[gearhead]

There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding the M3's increasing weight over the past couple of generations, as well as all the other technology add-ons and creep. This phenomenon certainly applies to the 3-series lines in general.

I was wondering how many people on this forum (besides me) would like to see a BMW that goes back in time in some ways, but of course is manufactured with all the best quality and technology that is available. It wouldn't have to be an "M" car in its base version, but certainly would have the capacity for upgrades and would have the potential to be a high-performance vehicle, also through aftermarket add-ons (Mini does a fine job in this regard).

Would it be possible for BMW to bring a "simple" car to market, while keeping many of the features that we admire about the brand, with regards to steering, suspension, build quality, handling, acceleration and braking? Remember, the E30 and E36 platforms were much simpler, more compact and lighter - just imagine designing from scratch a new platform that truly captures what we liked about those cars, while taking advantage of modern design and manufacturing advances. (I realize that given modern safety regulations, it is more difficult to truly achieve a lightweight car).

We saw an attempt by BMW to go smaller and lighter in the 1-series, but the jury is still out, I think. It sure didn't achieve the goal of being light weight.

Here are some design elements that I would like to see:
- a key (no start/stop button)
- 4-cylinder high-revving engine, or a turbo-4
- smaller overall dimensions and reduced weight
- non-RFT's
- consider 2-seat configuration to get the weight down - a coupe in the classic sense!

Thoughts?

[Serious]

They have that car.

its an mz4 coupe.

No one buys it.

[Bimmer Nerd]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

They have that car.

its an mz4 coupe.

No one buys it.

hhahhah i don't think he was expecting that answer LOOOL

[addy85]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

They have that car.

its an mz4 coupe.

No one buys it.

nice lol, nice E46 btw

[TLud]

Smaller dimensions are one thing, but today's creature comforts and additional sound deadening are hard to do without on a daily driver. This is what really adds weight. We're too used to having a nice audio system and being able to hear it over wind noise. We love our bluetooth phone connections, navigation systems, power seats, and all the other modern gadgets on cars these days. I'll admit that I wouldn't want to do without a lot of this stuff on a daily basis. Before I seriously modded my current ride, an '06 Tacoma, it had no bells or whistles, the road and wind noise was awful at highway speeds, the stock stereo sucked, and if it rained hard, you could barely hear passengers talking. Not much fun.

Even your initial post reflects this current trend and attitude. The only gadget that you expressly mentioned that you would do without was comfort access. The problem is that we've all come to expect certain things on our cars as standard and have a hard time doing without them on a daily basis.

If you want a dedicated track car or an occasional fun car, there's certainly no reason why BMW couldn't do it, but they won't, especially not for the American market (hence, no CSL). That's not to say that a car like that couldn't succeed.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

They have that car.

its an mz4 coupe.

No one buys it.

Hey genius, I specifically referenced a 4-cylinder, hi-revving engine - which would result in reduced weight of the entire powertrain! ;-)

And yes I am well aware of the Z4M coupe (not mz4 or whatever you called it), I have driven it many times. Its weight approaches the weight of the e46 M3 itself. The Z4M coupe suffered from an overly-cramped interior, lots of rattles, no benefit of weight reduction, and bangle styling.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by TLud

Smaller dimensions are one thing, but today's creature comforts and additional sound deadening are hard to do without on a daily driver. This is what really adds weight. We're too used to having a nice audio system and being able to hear it over wind noise. We love our bluetooth phone connections, navigation systems, power seats, and all the other modern gadgets on cars these days. I'll admit that I wouldn't want to do without a lot of this stuff on a daily basis. Before I seriously modded my current ride, an '06 Tacoma, it had no bells or whistles, the road and wind noise was awful at highway speeds, the stock stereo sucked, and if it rained hard, you could barely hear passengers talking. Not much fun.

Even your initial post reflects this current trend and attitude. The only gadget that you expressly mentioned that you would do without was comfort access. The problem is that we've all come to expect certain things on our cars as standard and have a hard time doing without them on a daily basis.

If you want a dedicated track car or an occasional fun car, there's certainly no reason why BMW couldn't do it, but they won't, especially not for the American market (hence, no CSL). That's not to say that a car like that couldn't succeed.

