[Watching The World Burn]

Anyone think nurses have gotten far lazier than they used to? Or you think this is just everyone and not just specific to the nursing industry?

I do believe there are some good nurses still, but man, it seems like it has taken a real nose dive in terms of the overall quality of nurses. Its like the majority expect someone else to do their job. My wife is a doctor at a hospital and came in to do a procedure and the room is a mess, completely dirty, and the bedding is obviously used and the patient is waiting to come in.

So she looks at the nurse and asks something to the effect of where is the clean bedding / why is this not changed? And the nurse goes "Oh, the sheets are down that way in X room.". As though my wife was going to walk down there, do the nurse's job for her, and then come back and do the job my wife is paid to do. And the nurse is about to walk off to go do some more "charting", and so my wife stopped her and said "OK, can you get it changed then". And the nurse stares at her, rolls her eyes, gives some attitude and huffs off. Got changed though.

Far from an outlier too based on all the stories I hear. If a patient has a PSW and a nurse, and the patient needs to use the washroom, the nurse will literally tell the patient to call the PSW because they get their backs up. My wife has actually seen this happen.

Nurses are always...charting...charting...must do my charting...grr.

And then the layers of nursing administration in a hospital - it's crazy! Literally, layers upon layers, just creating busy work so they can create a new position to fill - no wonder healthcare is so expensive.

[XutvJet]

To some extent, yes. I get sometimes get a union worker "that's not in my job description" vibe from some nurses.

I also think that most hospitals are under staffed with nurses and more and more responsibility is being pushed on them which is dangerous for the patients and a high personal risk to the nurse in terms of potential negligence; meaning is becomes easier for the hospital admin to blame the nurse than the hospital itself in the event of malpractice. I think the understaffing is generally related to the for-profit hospital model and I've noticed this way before the times of COVID.

I think you're spot on with the charting, paperwork, etc. too. Data, data, data. It can be a good thing, but if you automate everything and try and capture and analyze every single data point, it actually can make things more cumbersome, confusing, and doesn't let people actually use their brains with diagnosing and responding to a patient. The same goes for most automotive techs. They are no longer really trained to troubleshoot. They just swap parts based on what the car computers and repair manual tell them.

My experience is based on being in the hospital a significant number of times and for very long durations dealing with my aging parents since 2012.

[ryan stewart]

Its the job market, hospital administration has built the model around temporary labor, so a lot of nurses are contractors (or leaving to make more being contractors). It was already happening a lot before but since COVID its been blown up. They are there for their contract, knowing its going to end, and then will move onto the next contract. And the ones who cant just hop from hotspot to hotspot got burned out and left, so there is a huge shortage.

[DrFerry]

In one word, YES. I hope the Allopathic, J.D. Rockefeller / J.P. Morgan Petro-Chemical based Health-Scare system burns to the ground after what the world has been put through with their worldwide shenanigans during the alpha-numeric plandemic. They can cut you, burn you, or drug you, and that's it folks. Oh, and don't forget to pay on the way out 'cos your 15 minutes are up.

The Health-Scare system is not about health or wellness. It should be called Sick-Care. Ever hear a Doctor or a Nurse say "we can cure you?" Of course not that would ruin their business model. "They" need you to keep coming back. Ask yourself who are "they".

I learned the hard way after two weeks at MAYO - and over a decade long sickness - that most Doctors have absolutely no idea what they're doing. According to the Harvard Medical Review 95% of first time diagnosis are wrong! Prior to 1913 - when the oil companies took over the medical school curriculum, medical school was actually about learning health and wellness.

Did you know the hippocratic oath to "do no harm" is now optional at many medical schools? Once the Federal Reserve Banksters -> and the oil company tycoons <- set their sites on turning hospitals into businesses (as money making centers) real and genuine cures were hidden. Today Hospital Doctors report to Business Majors and Marketing Execs. Ever wonder why Health-Scare costs so much in America? Darn I wonder how long this post will stay up. Probably had too much coffee. Oh well.

Don't believe me? Ask a Doctor what should a human eat? They will say or mumble "whatever you want", or "I don't know because nutrition isn't taught in Med-School", or "Don't eat fat" (which is incorrect).. Then ask a Veterinarian, "what does a horse need to eat or a pig?" and they will tell you the complete nutritional profile for the animal to thrive.. So most Doctors don't even know what is the optimum nutritional profile for a human being...!

