[Scharbag]

So, IMHO, having 5 forward gears is plenty for 99.99999% of driving situations. This gear count used to work back when high strung engines put out 200HP. Now, we have cars with 400+ HP and we need 6 and 7 speed transmissions?

My first 6 speed was in a VW and I almost always skipped 5th gear as it was so close to 6th. I still dropped to 3rd to pass on the highway. Same is true in both my BMWs.

I have never driven a 7 speed manual. Unless 7th gear is a big arsed over-drive, then what is the point?

Discuss...

[erictrainer]

I know our F80 needs one badly, I mean I certainly dont enjoy cruising at 80 with the tach at 3K. A seventh gear overdrive that would put it back at 2K or even 2.5k would do wonders for cabin comfort NVH. That is my only gripe about our 6MT.

[Supra2k6]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

So, IMHO, having 5 forward gears is plenty for 99.99999% of driving situations. This gear count used to work back when high strung engines put out 200HP. Now, we have cars with 400+ HP and we need 6 and 7 speed transmissions?

My first 6 speed was in a VW and I almost always skipped 5th gear as it was so close to 6th. I still dropped to 3rd to pass on the highway. Same is true in both my BMWs.

I have never driven a 7 speed manual. Unless 7th gear is a big arsed over-drive, then what is the point?

Discuss...

how do you skip a gear? by mistake you switched to 5th?

most cars need a cruising gear for highway use also the most importantly probably better MPG's. Is not like they're long gears either.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Supra2k6

how do you skip a gear? by mistake you switched to 5th?

most cars need a cruising gear for highway use also the most importantly probably better MPG's. Is not like they're long gears either.

I would shift 4th to 6th. Hardly ever use 5th.

I agree that a highway gear would be nice. My E92 with 4.10 gears revs way to high at highway speed.

On another note, I have never used 5th gear at a race track. Ever. The top of 4th in all my track cars has been fast enough.

[upstatedoc]

What is this "manual transmission" you speak of?

[Scharbag]

It is the magical lever thinger that connects you to the car’s soul.

[Needbmwpartzz]

I was happy with my 5 speed MX-3 for most driving.....but guessing its nice to have more gear for autobahn

[Lups]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

I know our F80 needs one badly, I mean I certainly dont enjoy cruising at 80 with the tach at 3K. A seventh gear overdrive that would put it back at 2K or even 2.5k would do wonders for cabin comfort NVH. That is my only gripe about our 6MT.

I seldom comment on cars here but for this one i have to.

What the fuck are you on about?!

And:

You're doing it wrong.

[erictrainer]

Ummmmmm.... What am I doing wrong?

Go on your nearest highway speed up to 80 mph on 6th gear and come back and report what your tach reads.

The gear ratios on this car were optimized for track performance not highway cruising. That's just one of the compromises made. Hence, it would be nice to have a 7th overdrive gear.

Originally Posted by Lups

I seldom comment on cars here but for this one i have to.

What the fuck are you on about?!

And:

You're doing it wrong.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

Ummmmmm.... What am I doing wrong?

Go on your nearest highway speed up to 80 mph on 6th gear and come back and report what your tach reads.

The gear ratios on this car were optimized for track performance not highway cruising. That's just one of the compromises made. Hence, it would be nice to have a 7th overdrive gear.

You're not enjoying it! The turbos kick in sharply with that range and this generation was not meant to be an M6 with the whole old men needs comfort shit. This car is optimized for speed, and sadly if you're going 80+ speeds (i maxed mine often. God created Wyoming for a reason! And Montana. And Canada, and highways, and boobs) you need the input of the surface the suspension offers and you need a six speed to be able to brake with the motor on the highways.

I should know. In one year and four months I drove through usa and Canada a few times in one.

My answer was bitchy, I'm sorry. If this thread was about dropping a gear I'd be as bitchy but adding one would change the character too in ways i have to object to!

[CTinline-six]

7 speeds? At what point does it stop being a BMW and becomes a semi-truck?

I love driving manuals, but driving around other people in high traffic areas really pisses me off sometimes. Nothing like having to slam on the brakes because of one idiot driver, row through all the gears, and have to do it all again 30 seconds later because someone pulls out in front of you and stops.

On a twisty back road or less populated area? Manual all the way. With today's drivers who are constantly distracted it makes any kind of driving not as enjoyable unless you are in the middle of nowhere. When I commuted into the city I probably had one or two close calls with other idiots on a daily basis.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

7 speeds? At what point does it stop being a BMW and becomes a semi-truck?

I love driving manuals, but driving around other people in high traffic areas really pisses me off sometimes. Nothing like having to slam on the brakes because of one idiot driver, row through all the gears, and have to do it all again 30 seconds later because someone pulls out in front of you and stops.

On a twisty back road or less populated area? Manual all the way. With today's drivers who are constantly distracted it makes any kind of driving not as enjoyable unless you are in the middle of nowhere. When I commuted into the city I probably had one or two close calls with other idiots on a daily basis.

