[BimmerDKT]

My 2008 E90 M3 is showing it's age. 88K miles ... clutch is VERY tired. Valve covers have been weeping for a while. Oil analysis has been ok ... high metals, Cu still low .... but, it's probably time to do the rod bearings. TBA's still work fine, but I have to reset them through diagnostics every other week. Again .. it's probably time. A few other knick-knack items to fix ... the typical BMW nickel-and-dime you to death stuff. All together, probably $6K in parts ... I usually do my own work, but kids soccer schedules and work are basically eating all my free time. So, probably another $6K for reputable local shop to do the work.

I'm not a track rat anymore ... but I occasionally will splurge on a track weekend every other year or so. I used to race cars in NASA and SCCA. Not interested in doing that again. Mostly I just like to kill tires wherever it's safe to explore limits and not get the attention of local 5-0. That said ... I did go through the exercise of pricing out a full build on the E90, and the total comes out to ~$45K at a mid-level spec, daily driven sled.

So here's my dilemma. If I build out a beast, I'm already more than 1/2 way to a CT5V BW ... and I'm working on a racecar every weekend again. I "could" do it, but I think my wife would never get naked for me again ... and I've been on the slippery slope of racing cars before, so I know where this trail ends. I keep looking at the CT5V BW, and it kinda looks like the Goldilocks zone for recovering-racecar-driver Dad's like me.

I do have some concerns about the CT5V BW. #1 - It's big ... like quite a bit bigger than my E90. It's bigger than a G80 and the E39 M5. I know the quick response is "go with the CT4V BW then" ... but I just need that LT4 panache. My racecars ranged from RX-7 to C5 Z06 to CRX Si to LX Fox body, and the V8 is the only place that feels like home. #2 - It's quite a bit heavier. 4092lbs vs 3538lbs. I do enjoy the tossable characteristics of the E90, and it's sporty feel. I've driven an F80 M3 and an F90 M5 on track, and they're great, but different. #3 - It's a lotta cash for GM-spec interior and compromised interior space. I'll give GM credit for slowly getting better and better over the years .... but it's still not quite there in terms of getting to the BMW standard for luxury interior (let alone Audi or MB level). And the Alpha platform still short-changes the rear cabin and trunk space ... which is not a deal breaker, but kinda annoying when you're talking about spending $130K.

Any insights from those who've jumped into the BW models would be greatly appreciated. Or insights from those that have fully built out their E9x M3 and what the day-to-day maintenance looks like. Apologies for the length, if you made it this far.

[Efthreeoh]

Go for the Caddy and keep the naked.

Easy choice.

[Alfisti]

I'll be that guy. Why do you want to spend near 100 fucking beans on a modern car that's just going to annoy the living shit out of you with beeps, bops, warnings, tech this, tech fucking that and a whole host of intrusions that do nothing but ruin the experience for you? Then you gotta deal with the fugly BW front light treatment.

The track rat car is a red herring, not apples to apples at all. Spend $15K on the BMW, do it right and drive it until it fucking dies with $85K in your pocket. Or, do the BMW right and buy a ready to go race car for far, far less than BW money. I don't know how any of you here can deal with modern cars, they are all hell bent of driving you insane with beeps and bells and whistles and beeps and screaming and warnings and touch screens and no buttons etc....100k for that... no thanks.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I'll be that guy. Why do you want to spend near 100 fucking beans on a modern car that's just going to annoy the living shit out of you with beeps, bops, warnings, tech this, tech fucking that and a whole host of intrusions that do nothing but ruin the experience for you? Then you gotta deal with the fugly BW front light treatment.

The track rat car is a red herring, not apples to apples at all. Spend $15K on the BMW, do it right and drive it until it fucking dies with $85K in your pocket. Or, do the BMW right and buy a ready to go race car for far, far less than BW money. I don't know how any of you here can deal with modern cars, they are all hell bent of driving you insane with beeps and bells and whistles and beeps and screaming and warnings and touch screens and no buttons etc....100k for that... no thanks.

Fair point. I don't find all the new technology stuff that invasive. And a lot of it can be disabled. For me, the question is about time and fun factor. My time is valuable ... I've spent a large portion of my 20's wrenching/thrashing on my race cars. If I didn't have a day job and a family, I'd just buy parts and start doing the work. But that's just to get it back to normal E90 M3 status ... which is a tad slow, soft, and lacking in torque. I am admittedly a little bored with it.