I could go and on. To all of those reading this who have experienced the nightmare of the modern Health-Scare my heart goes out to you. Sure they can fix bones and car wrecks, and do expensive heart surgery, BUT if the population is well their business dries up and therein lies the dilemma. Wait until you get really, really sick then you will remember this post and wonder...

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

Its the job market, hospital administration has built the model around temporary labor, so a lot of nurses are contractors (or leaving to make more being contractors). It was already happening a lot before but since COVID its been blown up. They are there for their contract, knowing its going to end, and then will move onto the next contract. And the ones who cant just hop from hotspot to hotspot got burned out and left, so there is a huge shortage.

Yep, and like any other industry, you get what you pay for.

[Watching The World Burn]

Oh, hospital admin are a huge problem I think. A lot of them are former nurses too (well, I guess they still are nurses, just not doing "official nursing" anymore as their job), which is why it is puzzling.

I feel like you could cut so much bloat out of the hospital by slicing probably 1/3 to half the admin workers and I bet you could get the hospital to run probably the same as it did before once you get rid of the excess red tape the admins created for themselves to justify their existence. And then hospitals would have more money to either pay nurses more to retain them, or hire more nurses and ease a crunch...I don't know.

But yeah, admin in the hospital is a huge drain on the system as well.

[jmg]

YES and it's one of the reasons my wife retired early. It's not necessarily the nurses' fault, it's the administration's understaffing to save money. Hospital administrations would rather patient care suffer then call in more nurses. And even when they do, it's a crap shoot if anyone is available. It's reactionary instead of preventative. The nurses and the patient suffer because administration are cheap bastards. Here's the worst part: When the nurse to patient ratio is off, the neglect is exponential. Nurses are expected to chart chart chart, which isn't a big deal except now you have more patients than normal to chart for, AND they get reprimanded for staying late and getting paid OT for charting. So, shift hours that should be dedicated to patient care, are now used for charting. The logical solution is to overlap nurse shifts to account for charting and allow for uninterrupted patient care, but that costs money. My wife was a RN for 15 years and LOVED her patients and loved her job. It because more about charting and juggling more and more patients instead of actual care. She was heartbroken that the job devolved into basically fast food medical care.

[RickFLM4]

This thread should be interesting.

[Germanauto]

I'm a Physician. I don't know how things "used" to be but in my experience it really is a mixed bag. A lot of nurses are nice and care about patients, but a significant portion of them are also entitled Karens. In my Residency I've come across some who try and bully Residents, knowing that if the Resident says anything back they can cry foul and get the Resident written up. Nursing as a profession certainly has a political aspect (e.g unions) and a bullying/Karen culture.

In my opinion most of it comes down to a lack of education. Really anybody can become a nurse. To become a Physician, high-level Engineer, IT professional etc. one must go to a reputable 4-year undergraduate university and pursue post-graduate training for many years. Whereas most nurses go to some bullshit community college and proceed to carry themselves like heroes. There are nurses who go to 4-year institutions, they tend to be more intelligent and professional, eventually pursing Nurse Practitioner or CRNA roles.

I will say that the real devils are hospital/corporate administrators. They are responsible for the majority of healthcare expenditures yet do very little that actually benefits patients and healthcare professionals. They've found every way they could to squeeze Physicians, Nurses, etc. both financially and professionally. We are always expected to do more work for less compensation while they take a piece of the pie for themselves. I personally received a big fat $0 in hazard pay from my employer during peak Covid times, when we were risking our lives by even going to work. They'd rather put up banners in the hospital saying "you're all heroes" rather than putting their money where their mouth is. Same goes for politicians. The state/federal government didn't do shit for us either.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

In one word, YES. I hope the Allopathic, J.D. Rockefeller / J.P. Morgan Petro-Chemical based Health-Scare system burns to the ground after what the world has been put through with their worldwide shenanigans during the alpha-numeric plandemic. They can cut you, burn you, or drug you, and that's it folks. Oh, and don't forget to pay on the way out 'cos your 15 minutes are up.

