, a Brit, heck even a Frenchman if you're really short of candidates. Non-Europeans simply do not get European design.

FYI, none of this makes sense because after Bangle, Adrian van Hooydonk became design chief of BMW-- which by your logic keeps BMW design being overseen by a European.

As for Karim Habib, he got his education and experience in Canada and Europe, so what exactly is the difference between him and european designeers? Unless you are arguing there is a genetic difference, which is a whole different ballgame and you need to get your head checked.

As for the E39 which I agree, one of the best BMW designs: as "i dunno" said above, it was designed by a Japanese person: Joji Nagashima

Also take note, BMW's German designer Chris Weil designed the 5 Series GT and 3 Series GT while their Iranian designer Nader Faghihzadeh did the 6 series and 6GC... have fun with that one.

[KingOfJericho]

Oh yeah Litos, it was your pics of your RT from the house thread that had me building one on the Dodge site. haha

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Mark

FYI, none of this makes sense because after Bangle, Adrian van Hooydonk became design chief of BMW-- which by your logic keeps BMW design being overseen by a European.

As for Karim Habib, he got his education and experience in Canada and Europe, so what exactly is the difference between him and european designeers? Unless you are arguing there is a genetic difference, which is a whole different ballgame and you need to get your head checked.

As for the E39 which I agree, one of the best BMW designs: as "i dunno" said above, it was designed by a Japanese person: Joji Nagashima

Also take note, BMW's German designer Chris Weil designed the 5 Series GT and 3 Series GT while their Iranian designer Nader Faghihzadeh did the 6 series and 6GC... have fun with that one.

pwned.

[reeltime]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

pwned.

Looooool +1