The BW is only V8 manual sedan left on the market. And unlike the G80 M3, I actually like the way it looks. It looks like it is a ton of fun. But I'd like to hear from other BMW enthusiasts on whether it's worth the cash commitment ... or if a fully built out E90 is still a better car for a degenerate who just likes to drift around corners with the kids in back.

[x622]

Forget all this noise, go to racing junk and get yourself an actual race car in the budget that fits you that you can just maintain rather than keep "building". A CT5BW would be fun to shred the tires on, but will be a compromise car. If you're ok with that, it might not be a bad choice.

Factoring depreciation and consumables I'm gonna guess it's going to be a wash compared to keeping that E92, but more expensive when it breaks.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

normal E90 M3 status ... which is a tad slow, soft, and lacking in torque. I am admittedly a little bored with it.

Aha, so there is more to it.

Alternative, used 991.1. Will be way cheaper than BW if we are counting depreciation.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by x622

Forget all this noise, go to racing junk and get yourself an actual race car in the budget that fits you that you can just maintain rather than keep "building". A CT5BW would be fun to shred the tires on, but will be a compromise car. If you're ok with that, it might not be a bad choice.

Factoring depreciation and consumables I'm gonna guess it's going to be a wash compared to keeping that E92, but more expensive when it breaks.

I raced NASA CMC in my 20's. Did a bunch of SCCA stuff too. I loved it. But I'm done with wrenching on a racecar. If I need to scratch that W2W itch, I'll go sign up with Driver's Edge or Chin and run the black group for a weekend at COTA. But trying to maintain a whip for a series and actually be competitive ... maybe after the kids are out of the house.

I do wonder about the depreciation bit, as these are going to be last of breed. The V-Wagons have held up quite nicely. I agree that the consummables and maintenance things will likely be a wash.

[Donatello.]

The answer is clearly BW, but wait for the market to correct if you can. These cars always drop like rocks

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

Fair point. I don't find all the new technology stuff that invasive. And a lot of it can be disabled. For me, the question is about time and fun factor. My time is valuable ... I've spent a large portion of my 20's wrenching/thrashing on my race cars. If I didn't have a day job and a family, I'd just buy parts and start doing the work. But that's just to get it back to normal E90 M3 status ... which is a tad slow, soft, and lacking in torque. I am admittedly a little bored with it.

The BW is only V8 manual sedan left on the market. And unlike the G80 M3, I actually like the way it looks. It looks like it is a ton of fun. But I'd like to hear from other BMW enthusiasts on whether it's worth the cash commitment ... or if a fully built out E90 is still a better car for a degenerate who just likes to drift around corners with the kids in back.

You will only get biased answers from BMW people.

The BW is the 1 car that I would replace my Hellcat with for DD duties, but I am not going to pay $100k for it. For a weekend toy? I want something like the R8

[Alfisti]

I'm not a BMW person at all, I just can't cop 100K for a freakin 4500lb sedan. The M3 is wonderfully analog, why go digital? I actually just went through this dilemma a few years ago and settled on a saab beater and a 997 as a toy.

[Germanauto]

Neither

Alfa Giulia QV or a new M2/M3.

All are in the ~3800 lb ballpark. The QV retains the tossable compact nature of your E90, with much quicker steering.

[Efthreeoh]

If you can afford to buy a high-performance $100,000+ and worry about the depreciation hit, then you are misguided in the first place regarding the purchase.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Neither

Alfa Giulia QV or a new M2/M3.

All are in the ~3800 lb ballpark. The QV retains the tossable compact nature of your E90, with much quicker steering.

No manual, no care. The G80 M3 is a fine car, but the nose is one that only a mother could love. Also related ... I've yet to hear an S58 sound good. QV is due for a refresh. I'd consider it if they would bring the manual stateside.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you can afford to buy a high-performance $100,000+ and worry about the depreciation hit, then you are misguided in the first place regarding the purchase.

Agreed. Not worried about the depreciation hit. I am ok with letting someone else take that depreciation hit though. Nothing wrong with a girl who's been ridden hard before.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

.