The Health-Scare system is not about health or wellness. It should be called Sick-Care. Ever hear a Doctor or a Nurse say "we can cure you?" Of course not that would ruin their business model. "They" need you to keep coming back. Ask yourself who are "they".

I learned the hard way after two weeks at MAYO - and over a decade long sickness - that most Doctors have absolutely no idea what they're doing. According to the Harvard Medical Review 95% of first time diagnosis are wrong! Prior to 1913 - when the oil companies took over the medical school curriculum, medical school was actually about learning health and wellness.

Did you know the hippocratic oath to "do no harm" is now optional at many medical schools? Once the Federal Reserve Banksters -> and the oil company tycoons <- set their sites on turning hospitals into businesses (as money making centers) real and genuine cures were hidden. Today Hospital Doctors report to Business Majors and Marketing Execs. Ever wonder why Health-Scare costs so much in America? Darn I wonder how long this post will stay up. Probably had too much coffee. Oh well.

Don't believe me? Ask a Doctor what should a human eat? They will say or mumble "whatever you want", or "I don't know because nutrition isn't taught in Med-School", or "Don't eat fat" (which is incorrect).. Then ask a Veterinarian, "what does a horse need to eat or a pig?" and they will tell you the complete nutritional profile for the animal to thrive.. So most Doctors don't even know what is the optimum nutritional profile for a human being...!

I could go and on. To all of those reading this who have experienced the nightmare of the modern Health-Scare my heart goes out to you. Sure they can fix bones and car wrecks, and do expensive heart surgery, BUT if the population is well their business dries up and therein lies the dilemma. Wait until you get really, really sick then you will remember this post and wonder...

I agree on your comments regarding hospital admin. However you're misguided if you think that keeping people sick helps Physicians profit. Physician salaries account for only 7-8% of total healthcare expenditures in the United States. Private practice has gone out of favor thanks to corporate medicine and misguided political decisions, so most of us are salaried and as you said, report to MBAs who've never taken a Biology course in their life.

Nutrition is not a large part of our training because it is irrelevant in the setting of acute care, which is how most physicians practice. Only your PCP (and maybe Gastroenterologist) has a role for preventive-health, however there are already Nutritionists for Nutrition counseling. PCPs don't have time to counsel dumbass people on eating their fruits and veggies when they are only allotted 15 mins per patient (which includes time for documentation) x20 patients per day. By the way, we receive zero training on the financial aspects of Medicine, personal finance, etc. But they are more than happy to push irrelevant social justice bullshit on us. I'd much rather have been educated more on Nutrition trust me.

America's obesity epidemic is not the fault of a lack of counseling by PCPs on Nutrition. Corporate America and the unhealthy food they sell and advertise are an integral part of our society and politics. Americans enjoy eating trash and being fat; and politicians, corporate America, hospital admin, etc. are more than happy to let it happen.

[vreihen16]

About 15 years ago, I went into the hospital for a minor issue after not having seen a doctor since the Carter administration.

The hospital's doctor-du-jour who took my case sent me for NPO tests the next afternoon. When the tests were completed, I sat outside the lab in a wheelchair for almost an hour waiting for the "transportation" staff to wheel me back to my room so that I could eat/drink for the first time in 36+ hours. Long story short, the doctor-du-jour walked past and saw me sitting there, and commented that I must be dying of thirst by now. Without any hesitation, he pushed me and the wheelchair into an elevator and back to my room.

Needless to say, I was a regular patient at his practice from that day until he retired from the profession.

I am not going to bash nurses, since I would NEVER want to do their jobs.....

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I'm a Physician. I don't know how things "used" to be but in my experience it really is a mixed bag. A lot of nurses are nice and care about patients, but a significant portion of them are also entitled Karens. In my Residency I've come across some who try and bully Residents, knowing that if the Resident says anything back they can cry foul and get the Resident written up. Nursing as a profession certainly has a political aspect (e.g unions) and a bullying/Karen culture.

In my opinion most of it comes down to a lack of education. Really anybody can become a nurse. To become a Physician, high-level Engineer, IT professional etc. one must go to a reputable 4-year undergraduate university and pursue post-graduate training for many years. Whereas most nurses go to some bullshit community college and proceed to carry themselves like heroes. There are nurses who go to 4-year institutions, they tend to be more intelligent and professional, eventually pursing Nurse Practitioner or CRNA roles.

