[Shaw]

"Sales of BMW vehicles like the X5 sport utility vehicle and top-of-the-line 7-Series sedan rose at the slowest pace since 2009 as deliveries in China, the world’s biggest car market, gained only slightly."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nkedin.company

"Sales of the company’s namesake brand increased 5.2 percent to 1.9 million autos last year, the Munich-based luxury carmaker said Monday in a statement. Deliveries during December declined 0.7 percent to 176,681 vehicles, and dropped by 7.1 percent in China. Competitor Audi’s sales rose 3.6 percent to 1.8 million cars last year, also the smallest rise since 2009.
The performance contrasts with Mercedes-Benz, which topped Audi for the first time since 2010 to become the second-biggest global luxury car brand by deliveries. Stuttgart-based Mercedes’s sales surged 13 percent to 1.87 million cars, benefiting from demand for coupe-like sport utility vehicles such as the GLE and GLC. Mercedes on Sunday unveiled its revamped E-Class sedan, which competes with BMW’s 5-Series and Audi’s A5 models, at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Both Audi and Mercedes have declared they want to unseat BMW AG by the end of the decade as the leader in global luxury car sales. BMW was the last of the three to report worldwide deliveries for the year."

[Fundguy1]

Keep putting research money into "I" cars and not into the bread and butter 3 and 5 series. It's really paying off.

[mkoesel]

1 Series sedan and 2 Series Gran Coupe cannot come soon enough. Crucial cars for the global market.

[FriskyDingo]

Shocking.

I mean, you have core products that are arguably the dullest they've ever been, refuse to build vehicles that are needed in the market place, and yet insist on filling every possible imaginable stupid niche with monstrosities such as the 3 and 5 GT.

[fecurtis]

I could see that, Mercedes offers a hell of a lot more models than BMW does.

In MB's sales figures do they include shit like their cargo vans?

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

Shocking.

I mean, you have core products that are arguably the dullest they've ever been, refuse to build vehicles that are needed in the market place, and yet insist on filling every possible imaginable stupid niche with monstrosities such as the 3 and 5 GT.

I understand what you are saying and emotionally, I fully agree.

On the intellectual side, they are expanding the offerings to fill business needs. They offer a common platforms with sufficient flexibility to fill unmet needs for the general population. Someone did an analysis of X6 sales and demonstrated that it has made a significant and positive financial impact on the company. This for a vehicle that was much maligned at launch and throughout it's life span. Such has been it's impact that MBZ has copied the vehicle. Let's be frank, If they catered to buyers like us they would still be a small company that everyone still called British Motor Works. :roll eyes::roll eyes:

Like the X6, I didn't understand the 535GT until we purchased one to use in order to transport my brother after a stroke. It offers nearly all of the utility of an SUV for those who abhor sitting up high in an SUV and drives rather well in Sport Mode.

Thanks for your input!
Cheers-mk

[Shaw]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I could see that, Mercedes offers a hell of a lot more models than BMW does.

In MB's sales figures do they include shit like their cargo vans?

good question!
Although I must say, personally I don't even find half of MB's line-up attractive at all...and the other half, well, there's at least "one thing" in each and every one of them that ticks me off....(ugly taillight, hideous dashboard design,...)...
no question that their cars are solid and luxurious, but at the end of the day, it is pretty much a personal taste...I don't ever see myself sitting in a MB...ever....unless BMW goes bankrupt!
so for me it is not about quantity or the line up...it is about what excites me as a must have...none of MB line up fall in that category for me...The one that I was a bit optimistic about was the new S coupe, but the dash design + taillights just killed it for me, big time...I just can't wait for the 2017/18 new 6er.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I understand what you are saying and emotionally, I fully agree.

On the intellectual side, they are expanding the offerings to fill business needs. They offer a common platforms with sufficient flexibility to fill unmet needs for the general population. Someone did an analysis of X6 sales and demonstrated that it has made a significant and positive financial impact on the company. This for a vehicle that was much maligned at launch and throughout it's life span. Such has been it's impact that MBZ has copied the vehicle. Let's be frank, If they catered to buyers like us they would still be a small company that everyone still called British Motor Works. :roll eyes::roll eyes:

Like the X6, I didn't understand the 535GT until we purchased one to use in order to transport my brother after a stroke. It offers nearly all of the utility of an SUV for those who abhor sitting up high in an SUV and drives rather well in Sport Mode.