I do have some concerns about the CT5V BW. #1 - It's big ... like quite a bit bigger than my E90. It's bigger than a G80 and the E39 M5. I know the quick response is "go with the CT4V BW then" ... but I just need that LT4 panache. My racecars ranged from RX-7 to C5 Z06 to CRX Si to LX Fox body, and the V8 is the only place that feels like home. #2 - It's quite a bit heavier. 4092lbs vs 3538lbs. I do enjoy the tossable characteristics of the E90, and it's sporty feel. I've driven an F80 M3 and an F90 M5 on track, and they're great, but different. #3 - It's a lotta cash for GM-spec interior and compromised interior space. I'll give GM credit for slowly getting better and better over the years .... but it's still not quite there in terms of getting to the BMW standard for luxury interior (let alone Audi or MB level). And the Alpha platform still short-changes the rear cabin and trunk space ... which is not a deal breaker, but kinda annoying when you're talking about spending $130K.

I don't think this is really the concern you are making it out to be here. Sure, it won't be nimble like a miata or even 911...but, the GM steering is good. Real good. Like the only mainstream cars rivaling Porsche electric steering and that somehow doesn't suffer from the dead-spots and ridiculous stuff BMW designed into theirs. Just look at the new Darkhorse vs. the old 1LE, Ford still hasn't figured it out either. Typically the heavier cars will feel better at speed anyway, maybe not carve the tightest arc, but you won't likely be in a situation where you are trying to tear the car back and forth at the limits of it's grip, the "fun" you have with it will likely be well within it's grip capability. GM also has dynamics dialed. If you watched/read the blackwing reviews...this seems to be unanimous. If you are going to go for a big car, I don't think it'll disappoint. I think interior differences are more about long-term bias than real quantifiable differences. There are differences...but they are much more "in the noise" these days. My 2SS interior is nicer than a friends Cayman I sat it. Sure, it's "just" a Cayman...but there's also not this giant chasm that people make there out to be between German cars and others. People kind of flip out when I drive them in my "Kia", as in "OMG, I never knew Kia made a car like this!?"...but it's like a carbon-copy of my BMW 4 series from a couple years ago. Point is the giant chasm/gap just doesn't exist anymore. There are people though that still see what they want to see, no matter what is in front of them.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i think you need an 812 superfast


no f8x?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

I don't think this is really the concern you are making it out to be here. Sure, it won't be nimble like a miata or even 911...but, the GM steering is good. Real good. Like the only mainstream cars rivaling Porsche electric steering and that somehow doesn't suffer from the dead-spots and ridiculous stuff BMW designed into theirs. Just look at the new Darkhorse vs. the old 1LE, Ford still hasn't figured it out either. Typically the heavier cars will feel better at speed anyway, maybe not carve the tightest arc, but you won't likely be in a situation where you are trying to tear the car back and forth at the limits of it's grip, the "fun" you have with it will likely be well within it's grip capability. GM also has dynamics dialed. If you watched/read the blackwing reviews...this seems to be unanimous. If you are going to go for a big car, I don't think it'll disappoint. I think interior differences are more about long-term bias than real quantifiable differences. There are differences...but they are much more "in the noise" these days. My 2SS interior is nicer than a friends Cayman I sat it. Sure, it's "just" a Cayman...but there's also not this giant chasm that people make there out to be between German cars and others. People kind of flip out when I drive them in my "Kia", as in "OMG, I never knew Kia made a car like this!?"...but it's like a carbon-copy of my BMW 4 series from a couple years ago. Point is the giant chasm/gap just doesn't exist anymore. There are people though that still see what they want to see, no matter what is in front of them.

Well said.

Ever since Cadillac started making sports sedans and stomping on BMW's head, the car enthusiast retort has been "yeah, but the interior sucks". Then when you actually drive a Cadillac you realize it is a better experience than what BMW offers.

[snakes1021]

Meh IDK about that, I would say there are many cars better than many cars. I dont think cadi is by any means stomping on BMWs head. They are obese lots of noise, more power, but does that matter when the power is eaten up the asphalt leaving streaks?

I ran into a CT5 BW and was not impressed, never made it past my rear 1/4 panel. Not saying my car is fast or the BW is slow. Maybe he didnt know how to manipulate the gear box. I thought I was gonna get walked and didnt.

