[BMWI6]

I have been a BMW fanatic since I can remeber, but lately BMW is pissing me off with some of the stuff they are doing lately. Here are some of them: 1. Doing things just for looks like the fake grills on the new M3. 2. Expanding their line to include more cars than FORD, GM AND Chevy combined. 3. Flame surfacing and less agressive looks on the cars. 4. NOT making a CSL version of the M3 because they dont have resources as they are developing an M X6 and X5. I also think that before, BMW was on a league of it's own and when people wanted serious performace and German engineering there was only one brand you could think off: BMW. But now Audi and Mercedes are closing in; making higher quality cars as they are trying endlessly to gain marketshare on BMW. I still beleive that based on driving dynamics BMW is still the leader of the pack, but will this last for long? I don't know, but I see a very dim future for our favorite company unless they get their act together, and by recently anouncing that they are cutting R&D funding they arent going to achieve that. This is the first time ever that I see a lot of e90posters asking "hey, what do you guys think of the new Audi, looks good right" should i trade it for my 335i"...blah blah blah... Anyways, I just felt like i needed to vent.... Vote on your opinion! feel free to make suggestions, maybe we can get something out of this thread.

[simp0man]

I am thinking their original plan was to obtain the status and then start cutting corners. That was their plan all along. Short lived maybe but it worked they got alot of our money and we got the scraps. My theory though.

[Pedal2Floor]

No, I believe that the only thing that is starting to happen is that the North American market is no longer as important.

Brazil, Russia, India and China as well as other emerging markets are more important. What may not appeal to you, is working well in other markets and since these are world cars, these car appeal to more than just the US market which has always been different.

You are going to see more and more of this in other areas as well. Everything from computers, home electronics, cameras and other items. There is more growth outside of the US and Europe.

GM and Volkswagon already sell more cars outside of their main markets than they have ever done before. Sony and Samsung has TVs with features that will never make it to the US.

The US Debt load will mean many consumers are going to be looking for either nothing or cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap -- so that is what we are going to get.

BMW has already announced that they are going to make leasing less attractive and instead of a push model they are going to offer more of a pull model for the US. You are going to see the same from Audi and MB as well. You will see more German autos being made in the US but fewer features than you would find in other areas. The push to be "green" and remove dependency on foreign energy sources will also change the make of the cars here -- so what is the point of the CSL in that type of environment? The X cars are big sellers in the BRIC countries -- what they are doing makes sense from a business perspective.

Call it a cycle call it a trend, this is the way it will be for the foreseable future.

So, from a US centric view, it may look like a downward trend, from a world view it is a just a shift in focus and many in the US better be prepared for the fact that the US is not as important as it once was and focus will be more towards emerging markets. Money and resources always flow to where they can best work. The world has become flat making that movement even faster from less efficient markets to more efficient markets.

Things will not change in the US until they get rid of their Uber Debt and things will not change in Europe until they lower their gross over taxing.

What you will see in the US is fewer options and fewer models of all goods with less leasing and financing to more outright purchasing of cheaper lower featured lower quality goods until we get out from under the massive debt load.

Not sure how it is where you work, but the company I work for is 100% focused on markets outside of the US right now.

[attorneyscott]

BMW is doing a great job these days - if anything they're on an upward trend compared to what we saw beginning in '02 with the redesigned 7 series. At that point, I became kind of disgusted with the company. BMW went from producing some of the best looking cars on the market to the ugliest - that 7 made me want to hurl every time I saw one. The 5 was a major styling downturn from its predecessor as well, and then came the 6, which looks like a melting slug. They appear to have turned the corner though - the E92/93 is gorgeous, the X5 is a very decent looking SUV, the 1 is easy to look at, the F01 7 is a giant improvement, and the X6 is just flat bad ass when equipped with the sport package and the big wheels.

As far as how the cars drive, go test some of the competition. Did someone in this thread actually suggest looking at an Audi A4? The cars which compare most favorably with the 335 IMO are the CTS, the IS350, and the Infiniti G. They're all good cars, but still can't hang with the 3-series in terms of driving dynamics - not even close. The C class, the Audi 4, Saabs, and other similarly priced cars don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath. Audi A4? What is this, an AARP forum?

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

No, I believe that the only thing that is starting to happen is that the North American market is no longer as important.

Brazil, Russia, India and China as well as other emerging markets are more important. What may not appeal to you, is working well in other markets and since these are world cars, these car appeal to more than just the US market which has always been different.

You are going to see more and more of this in other areas as well. Everything from computers, home electronics, cameras and other items. There is more growth outside of the US and Europe.

GM and Volkswagon already sell more cars outside of their main markets than they have ever done before. Sony and Samsung has TVs with features that will never make it to the US.

The US Debt load will mean many consumers are going to be looking for either nothing or cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap -- so that is what we are going to get.

