[hl0m4n]

as you guys may know my mom is in search of a commuter car. our first thought along with many other people in my shoes would be lets get a hybrid. i too thought it was the best way to go.

but after doing more research it seems it may not be from many variables such as some people not being able to get anywhere near close the epa ratings (i know you have to be really cautious to get the epa but im talking not even close).

maybe a fuel efficient non hybrid is better in the long run then the hybrid versions? even with the nice tax return you get maybe it is really just a huge hype and great markting tactics.

well i read all the edmunds, msn money, etc but i want to get real feedback from you guys.

so what are your thoughts on this, opinions, experience?

[Year's_End]

Payoff takes way too long for the premium you pay. That's just my opinion.

You'll have the idea that you're saving money at the pump, but how long does it take to recover that ~5k you dumped for the hybrid powertrain?

[DFW_M]

From the Republican perspective -- no it is not worth since everything is calculated in Dollars. It takes too long to equalize savings with extra paid when purchased.

From NORMAL human's view -- yes. Less gas useage, less polution, less Earth destruction, etc...

Similarly with the solar panels -- expensive, Republicans don't like them. Never mind that those and other alternative energy sources can save the World...

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by dr325i

From the Republican perspective -- no it is not worth since everything is calculated in Dollars. It takes too long to equalize savings with extra paid when purchased.

From NORMAL human's view -- yes. Less gas useage, less polution, less Earth destruction, etc...

Similarly with the solar panels -- expensive, Republicans don't like them. Never mind that those and other alternative energy sources can save the World...

way to generalize an entire party

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by dr325i

From the Republican perspective -- no it is not worth since everything is calculated in Dollars. It takes too long to equalize savings with extra paid when purchased.

From NORMAL human's view -- yes. Less gas useage, less polution, less Earth destruction, etc...

Similarly with the solar panels -- expensive, Republicans don't like them. Never mind that those and other alternative energy sources can save the World...

The thread WAS a simple question.

As bl said the reports I have read/seen mention the time it takes to balance out is long. If she plans on driving it until the wheels fall off then yes it should be worth investigating the numbers.

My MCS was 26K and I am getting 29 in the city. The re-sale numbers on Mini's are some of the highest in the industry too.
It is also a blast to scoot around in.

g/l

[Guildenstern]

My fiancee's family has two Hybrids (First gen Civic and Accord) and I can't tell people this enough.
It's Rubbish.

Unless the commute is all city driving you'll be on the gas engine the whole time anyway, and any saveings you get from the akerman cycle engine will be counteracted by the weight of the hybrid system.

If you want to talk environment we could start with the manufacture and disposal of those batteries.

And as for driving quality, so far only the Ford Fusion has been noted as being anything like good. Hybrids have slippery low rolling friction tires, and excessive weight issues due to the hybrid system.

If you are going to look at a hybrid I'd say check out the Fusion because it seems to be getting ok reviews, But there are a lot of conventional cars that will provide good efficiency without being overly complicated.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

but after doing more research it seems it may not be from many variables such as some people not being able to get anywhere near close the epa ratings (i know you have to be really cautious to get the epa but im talking not even close).

Your research has led you astray. I have a lot of seat time in a Prius, and have had no problems matching or beating the current EPA ratings of 48/45. The car will regularly see over 50MPG in the city, and that's driving normally. I made a serious effort to see how bad it could get, and after flogging the car for a coulpe of days I managed 38MPG. That's better mileage than you'll get in anything else it's size.

Now, with the current gas prices, it takes a while to cover the $2-3k premium you're paying for a hybrid over a comparable sedan, but I think most people realize $2 gas isn't going to stick around forever.

Back when gas really spiked it was costing me about $100 to go 480 miles in the 135i (20MPG average), and at the same time it was costing my GF about $40 to go the same distance in the Prius. It will do that on one 10.5 gallon fill-up if you're in town a lot.

Fuel is a variable cost that we can't control. If you want to minimize the impact of that variable on your budget, hybrids do the job. The green aspect is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Guildenstern

My fiancee's family has two Hybrids (First gen Civic and Accord) and I can't tell people this enough.
It's Rubbish.

Unless the commute is all city driving you'll be on the gas engine the whole time anyway, and any saveings you get from the akerman cycle engine will be counteracted by the weight of the hybrid system.

If you want to talk environment we could start with the manufacture and disposal of those batteries.

And as for driving quality, so far only the Ford Fusion has been noted as being anything like good. Hybrids have slippery low rolling friction tires, and excessive weight issues due to the hybrid system.

If you are going to look at a hybrid I'd say check out the Fusion because it seems to be getting ok reviews, But there are a lot of conventional cars that will provide good efficiency without being overly complicated.

Your posts are generally more informed than this. The batteries are nearly 100% recycled, and the dealers pay you to bring them back. Current hybrids use standard tires, just like every other economy car. What non-hybrid vehicle with the interior volume of a Prius will come anywhere close to 45MPG average?