I will say that the real devils are hospital/corporate administrators. They are responsible for the majority of healthcare expenditures yet do very little that actually benefits patients and healthcare professionals. They've found every way they could to squeeze Physicians, Nurses, etc. both financially and professionally. We are always expected to do more work for less compensation while they take a piece of the pie for themselves. I personally received a big fat $0 in hazard pay from my employer during peak Covid times, when we were risking our lives by even going to work. They'd rather put up banners in the hospital saying "you're all heroes" rather than putting their money where their mouth is. Same goes for politicians. The state/federal government didn't do shit for us either.

My wife was a 4 year university RN, and the influx of less educated LVN/LPN certainly led to a more negative image of the nursing profession overall, especially when the distinction is NOT clear and the fact that, most of the time, out of pure necessity, less qualified LVN/LPN's are sharing shifts with the RN's while having less responsibility and sometimes more pay?

What kind of nurses do hospitals expect to attract if the easiest shortest path reaps the same or better result? It's a general disrespect and under-appreciation of the Nursing position that perpetuates itself when they keep filling it with less qualified people. What the general public doesn't know is that nurses know the patients more than the physicians, and the patients, when in the hospital, are under nurse care more than they are under physician care. Medication is monitored and adjusted more by a nurse than by a physician simply because the physician can't be everywhere at once.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

About 15 years ago, I went into the hospital for a minor issue after not having seen a doctor since the Carter administration.

The hospital's doctor-du-jour who took my case sent me for NPO tests the next afternoon. When the tests were completed, I sat outside the lab in a wheelchair for almost an hour waiting for the "transportation" staff to wheel me back to my room so that I could eat/drink for the first time in 36+ hours. Long story short, the doctor-du-jour walked past and saw me sitting there, and commented that I must be dying of thirst by now. Without any hesitation, he pushed me and the wheelchair into an elevator and back to my room.

Needless to say, I was a regular patient at his practice from that day until he retired from the profession.

I am not going to bash nurses, since I would NEVER want to do their jobs.....

FYI the "transportation" staff aren't Nurses. They are Orderlies, and there's never enough of them. Nurses are always begging for more because they don't want to keep patients waiting anymore than the patients do. This is more cost cutting by the hospital administration.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

They'd rather put up banners in the hospital saying "you're all heroes" rather than putting their money where their mouth is. Same goes for politicians. The state/federal government didn't do shit for us either.

This so much this. They talk a lot about how valuable their nursing staff is, then fuck them over behind the scenes. It's creating a new generation of undereducated trade school nurses, and the patients will suffer while the hospitals get richer.

[Tyga11]

I always thought nurses did more than the actual doctor's. Whenever I've had family in the hospital the doctor would come in the room for like 2 seconds and charge a crazy bill for saying 'hello.'

[infinitekidM2C]

There's definitely some evil nurses out there.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

However, you're misguided if you think that keeping people sick helps Physicians profit.... America's obesity epidemic is not the fault of a lack of counseling by PCPs on Nutrition. Corporate America and the unhealthy food they sell and advertise are an integral part of our society and politics. Americans enjoy eating trash and being fat; and politicians, corporate America, hospital admin, etc. are more than happy to let it happen.

Well.. and with all due respect, you're misguided if you think having patients return time after time doesn't make both independent Physicians AND Hospital Systems more profit and money. Multiple 15 minute visits generates multiple charges, and hence more revenue and profit ($).

Let me reassure you that Nutrition is indeed relevant in the setting of acute care. Physician's salaries are irrelevant to anything I posted - or even the OP posted - but I do sympathize with you especially since Physicians have essentially allowed people who slept their way through college to "manage" them. The question for Physicians becomes, "what are they collectively going to do about it?"

After the aplha-numeric WooFlew nightmare of so called "care" foisted on the American People by practically every major hospital system in every major American city the time is right for Physicians to rise up and push back against the bean counters. Remember how the A.M.A 'threatened' Doctors who prescribed drugs for off-label purposes to combat WooFlew? Yeah, remember that fiasco and America's Frontline Doctors who were literally run out of hospitals? Then there was the nurses and physicians who were fired for not using the protocols that the MBA's, the G'Ment, and the Hospital Systems wanted (demanded).