BMW has already announced that they are going to make leasing less attractive and instead of a push model they are going to offer more of a pull model for the US. You are going to see the same from Audi and MB as well. You will see more German autos being made in the US but fewer features than you would find in other areas. The push to be "green" and remove dependency on foreign energy sources will also change the make of the cars here -- so what is the point of the CSL in that type of environment? The X cars are big sellers in the BRIC countries -- what they are doing makes sense from a business perspective.

Call it a cycle call it a trend, this is the way it will be for the foreseable future.

So, from a US centric view, it may look like a downward trend, from a world view it is a just a shift in focus and many in the US better be prepared for the fact that the US is not as important as it once was and focus will be more towards emerging markets. Money and resources always flow to where they can best work. The world has become flat making that movement even faster from less efficient markets to more efficient markets.

Things will not change in the US until they get rid of their Uber Debt and things will not change in Europe until they lower their gross over taxing.

What you will see in the US is fewer options and fewer models of all goods with less leasing and financing to more outright purchasing of cheaper lower featured lower quality goods until we get out from under the massive debt load.

Not sure how it is where you work, but the company I work for is 100% focused on markets outside of the US right now.

Awesome point of view, I guess you're right, but its true that we are getting cheaper quality products here but companies like BMW are the perfect example now. And yes I work for a bank that is focused in the BRIC countries now.

[josephr25]

My brother loves BMWs more than I do (he got his car before I got mine) and even he says BMWs aren't as good as they used to be. Although their driving dynamics are hailed by many magazines, how many people here have actually test driven all of them? Even more so, on a track?

Just like Mercedes (and even Porsche), BMW is flooding the market with products to make a profit.

[yazz]

i think they're doing just fine, and am i the only person who feels that the 5 and 6 series cars are aesthetically pleasing?

[Pedal2Floor]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

Just like Mercedes (and even Porsche), BMW is flooding the market with products to make a profit.

I can assure you, that trend will stop as BMW is finding (an the Big US 3 found out) flooding the market just makes your core product cheaper. For an example, see all the SUVs on used car lots going for 50% original value or lower.

I see Porsche has not figure this out yet, with their, "who says you can't afford a Porsche" campaign they have going on. BMW gets it, there will be no sweat lease/finance deals in MY09 going forward. Emerging markets will be a different story

[Pedal2Floor]

Originally Posted by yazz

i think they're doing just fine, and am i the only person who feels that the 5 and 6 series cars are aesthetically pleasing?

I love the 5, you can keep the Bangle butt 6 however. Next gen 3,5 & 6 work for me.

[BayAreaE92]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

Not sure how it is where you work, but the company I work for is 100% focused on markets outside of the US right now.

+1,000

That's Globalization for ya

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

My brother loves BMWs more than I do (he got his car before I got mine) and even he says BMWs aren't as good as they used to be. Although their driving dynamics are hailed by many magazines, how many people here have actually test driven all of them? Even more so, on a track?

Just like Mercedes (and even Porsche), BMW is flooding the market with products to make a profit.

They are definitively not as good as they used to be. People seem to forget that with time comes progress, so they are mesmerized too see that their e92 handles better than their e36 so they are filled with joy. What they dont get is the fact that in the time of the e36, it out handled much more expensive sports cars by far, and now even some japanese cars handle close to BMW. So yes, BMW's get better in a sense by the year because of technology. But in their core, they are getting weaker and weaker each year.

[Christos]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

My brother loves BMWs more than I do (he got his car before I got mine) and even he says BMWs aren't as good as they used to be. Although their driving dynamics are hailed by many magazines, how many people here have actually test driven all of them? Even more so, on a track?

Just like Mercedes (and even Porsche), BMW is flooding the market with products to make a profit.

I agree, I don't get that "wonderful feeling" when driving one like I used to. However they are still great cars.

I liked it when BMW practiced "form follows function" philosophy, instead of the reverse. And we all know they are trying to capture a much larger market share and that means, inevitably, heading towards mediocrity to satisfy the masses.

[John 070]

When a Cadillac shows up with a CTS-V and it technically beats the M5, of which BMW brought two cars, one has to start to wonder. It used to be that the competition simply could not do what BMW did. Now they can, and for cheaper. Today an Infiniti doesn't quite stack up to a BMW, like models, but who knows what can happen in the near future? When Chevy is using direct injection on a crossover, Nissan has to wake up and smell the roses, and they probably will.

[Pedal2Floor]

Originally Posted by John 070

When a Cadillac shows up with a CTS-V and it technically beats the M5, of which BMW brought two cars, one has to start to wonder. It used to be that the competition simply could not do what BMW did. Now they can, and for cheaper. Today an Infiniti doesn't quite stack up to a BMW, like models, but who knows what can happen in the near future? When Chevy is using direct injection on a crossover, Nissan has to wake up and smell the roses, and they probably will.