TLud, that's fair, and I agree that most wouldn't do without the creature comforts that we have become accustomed to. I would submit though that Mazda and Honda have been able to produce cars like the Miata and Civic Si that, while not anything near BMW's best in terms of performance & comfort, they do boast some advanced design and technology in their own right. Yes, they offer decent comfort, and also some nice technology (to add bluetooth to an Si wouldn't tip the scales dramatically). All I'm saying is that based on other examples out there, and with technology continually improving, it should be possible to achieve a new level of compact, lightweight high-performance car, and I would like to see BMW compete in this space.

[808MGuy]

Also, if you were to build say an E36 M3 to meet today's crash test and safety standards, it would be much heavier than what it was back in the mid 90s. Then, like the others were saying, add all the comfort technologies in and you've got a heavy car. I think they've done their best to keep the weight down while still producing a car that maintains a level of comfort and performance as good or better than it's competitors.

To lose significant weight, you'll have to give up soe of the comfort features which most buyers in this price range are not willing to give up.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by gearhead

TLud, that's fair, and I agree that most wouldn't do without the creature comforts that we have become accustomed to. I would submit though that Mazda and Honda have been able to produce cars like the Miata and Civic Si that, while not anything near BMW's best in terms of performance & comfort, they do boast some advanced design and technology in their own right. Yes, they offer decent comfort, and also some nice technology (to add bluetooth to an Si wouldn't tip the scales dramatically). All I'm saying is that based on other examples out there, and with technology continually improving, it should be possible to achieve a new level of compact, lightweight high-performance car, and I would like to see BMW compete in this space.

One thing that doesn't hold back Mazda in creating the MX-5 and Honda in creating the Civic Si is that these cars, and to some extent the brands in general, don't have a history or reputation as "luxury" marques. It would be difficult for BMW to come out with a very basic, low-frills, pure driver's car, given consumer expecations of what a BMW should be. Most people would look at it as the cheap, bargain-basement BMW or the poor man's BMW, as opposed to the driver's BMW or enthusiast's BMW.

And even the Miata and Si tell the same tale. As they've developed, they've inevitably gained significant weight since their inception. The Si is now a 3,000 pound car and the Miata is pushing 2,600 lbs. An additional problem with the Miata is that it's just too small for a bigger guy like me (6'1" with long legs and broad sholders).

Again, it's certainly possible, but unlikely. I would also like to see something closer to this idea than the 1er ended up being, but I'm buying the M3 instead of holding my breath.

[gearhead]

TLud,

Right!

[chuck92103]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

They have that car.

its an mz4 coupe.

No one buys it.

+1. The market for low end 4 cylinder cars is taken care of with cars like the Mini Cooper, Subaru, etc.

Granted some of these cars lack RWD, or only offer 4WD.

However, the majority of folks who spend $40-$60k for a car, want all the luxury too.

Just compare the MZ4 coupe/vert to other BMW sales.

There is a tiny market for a stripped down BMWs. Also I believe BMW's cost structure is such that it could not build a $20-$30k car and make money even if it tried. It would be like contracting NASA to build shopping carts.

[Spec 1]

....You could go out and buy an E30. I hear those are nice....

[Whostheboss]

Heres a concept from my Design company:

[Whostheboss]

free bump!

[chuck92103]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

Heres a concept from my Design company:

That is called a 6 series.

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by chuck92103

That is called a 6 series.

LOL, Well Here sir ( a back shot) Check out the Hexa-exhaust pipes

[Whostheboss]

free bump

[Whostheboss]

i should work for bimmer

[BMWJZ4]

just for the record...a z4 has a 6 cylinder

[lib]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Hey genius, I specifically referenced a 4-cylinder, hi-revving engine - which would result in reduced weight of the entire powertrain! ;-)

The N54 only weighs 412 lbs and the V8 from the M3 weighs 445 lbs. A BMW turbo 4cylinder will probably weight at least 360 lbs.

The size of the engine from BMW at this point won't make much of a weight difference.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by gearhead

The Z4M coupe suffered from an overly-cramped interior, lots of rattles, no benefit of weight reduction, and gorgeous styling.

Fix't.

[chuck92103]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

LOL, Well Here sir ( a back shot) Check out the Hexa-exhaust pipes

What is with all the circles in the back. It looks liek a Ferrari on crack.