As for reliability, they're one of the most relieable vehicles on the road today, with near ZERO battery replacements under warranty (or out for that matter), and also enjoy a very good resale value.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by dr325i

From the Republican perspective -- no it is not worth since everything is calculated in Dollars. It takes too long to equalize savings with extra paid when purchased.

From NORMAL human's view -- yes. Less gas useage, less polution, less Earth destruction, etc...

Similarly with the solar panels -- expensive, Republicans don't like them. Never mind that those and other alternative energy sources can save the World...

So you are one of the smug hybrid thumping clowns.

If you take manufacturing and disposal into consideration then (current, Prius) hybrids are not the correct answer. I do think that hybrids are a step in finding "the answer" but as it stands you can do better with a small diesel then with the newest hybrid, all without the toxic process of making (and disposing of) giant battery packs.

As battery technology progresses (thanks in part to hybrid development, but probably more thanks to smart phone and lap top development), and as hybrid integration improves (I think GM's system it pretty cool and comparatively simple for full sized trucks and suvs) some good options will be available.

I think with current technology a diesel/electric hybrid would be the best. As soon as ethanol becomes a viable source hybrids will be replaced with electric city cars and people who have to travel distances will do so on internal combustion engines with alternative fuels.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Your posts are generally more informed than this. The batteries are nearly 100% recycled, and the dealers pay you to bring them back. Current hybrids use standard tires, just like every other economy car. What non-hybrid vehicle with the interior volume of a Prius will come anywhere close to 45MPG average?

As for reliability, they're one of the most relieable vehicles on the road today, with near ZERO battery replacements under warranty (or out for that matter), and also enjoy a very good resale value.

Jetta TDI

[lib]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Jetta TDI

^ This.

If you're truly after an efficient car, get one of the new diesels. They give you similar mpg ratings without adding all of the cost, complexity and weight of a hybrid system.

[just4kickz]

lol everythings been said already.

worth is subjective... if helping the environment a little is worth a lot to ur mom, then maybe its worth it... if your talking simply about money then like was said before... it'll take some time for you to recover the investment.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Jetta TDI

It really took 10 ranting, bullshit-logged posts for this to be mentioned? New diesels like the Jetta TDI are definitely the way to go. Great gas mileage and you don't have to give up your balls to drive it.

[TK-421]

Oh, and for the hippies that think they're fuckin' Captain Planet by driving a Prius...

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

[Guildenstern]

The Jetta TDI is great, I also like the Honda Fit. I don't think it's mileage is as good but its utility is Amazing.

[HebbNH]

Originally Posted by news 4 u

Oh, and for the hippies that think they're fuckin' Captain Planet by driving a Prius...
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

Captain Planet, he's our hero, gonna take pollution down to zero. Man I miss that show!

That article was a good read. Thanks for posting.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by HebbNH

Captain Planet, he's our hero, gonna take pollution down to zero. Man I miss that show!

That article was a good read. Thanks for posting.

Remember the guy with the monkey? I felt sorry for him.

I can see it being harder for people to buy diesels. Hybrids upfront look like the better buy. 1.) Regular gas is cheaper than diesel 2.) You have these 18-19k hybrids coming out now 3.) Their batteries last around 150,000 miles 4.) VW's diesels arent getting as good mpg in the U.S. as they did in the past.

[BlackSapphireZ]

just drive your current car like you'd drive a hybrid, and you'll get a good gas mileage

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Jetta TDI

Jetta TDI won't come close to a Prius if you're around town very much. We had three cars in my old office; a Prius, a Jetta TDI, and a Passat TDI. The Prius had a lifetime average fuel consumption of just over 47MPG (started after a 5k mile break in period). The Jetta was under 41MPG, and the fuel cost was much higher. The Prius will match it on the highway, and KILLS it around town, not to mention it's got a LOT less usable space and isn't as comfortable for four adults. The Passat was more comfortable than the Prius for passengers, but it still didn't have as much cargo space, and wasn't even in the same ballpark when it came to mileage. They're all slow as shit, but the Jetta would pull about a car length on the Prius to 70MPH (at which point the drag race became so boring we'd give up). The Jetta cost about the same as the Prius, and has higher emissions.

On top of that, the Jetta was in the shop constantly. What the diesel engine makes up for in reliability, VW fucks up with the rest of the car. It was plagued by sensor issues, problems with the ingnition, and then all the typical stuff that goes wrong with a MkIV VW.


Some of you guys really have some serious misconceptions about hybrids. They're nothing more than energy recovery devices. What on earth could have have against recovering energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat in the braking system?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by news 4 u

Oh, and for the hippies that think they're fuckin' Captain Planet by driving a Prius...




http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

That story has been debunked so many times you really look foolish for even posting it. It was a complete farce. The figured the average lifespan of the Prius at 70k miles, and the Hummer at 250k.

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That story has been debunked so many times you really look foolish for even posting it. It was a complete farce. The figured the average lifespan of the Prius at 70k miles, and the Hummer at 250k.

Not calling you out on this, but you have any sources? They would provide an interesting read.

[blue2fire]

The new Jetta TDI is unbelievably silent for a diesel or for anybody used to the old one. I would easily have one over a Prius.