First off, a BMW has never been about HP. The Big 3 have always been about HP -- thus the retro Mustang, Camaro and Challenger.

In the past, the belief is that one needed a high horse power halo car....that was the past. In today's Wall Street Journal Report they reported the Chrysler is going to nix the Viper and is looking for a buyer for the brand and said that GM will follow suit with stopping some models of the Vette. The next halo car is the one that can deliver the highest MPG -- GM is late to the game with the CTS-V -- its now all about the Volt and which car will deliver the best MPG -- at least for the US and European markets.

The auto world is changing -- it is a race to see who is more "green" and who can deliver the highest MPG. The green army is taking over and it is changing the agenda -- The Detroit Big 3 needs a bailout, in return for that bailout whoever is next in office is going to force them to develop some type of stupid plug-in or hybrid -- it will be all about the MPG.

Enthusiasts in the US and EU will have to take a back seat.

[742]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

First off, a BMW has never been about HP. The Big 3 have always been about HP -- thus the retro Mustang, Camaro and Challenger.

In the past, the belief is that one needed a high horse power halo car....that was the past. In today's Wall Street Journal Report they reported the Chrysler is going to nix the Viper and is looking for a buyer for the brand and said that GM will follow suit with stopping some models of the Vette. The next halo car is the one that can deliver the highest MPG -- GM is late to the game with the CTS-V -- its now all about the Volt and which car will deliver the best MPG -- at least for the US and European markets.

The auto world is changing -- it is a race to see who is more "green" and who can deliver the highest MPG. The green army is taking over and it is changing the agenda -- The Detroit Big 3 needs a bailout, in return for that bailout whoever is next in office is going to force them to develop some type of stupid plug-in or hybrid -- it will be all about the MPG.

Enthusiasts in the US and EU will have to take a back seat.

I agree with everything you say except the last part. There are a lot of small, efficient cars out there that interest enthusiasts. The Mini, to take one example.

Raw power is going away, but BMW made its name with modest powered cars, exceptional engineering and great handling qualities. And I suspect that there will be plenty of room for that in our green future. And since BMW still makes cars in Europe that fit the bill they are in great shape—after they do something to fix the mindset of BMW of North America.

[josephr25]

The cancellation of the M3 CSL, and the possible emergence of the MX series, is going to make most BMW enthusiasts sick. But can you blame BMW? They need these "other" M cars to make a profit, more than a CSL. Everybody knows that the Cayenne helped Porsche tenfold. But people tend to forget that Porsche started off as a consultancy, so people think it's blasphemic for them to make an SUV.

The "Ultimate Driving Machine" is open to a lot of definitions, but nowadays (especially southern California) it's just an ego machine. I hope the next M3 returns to its true racer roots and just give you a light weight car w/ nothing that fancy. The current one is just too heavy to be an enthusiast's car.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

No, I believe that the only thing that is starting to happen is that the North American market is no longer as important.

Brazil, Russia, India and China as well as other emerging markets are more important. What may not appeal to you, is working well in other markets and since these are world cars, these car appeal to more than just the US market which has always been different.

You are going to see more and more of this in other areas as well. Everything from computers, home electronics, cameras and other items. There is more growth outside of the US and Europe.

GM and Volkswagon already sell more cars outside of their main markets than they have ever done before. Sony and Samsung has TVs with features that will never make it to the US.

The US Debt load will mean many consumers are going to be looking for either nothing or cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap -- so that is what we are going to get.

BMW has already announced that they are going to make leasing less attractive and instead of a push model they are going to offer more of a pull model for the US. You are going to see the same from Audi and MB as well. You will see more German autos being made in the US but fewer features than you would find in other areas. The push to be "green" and remove dependency on foreign energy sources will also change the make of the cars here -- so what is the point of the CSL in that type of environment? The X cars are big sellers in the BRIC countries -- what they are doing makes sense from a business perspective.

Call it a cycle call it a trend, this is the way it will be for the foreseable future.

So, from a US centric view, it may look like a downward trend, from a world view it is a just a shift in focus and many in the US better be prepared for the fact that the US is not as important as it once was and focus will be more towards emerging markets. Money and resources always flow to where they can best work. The world has become flat making that movement even faster from less efficient markets to more efficient markets.

Things will not change in the US until they get rid of their Uber Debt and things will not change in Europe until they lower their gross over taxing.

What you will see in the US is fewer options and fewer models of all goods with less leasing and financing to more outright purchasing of cheaper lower featured lower quality goods until we get out from under the massive debt load.

Not sure how it is where you work, but the company I work for is 100% focused on markets outside of the US right now.

This if true, is sad. I grew up in a world where the US was top dog. Being bottom of the scrap pile is not what I envisioned for my sons future.

