Zero or Near-Zero Emission Formula One

MKSixer · 02-04-2020, 06:20 PM

Formula One is at another crossroads with the FIA making Formula E and official World Championship while Formula One is struggling to figure out how to make the cars follow one-another more closely. Here is my question for everyone: What are the options for Formula One to become more green while retaining it's unique DNA?

Here is my 2 cents' worth.

Hydrogen fueled engines with all of the current ancillaries on the ICE power units with the ability to rev to 18K to return the noise back to the show.

I know that the fuel tank will be a challenge but that's why we have engineers. This will allow much of the technology to be used from the current engines and there will be a variability between running a stochiometeric or non-stochiometeric mixture. This may be a way to preserve the sport we all love while moving into a more emissions-free footing.

Thoughts?

Chihuahua · 02-04-2020, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Hydrogen fueled engines with all of the current ancillaries on the ICE power units with the ability to rev to 18K to return the noise back to the show.

Couldn't agree more, alternative fuel is what the FIA should have pursued all along if they really want to make F1 more 'green'. Ditch the hybrid systems altogether, fuel them with algae.

The reality of F1 is that it's an automotive freak show, and a sprint race at that. The FIA should save the 'green' stuff for endurance racing, keep F1 weird.

MKSixer · 02-04-2020, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

Couldn't agree more, alternative fuel is what the FIA should have pursued all along if they really want to make F1 more 'green'. Ditch the hybrid systems altogether, fuel them with algae.

The reality of F1 is that it's an automotive freak show, and a sprint race at that. The FIA should save the 'green' stuff for endurance racing, keep F1 weird.

I wish it were still a sprint race. Go back and watch the races from the late 90s. No lift and coast. No brake preservation. No Cheese Tires. THAT was sprint racing!!

apexit4 · 02-05-2020, 07:26 AM

I think part of the issue with a way forward is that the solution has to appeal to manufacturers participating in the sport (current or future). Hardly any manufacturer's are investing in hydrogen tech for road use (Honda and Toyota are the only one's I am aware of).

mkoesel · 02-05-2020, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apexit4

I think part of the issue with a way forward is that the solution has to appeal to manufacturers participating in the sport (current or future). Hardly any manufacturer's are investing in hydrogen tech for road use (Honda and Toyota are the only one's I am aware of).

Your point about synergies with consumer products is completely valid, but I want to point out that the OP was referring to a hydrogen combustion engine. You may remember, BMW had a prototype 7 Series a decade or so ago with a hydrogen fueled V12 engine. They are no longer investing in the technology, however.

What Toyota, Hyundai, and others (including BMW, in fact) are pursuing is hydrogen fuel cell technology which is completely different. An FCEV (fuel cell electric vehicle) has much more in common with a BEV (battery electric vehicle) than any vehicle with a combustion engine. In fact, it's really just about creating a "refillable battery". The rest of the vehicle is (or could be in theory be, with more development work) just like the BEV.

Salty Dog · 02-05-2020, 08:51 AM

I just don't see anything on the horizon right now that will matter with respect to racing that isn't an ICE or variation of it. I get that EV's could be made competitive but I'm not sure there is a market to for it. The folks that love the tech of EV's aren't the type of people who are going to love racing.....maybe I'm wrong.

MKSixer · 02-05-2020, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

I just don't see anything on the horizon right now that will matter with respect to racing that isn't an ICE or variation of it. I get that EV's could be made competitive but I'm not sure there is a market to for it. The folks that love the tech of EV's aren't the type of people who are going to love racing.....maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with this statement, 100%. They aren't the type. More the type that like battling robots or some such.

Tambohamilton · 02-05-2020, 09:14 AM

F1 just needs to hurry up and die. Right now I can't think of another form of motor racing that I'd like to watch less than F1. Sure, it's the pinnacle of tech etc....who cares!? NASCAR is (comparatively) Neanderthal cars and a track that only turns left, and it's still awesome! And there's rally/rallycross, moto, endurance, GT, touring cars........F1 is boring as hell.

If the investment that is poured into F1 was spread around GT racing etc etc, we'd start seeing some rapid development in what's available for us to buy, and we'd have good racing too!

YMMV, etc

MKSixer · 02-05-2020, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

F1 just needs to hurry up and die. Right now I can't think of another form of motor racing that I'd like to watch less than F1. Sure, it's the pinnacle of tech etc....who cares!? NASCAR is (comparatively) Neanderthal cars and a track that only turns left, and it's still awesome! And there's rally/rallycross, moto, endurance, GT, touring cars........F1 is boring as hell.

If the investment that is poured into F1 was spread around GT racing etc etc, we'd start seeing some rapid development in what's available for us to buy, and we'd have good racing too!

YMMV, etc

You know that you can simply stop watching, yes?