I'm always waiting for a snow storm so i always want a manual. It's funny, i will always take an fwd over an awd, but never an auto over a manual.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

So, IMHO, having 5 forward gears is plenty for 99.99999% of driving situations. This gear count used to work back when high strung engines put out 200HP. Now, we have cars with 400+ HP and we need 6 and 7 speed transmissions?

You're looking at it from quite a US point of view.
However BMW's are german cars.
I dont know if you've ever been to Germany, but cruising on the autobahn at 100-120mph for longer stretches is quite normal, especially in the more rural areas and with a high performance car.
And then with the modern engines that provide huge amounts of torque its far better for: a-comfort, b-fuel economy/emissions output and c-longevity of the engine etc if rpm's are lower.
If you would put that gearing over 5 gears, that would massively reduce performance.

So for the slow us style of driving that many gears might not be as necessary as the high speed driving we do in Europe, where a US gallon of fuel can cost up to $8,- (yes thats another thing that differs...).
Also cars and car manufacturers have to meet strickt emission goals; putting in a 5 speed would mean bmw wouldnt even be allowed to produce an m3 or m5.

Those are the reasons why the went from 4 to 5 to 6 and next 7 gears (automatics are already up to 10)

[Lups]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

You're looking at it from quite a US point of view.
However BMW's are german cars.
I dont know if you've ever been to Germany, but cruising on the autobahn at 100-120mph for longer stretches is quite normal, especially in the more rural areas and with a high performance car.
And then with the modern engines that provide huge amounts of torque its far better for: a-comfort, b-fuel economy/emissions output and c-longevity of the engine etc if rpm's are lower.
If you would put that gearing over 5 gears, that would massively reduce performance.

So for the slow us style of driving that many gears might not be as necessary as the high speed driving we do in Europe, where a US gallon of fuel can cost up to $8,- (yes thats another thing that differs...).
Also cars and car manufacturers have to meet strickt emission goals; putting in a 5 speed would mean bmw wouldnt even be allowed to produce an m3 or m5.

Those are the reasons why the went from 4 to 5 to 6 and next 7 gears (automatics are already up to 10)

Dude. Even i wasn't dumb enough to try to explain European driving here.

Dude. Just dude.



And i admit i tried to explain the F8x gen here, so the second dude was for me.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

You're looking at it from quite a US point of view.
However BMW's are german cars.
I dont know if you've ever been to Germany, but cruising on the autobahn at 100-120mph for longer stretches is quite normal, especially in the more rural areas and with a high performance car.
And then with the modern engines that provide huge amounts of torque its far better for: a-comfort, b-fuel economy/emissions output and c-longevity of the engine etc if rpm's are lower.
If you would put that gearing over 5 gears, that would massively reduce performance.

So for the slow us style of driving that many gears might not be as necessary as the high speed driving we do in Europe, where a US gallon of fuel can cost up to $8,- (yes thats another thing that differs...).
Also cars and car manufacturers have to meet strickt emission goals; putting in a 5 speed would mean bmw wouldnt even be allowed to produce an m3 or m5.

Those are the reasons why the went from 4 to 5 to 6 and next 7 gears (automatics are already up to 10)

I hear ya regarding the change from 3 to 4 to 5. That makes sense. And a 6 speed would make sense IF 6th was a real highway gear. Regardless, 100MPH to 120MPH does not NEED more than 6 gears IMHO and here is why:

The E92 M3 is engine limited to 168MPH in 5th gear at 8300RPM with 6MT and 3.85 gears (6th really cannot go faster due to resistance anyway). Same transmission, in 6th, you are theoretically at 7221RPM. Not a great deal different.

For the US and Canadian folks who are limited to slow highways: at 70MPH in 6th, the 6MT above is pulling 3000RPM, or 3448 in 5th, or 4103 in 4th. Since 5th will get you to Vmax, 6th should be a better overdrive gear. Any more gears and you might as well buy an automatic or a CVT IMHO to make up for all the time wasted changing gears manually.

Thankfully, BMW has not swallowed the 7 speed kool-aid yet (they may just drop M manuals since so few are sold though...). Corvette and Porsche have. But at least the Porsche GT3 manual has only 6 forward speeds!!

Cheers,

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

I hear ya regarding the change from 3 to 4 to 5. That makes sense. And a 6 speed would make sense IF 6th was a real highway gear. Regardless, 100MPH to 120MPH does not NEED more than 6 gears IMHO and here is why:

The E92 M3 is engine limited to 168MPH in 5th gear at 8300RPM with 6MT and 3.85 gears (6th really cannot go faster due to resistance anyway). Same transmission, in 6th, you are theoretically at 7221RPM. Not a great deal different.

For the US and Canadian folks who are limited to slow highways: at 70MPH in 6th, the 6MT above is pulling 3000RPM, or 3448 in 5th, or 4103 in 4th. Since 5th will get you to Vmax, 6th should be a better overdrive gear. Any more gears and you might as well buy an automatic or a CVT IMHO to make up for all the time wasted changing gears manually.