So IMO lots of money, lots of noise, no traction. Sticky tires may help IDK.

This was in my S2 OTS tuned M4. 70-140~

[pbonsalb]

If the E90 M3 replacement must be a V8 manual, I can’t think of any other new cars besides the Blackwing. I had an E90 M3 manual for 10 years and DIY’ed most of the maintenance you mention (rod bearings, valve covers) and some upgrades like subframe bushings, springs, shocks, exhaust, intake, swaybars, brake lines, front BBK, etc.). Bought a flywheel and clutch but sold the car before I needed to install them.

I wanted a newer, more comfortable and larger, faster, AWD car and bought an F90 M5. I don’t track it, but am aware of a very small number of owners who do. No manual for the F90 M5, but the F10 M5 had the option if you want to split the difference between new and 15 years old.

[ShocknAwe]

How about the IS500? I'm at the point where is rather have something reasonably chuckable than a bloated floaty manual land barge.

Second the comments about the QV, though I'd think about garage time vs driving time, no fun owning a car while it's in the shop.

[Alfisti]

Funny this came up as a friend of mine is turning 60 and wants a "me" car. He settled on a Blackwing CT5, 2022 MY with low miles for 127K CDN plus taxes so a solid $140K car. He has a thing for big powerful sedans but over the course of an hour I talked him out of it. Well i shouldn't say that as I kept repeating that he is of an age and stage in life where he needs to do what his heart says and money be damned.

But I said, imho, the money is absolutely insane. Now for this guy it would be a summer ride only, kids leaving the nest etc and i said chief, why are you dropping 140 beans on a car that will likely depreciate hard when you could get something really interesting for near half that or even go 911. The car I mentioned was an F-Type, which is basically the same ethos as a blackwing in a much sexier body, that's set him back about 90K all in. Or, he could go towards 991.1 territory.

He wants the Caddy but agrees the price is insane so now he is on hold. I don't buy that these cars will hold value, the wagon did because wagon but 140K now will be 90K in a few years imho.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by RM7

I don't think this is really the concern you are making it out to be here. Sure, it won't be nimble like a miata or even 911...but, the GM steering is good. Real good. Like the only mainstream cars rivaling Porsche electric steering and that somehow doesn't suffer from the dead-spots and ridiculous stuff BMW designed into theirs. Just look at the new Darkhorse vs. the old 1LE, Ford still hasn't figured it out either. Typically the heavier cars will feel better at speed anyway, maybe not carve the tightest arc, but you won't likely be in a situation where you are trying to tear the car back and forth at the limits of it's grip, the "fun" you have with it will likely be well within it's grip capability. GM also has dynamics dialed. If you watched/read the blackwing reviews...this seems to be unanimous. If you are going to go for a big car, I don't think it'll disappoint. I think interior differences are more about long-term bias than real quantifiable differences. There are differences...but they are much more "in the noise" these days. My 2SS interior is nicer than a friends Cayman I sat it. Sure, it's "just" a Cayman...but there's also not this giant chasm that people make there out to be between German cars and others. People kind of flip out when I drive them in my "Kia", as in "OMG, I never knew Kia made a car like this!?"...but it's like a carbon-copy of my BMW 4 series from a couple years ago. Point is the giant chasm/gap just doesn't exist anymore. There are people though that still see what they want to see, no matter what is in front of them.

Agreed. I've been with the minority over the past few generations of BMW's in that BMW has lost the plot, and GM is quietly eating their lunch. The E90 has been such a sweetheart from a driver's perspective ... it's just slow nowadays. The numb steering on the F80/F10/G80/F90 is what it is unfortunately ... I think I read a quote from a BMW exec that stated that this is what their customers wanted according to their surveys. On the interior parts ... GM has come a long ways. (I owned a C5 Z06, and that was the definition of parts bin interior complete with Tonka Toy sized buttons.) But as an exercise, build up a BW on their website and tell me that the interior styling and the premium option rubber floormats don't rub you the wrong way. Like I said, it's not a deal breaker, but for $100K+ ... a tad irritating. The 2025 updates are apparently addressing this, so maybe I just build up the E90 and wait.

I've watched all the reviews too, and I think it's a no-brainer. I'm just selfishly looking for the first-hand experience confirmation that this is a no-brainer. Thx.