Tambohamilton · 02-05-2020, 10:22 AM

Yep, haven't watched for a few years now, beyond a cursory glance to make sure I'm still not missing anything

MKSixer · 02-05-2020, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Yep, haven't watched for a few years now, beyond a cursory glance to make sure I'm still not missing anything

To each, his own!

Tambohamilton · 02-05-2020, 10:59 AM

Indeed! Good that some (presumably lots of) people are still enjoying it!

hellrotm · 02-05-2020, 11:42 AM

How many laps could a Formula E car do of Spa? Formula E races on these dinky street tracks.

How many decades until a EV can win overall at 24hr Le Mans?

EV tech is far from being competitive, especially in endurance racing.

MKSixer · 02-05-2020, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellrotm

How many laps could a Formula E car do of Spa? Formula E races on these dinky street tracks.

How many decades until a EV can win overall at 24hr Le Mans?

EV tech is far from being competitive, especially in endurance racing.

Completely unsuitable at this juncture.

Salty Dog · 02-05-2020, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I agree with this statement, 100%. They aren't the type. More the type that like battling robots or some such.

I kind of look at it this way, I like mechanical watches, something with moving parts that was hand crafted, you can look at the movement and appreciate it, my iPhone keeps better time than my rolex or omega, and yet I still wear them.

Lots of folks don't understand, and that's ok but I don't think they are going to be ICE racing fans.

Tambohamilton · 02-05-2020, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellrotm

How many laps could a Formula E car do of Spa? Formula E races on these dinky street tracks.

How many decades until a EV can win overall at 24hr Le Mans?

EV tech is far from being competitive, especially in endurance racing.

The bonus is that formula e races are sprints, so everyone is balls-out for the win. Great fun to watch!

02-04-2020, 06:20 PM	#1
MKSixer Lieutenant General 34166 Rep 11,637 Posts Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Southeast United States iTrader: (0) Garage List 2016 M4 GTS (Allotted) [0.00] 2013 BMW 328d [0.00] 2007 BMW M6 [10.00] 2015 BMW i8 [10.00]	Zero or Near-Zero Emission Formula One Formula One is at another crossroads with the FIA making Formula E and official World Championship while Formula One is struggling to figure out how to make the cars follow one-another more closely. Here is my question for everyone: What are the options for Formula One to become more green while retaining it's unique DNA? Here is my 2 cents' worth. Hydrogen fueled engines with all of the current ancillaries on the ICE power units with the ability to rev to 18K to return the noise back to the show. I know that the fuel tank will be a challenge but that's why we have engineers. This will allow much of the technology to be used from the current engines and there will be a variability between running a stochiometeric or non-stochiometeric mixture. This may be a way to preserve the sport we all love while moving into a more emissions-free footing. Thoughts? __________________ Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond... Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 100 Wins. 101 Pole Positions. 54 Fastest Laps. Actual Rain Master. Leave me to it, Bono. One Race Win in each of his 15 years in F1. Most Laps Led in Formula One. The Centurion.
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02-05-2020, 07:26 AM	#4
apexit4 Major 1233 Rep 1,100 Posts Drives: 335D M-Sport, X5D Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0)	I think part of the issue with a way forward is that the solution has to appeal to manufacturers participating in the sport (current or future). Hardly any manufacturer's are investing in hydrogen tech for road use (Honda and Toyota are the only one's I am aware of).
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02-05-2020, 08:51 AM	#6
Salty Dog Captain 3572 Rep 885 Posts Drives: Austin Mini,MBGLK, Porsche 993 Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	I just don't see anything on the horizon right now that will matter with respect to racing that isn't an ICE or variation of it. I get that EV's could be made competitive but I'm not sure there is a market to for it. The folks that love the tech of EV's aren't the type of people who are going to love racing.....maybe I'm wrong.
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02-05-2020, 09:14 AM	#8
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3330 Rep 4,252 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	F1 just needs to hurry up and die. Right now I can't think of another form of motor racing that I'd like to watch less than F1. Sure, it's the pinnacle of tech etc....who cares!? NASCAR is (comparatively) Neanderthal cars and a track that only turns left, and it's still awesome! And there's rally/rallycross, moto, endurance, GT, touring cars........F1 is boring as hell. If the investment that is poured into F1 was spread around GT racing etc etc, we'd start seeing some rapid development in what's available for us to buy, and we'd have good racing too! YMMV, etc
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02-05-2020, 10:22 AM	#10
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3330 Rep 4,252 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Yep, haven't watched for a few years now, beyond a cursory glance to make sure I'm still not missing anything
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02-05-2020, 10:59 AM	#12
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3330 Rep 4,252 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Indeed! Good that some (presumably lots of) people are still enjoying it!
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02-05-2020, 11:42 AM	#13
hellrotm Banned 4080 Rep 6,924 Posts Drives: F80 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: ...Location...Location iTrader: (0)	How many laps could a Formula E car do of Spa? Formula E races on these dinky street tracks. How many decades until a EV can win overall at 24hr Le Mans? EV tech is far from being competitive, especially in endurance racing.
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