Regarding PCPs not having time to counsel dumbass people on eating their fruits and veggies: This is one of the main problems with modern allopathic medicine. Please make the time to counsel the dumbasses (as you call them). It's a way to fight back against the Hospital System MBA scumbags and be a better Doctor.

You mentioned, "America's obesity epidemic is not the fault of a lack of counseling by PCPs on Nutrition. Corporate America and the unhealthy food they sell and advertise are an integral part of our society and politics. Americans enjoy eating trash and being fat; and politicians, corporate America, hospital admin, etc. are more than happy to let it happen"

BUT by the the sound of it so are Physicians, because as you mentioned there's no time to counsel the 'dumbasses' on nutrition and Medical Schools don't teach Physicians about nutrition. That's a big part of America's HealthScare system dilemma. It's all soon going to change anyway. Whether we like it or not. Pretty soon without a good credit score, some sort of WooFlew passport, and the right social media score (a-la China) healthscare will be denied. See China..

I am glad to read you wish you had been more educated about nutrition. You sound like a good Physician. Tell the MBA's to shove the SJW stuff where the sun doesn't shine. It's cathartic you'll feel good after doing it..

[ToddBlack88]

I had a large response typed up for the OP as my family has a lot of experience with this topic, but decided to just state a simple response.

There are lazy nurses, just like there are lazy ( insert any career path here) everything else. I don’t believe there are more than there was in the past, but they are out there just like every career.

Edit:

That said, I believe the generations have gotten more lazy over time. It’s the world we live in.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

Yep, and like any other industry, you get what you pay for.

Problem is its a shortage and, well supply/demand. We are paying more, buttloads more. Less us as our system actually does pay well enough to retain more but Im personally aware of some travel nurses who are making 180k+. If you were going to hotspots you were getting 8-10k A WEEK.

But administration wants flexiblity, they dont want to hire a FTE thinking its all going to drop off a cliff, so for the past two years travel nurses are getting bank and its killing what little morale the FTEs had: watching some kid roll in, make 8k a week and bail. While they just get a monthly pizza party.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

I always thought nurses did more than the actual doctor's. Whenever I've had family in the hospital the doctor would come in the room for like 2 seconds and charge a crazy bill for saying 'hello.'

Not to take anything away from the doctor. They have a HUGE responsibility and make the toughest decisions that require the most training and education. It's just that the other 90% of the other decisions are made by the nurses through the day.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

Problem is its a shortage and, well supply/demand. We are paying more, buttloads more. Less us as our system actually does pay well enough to retain more but Im personally aware of some travel nurses who are making 180k+. If you were going to hotspots you were getting 8-10k A WEEK.

But administration wants flexiblity, they dont want to hire a FTE thinking its all going to drop off a cliff, so for the past two years travel nurses are getting bank and its killing what little morale the FTEs had: watching some kid roll in, make 8k a week and bail. While they just get a monthly pizza party.

Lol the pizza party is so accurate. How about a reach around while I pound you from behind? Don't worry, I'll give you pizza.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by jmg

YES and it's one of the reasons my wife retired early. It's not necessarily the nurses' fault, it's the administration's understaffing to save money. Hospital administrations would rather patient care suffer then call in more nurses. And even when they do, it's a crap shoot if anyone is available. It's reactionary instead of preventative. The nurses and the patient suffer because administration are cheap bastards. Here's the worst part: When the nurse to patient ratio is off, the neglect is exponential. Nurses are expected to chart chart chart, which isn't a big deal except now you have more patients than normal to chart for, AND they get reprimanded for staying late and getting paid OT for charting. So, shift hours that should be dedicated to patient care, are now used for charting. The logical solution is to overlap nurse shifts to account for charting and allow for uninterrupted patient care, but that costs money. My wife was a RN for 15 years and LOVED her patients and loved her job. It because more about charting and juggling more and more patients instead of actual care. She was heartbroken that the job devolved into basically fast food medical care.

Somehow, thankfully, my org has been able to keep above water on that and keep the wages/quality up. We are a not-for-profit and thankfully Atlanta has some really big donors. We are also big on the consolidation front and using a partner program to drive electives into our surgery centers.

I don't hear a lot of complaints from within (although we could always do better) but man, at industry events...