Thankfully, BMW has not swallowed the 7 speed kool-aid yet (they may just drop M manuals since so few are sold though...). Corvette and Porsche have. But at least the Porsche GT3 manual has only 6 forward speeds!!

Cheers,

They're dropping them. Well some say an M2 is a car but the rest of us think blind people shouldn't drive.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Lups

They're dropping them. Well some say an M2 is a car but the rest of us think blind people shouldn't drive.

So sad... So very sad. Fingers crossed, I will keep my 6MT E92 M3 for many many years.

Yes DCTs are faster. But so are CVTs. And CVTs are soulless.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

So sad... So very sad. Fingers crossed, I will keep my 6MT E92 M3 for many many years.

Yes DCTs are faster. But so are CVTs. And CVTs are soulless.

Dcr is faster on a track if you're a really good, like a flying finn good driver. For the rest of us a Honda civic as a manual feels as fast as a ferrari.

If you look closely, you can see a tiny bias towards to those who really can drive in my post. I did about 32 k miles in a manual F82 and a few more in dct versions of that generation. It's been almost two years since i sold my f82 and i still haven't bought a car to replace it. That's how bias I am to manuals (and i have a mild problem with giving up things i name, i rather walk than buy an other F8x and the next gen won't have a manual, so i guess walking is an option!) , but some mild stubbornness have been detected in my case.

Edit: An e90 M3 has been looked at by me twice in the passing months so i guess I'm turning back the time in this too.

It's a manual, naturally.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

I hear ya regarding the change from 3 to 4 to 5. That makes sense. And a 6 speed would make sense IF 6th was a real highway gear.

Doesnt have to; as a lot also has to do with the characteristic of the engine.
Take for instance the peugeot 306 GTI-6.
I dont think you ever got that on you continent, but it's basically a late 90's hot hatch with a 167hp engine and close ratio gearbox.
That car is an absolute feast to drive with that close ratio gearbox. Like having a little old fashioned ralleycar, its regarded as one of the best 90's hot hatches. But again, that engine benefits from the close ratios. At 136mph it will hit the revlimiter in 6th. And for instance a clio RS will hit the revlimiter in 6 at the same speed, also pretty close ratio.

The E92 M3 is engine limited to 168MPH in 5th gear at 8300RPM with 6MT and 3.85 gears (6th really cannot go faster due to resistance anyway).

Something tells me that you have no first hand experience driving that car that fast. I know from first hand experience that the e92m3 goes faster than 168mph. My 380bhp z4 does 175mph, and an e92 m3 is faster at top speed (at the same stretch of flat road, same conditions, I think it'll do over 185mph)

But then again, the amount of gears is not all about top speed. Its also like I wrote about emissions, engine characteristics, mileage, longevigy and comfort. Those factors combined make up what gearbox and ratio's to use.
And of course weight and size. A 7 speed is considerably larger due to its construction, as it not only needs an extra gear (that goes for all gearboxes with more gears), but also an extra shift fork. That is also a reason that 7 speeds arent that common.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Doesnt have to; as a lot also has to do with the characteristic of the engine.
Take for instance the peugeot 306 GTI-6.
I dont think you ever got that on you continent, but it's basically a late 90's hot hatch with a 167hp engine and close ratio gearbox.
That car is an absolute feast to drive with that close ratio gearbox. Like having a little old fashioned ralleycar, its regarded as one of the best 90's hot hatches. But again, that engine benefits from the close ratios.



Something tells me that you have no first hand experience driving that car that fast. I know from first hand experience that the e92m3 goes faster than 168mph. My 380bhp z4 does 175mph, and an e92 m3 is faster at top speed (at the same stretch of flat road, same conditions, I think it'll do over 185mph)

But then again, the amount of gears is not all about top speed. Its also like I wrote about emissions, engine characteristics, mileage, longevigy and comfort. Those factors combined make up what gearbox and ratio's to use.
And of course weight and size. A 7 speed is considerably larger due to its construction, as it not only needs an extra gear (that goes for all gearboxes with more gears), but also an extra shift fork. That is also a reason that 7 speeds arent that common.

No, I have never gone over 270KPH in my M3.

I still think 6th gear could be a much better overdrive. And that 7 gears are not needed (unless you are driving a highway tractor).

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

I still think 6th gear could be a much better overdrive. And that 7 gears are not needed (unless you are driving a highway tractor).

So then you WANT a bigger torque gap between 5th and 6th?!?
Cause thats the physical consequence. Every extra gear gives in theory better performance. Thats why in professional motorsports every track has its own set of gearbox ratio gears. To maximize performance for the stretch of road it gives and fit the ratio's as close as possible. Automatics even get 8-10 gears in order to keep up with (or surpass) manuals in acceleration or mileage etc.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

No, I have never gone over 270KPH in my M3.

I still think 6th gear could be a much better overdrive. And that 7 gears are not needed (unless you are driving a highway tractor).

160+ mph is all I've done in an M of any generation. Six speed was still enough for that.