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

The cancellation of the M3 CSL, and the possible emergence of the MX series, is going to make most BMW enthusiasts sick. But can you blame BMW? They need these "other" M cars to make a profit, more than a CSL. Everybody knows that the Cayenne helped Porsche tenfold. But people tend to forget that Porsche started off as a consultancy, so people think it's blasphemic for them to make an SUV.

The "Ultimate Driving Machine" is open to a lot of definitions, but nowadays (especially southern California) it's just an ego machine. I hope the next M3 returns to its true racer roots and just give you a light weight car w/ nothing that fancy. The current one is just too heavy to be an enthusiast's car.

100000+

[simnew]

Are BMW going downhill ? I don't think so but they are changing and so are Americans.

The big focus in Europe and therefore Germany and therefore BMW is about green issues - sustainability, fuel efficiency, adhering to ever more stringent emissions and remaining profitable and doing that as a responsible employer in a country which gives great emphasis to social issues.

For a very long time and indeed if you listen to many who write on this very website, it was all about power and speed and handling. So what you have is cars which have got more and more powerful and more and more fuel efficient, but because the average American/European/Human has got so much bigger and we all carry so much junk with us these days, the cars have got heavier and much bigger in the process. At the same time we expect the handing to get better ? Why ? All that happens is that the heavier and bigger the car, the harder and more firmly damped the car needs to be in order to get round the track in the same time. At the same time, the ride deteriorates. So because the guy driving the car has got fatter, the overall car has got bigger, which means it needs a bigger engine, which means it needs more technology to make it more efficient which makes it more expensive....

In Europe there is legislation which mandates that the AVERAGE CO2 emissions for a manufacturer will soon have to be 130mg CO2 per kilometer. Car makers exceeding this figure will attract fines on every car.

In the US, people are just getting used to $4 per gallon. So in sterling that is £2.20. The price in the UK at the moment is £5 per gallon or $9. Ok there's a lot of tax in there but it does rather put things into perspective. The US still has cheap fuel, is still a very cheap place to buy a BMW (why else would a 21 year old high school kid have a new 335i - probably bought by his dad).

So against this backdrop - has BMW got better ? Well yes ! It makes cars which are fun to drive - well balanced and sporty. Cars which are fuel efficient and getting more so. Cars which offer more space and have better crash performance than ever. That protect pedestrians (remember in Europe soon, most cars will start having pop up bonnets to protect the heads and bodies of pedestrians in the event of an accident) better than ever. And they are investing in the future of the car in much bigger numbers that many rivals. Hydrogen fuel cells, hybrids, hybrid diesels are just around the corner.

The only thing I really lament is that the paint is poorer - softer because there is less solvent in it (water based green paint) and some interior items - headlinings for example are much poorer so that they recycle better.

[BMWI6]

yeah. the new paint does suck big time.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

First off, a BMW has never been about HP. The Big 3 have always been about HP -- thus the retro Mustang, Camaro and Challenger.

In the past, the belief is that one needed a high horse power halo car....that was the past. In today's Wall Street Journal Report they reported the Chrysler is going to nix the Viper and is looking for a buyer for the brand and said that GM will follow suit with stopping some models of the Vette. The next halo car is the one that can deliver the highest MPG -- GM is late to the game with the CTS-V -- its now all about the Volt and which car will deliver the best MPG -- at least for the US and European markets.

The auto world is changing -- it is a race to see who is more "green" and who can deliver the highest MPG. The green army is taking over and it is changing the agenda -- The Detroit Big 3 needs a bailout, in return for that bailout whoever is next in office is going to force them to develop some type of stupid plug-in or hybrid -- it will be all about the MPG.

Enthusiasts in the US and EU will have to take a back seat.

Point is, a new production Cadillac beat the M5 on a track. BMW showed up with both a manual and SMG, and if I understand it, both lost. If Cadillac is late to the game, how late is the E92 M3 and the next M5? I dunno about most on this forum, but 20 mpg on the highway doesn't really appeal to me. So offer me 12k off a new M3, and I'll pass today, tomorrow, and 5 years from now.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by simnew

(why else would a 21 year old high school kid have a new 335i - probably bought by his dad).

imho this forum does not really represent what is typical. There really aren't that many (out of the general population) where their parents bought them a BMW. There are trust fund babies, but they are few and far between. Captains of industry do pull in more than 80 mil./year on Wall St., Silicon Valley, etc., but again, few and far between.

Food for thought, if a typical doctor pulls in 300k, do you think he can afford to buy his kid a BMW? Highly unlikely.

We do have two things in the US that I feel contribute to the HS student driving a spanking brand-new BMW--leasing, and shortage of time. Leasing helps keep the cash flow relatively smaller for a big ticket item. If a busy parent has little time to spend with their child because they're working 70+ hours a week, what better way to say I love you kid than to lease them a new car?

p.s. a 21 y.o. high school kid is a loser imho, he should have graduated by 17 or 18