Thanks for your input!
Cheers-mk

The X6 is one thing. Although I don't like it, there is some actual merit to something that fills such a role. It's been successful because of it. But the 3GT and 5GT are just totally superfluous. While it may meet your needs, you are a very small percentage of buyers. Even smaller than enthusiasts which they fail to cater to in many regards.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

The X6 is one thing. Although I don't like it, there is some actual merit to something that fills such a role. It's been successful because of it. But the 3GT and 5GT are just totally superfluous. While it may meet your needs, you are a very small percentage of buyers. Even smaller than enthusiasts which they fail to cater to in many regards.

They are niche vehicles,
Cheers-mk

[Viffermike]

Two words: Market saturation.

Why? Because it's not just a BMW thang. It's a German luxury carmaker thang.

Bottom line: A company can make only so many 'luxury' items before it starts to water down its own brand to be 'luxury' no longer.

(BTW: Mercedes is not as affected by this precisely because of those cargo vans -- not to mention that it's dabbled in the non-luxury car market for many years. BMW and Audi have been almost exclusively luxury carmakers for some 30 years -- BMW since the early 1980s, and Audi since the 5000 series of the mid-1980s)

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I understand what you are saying and emotionally, I fully agree.

On the intellectual side, they are expanding the offerings to fill business needs. They offer a common platforms with sufficient flexibility to fill unmet needs for the general population. Someone did an analysis of X6 sales and demonstrated that it has made a significant and positive financial impact on the company. This for a vehicle that was much maligned at launch and throughout it's life span. Such has been it's impact that MBZ has copied the vehicle. Let's be frank, If they catered to buyers like us they would still be a small company that everyone still called British Motor Works. :roll eyes::roll eyes:

Like the X6, I didn't understand the 535GT until we purchased one to use in order to transport my brother after a stroke. It offers nearly all of the utility of an SUV for those who abhor sitting up high in an SUV and drives rather well in Sport Mode.

Thanks for your input!
Cheers-mk

Bravo! Bravo! So much truth.

The X6 appeals to a certain SUV buyer and the ones who buy it love it. I would say it's for someone with a strong, maybe somewhat brash personality who wants his SUV to make a statement. The maximum utility of it is not their first concern.

I have been a big fan of the 5GT from the very beginning. I definitely "got it" right off the bat. Here are a couple of examples I used to give. You know how when two couples travel together both husbands sit in the front, because of tight leg room in the back. The 5GT is the perfect road car for two couples. Husbands and wives can sit together, because the back seat has plenty of room for the second husband.

It's also the perfect car for realtors. I'm convinced if BMW got the word out to realtors they would all have one. It's a BMW, so it makes a success statement. It's perfect for carrying clients around to look at houses. The lift gate and cargo capacity is perfect for carrying around For Sale signs and open house paraphernalia.

And it's a great mom car for the mom who likes sitting up a little higher for a better view, but doesn't want to be seen driving a minivan.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

The X6 is one thing. Although I don't like it, there is some actual merit to something that fills such a role. It's been successful because of it. But the 3GT and 5GT are just totally superfluous. While it may meet your needs, you are a very small percentage of buyers. Even smaller than enthusiasts which they fail to cater to in many regards.

The 5GT is staying. It's part of the G30 5 Series family. Why? Because BMWNA has sold significantly more 5GTs than they sold 5er wagons. Just to be clear, I think it was a mistake not to import the F11. And I've heard BMW believes that now. So, hopefully we'll get the G31.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The 5GT is staying. It's part of the G30 5 Series family. Why? Because BMWNA has sold significantly more 5GTs than they sold 5er wagons. Just to be clear, I think it was a mistake not to import the F11. And I've heard BMW believes that now. So, hopefully we'll get the G31.

I understand this. But at the same time, you can't sell what you don't want to sell, or even build at all.

More Touring models with different powertrain options would sell better. BMW doesn't even try in many cases.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Two words: Market saturation.

Why? Because it's not just a BMW thang. It's a German luxury carmaker thang.

Bottom line: A company can make only so many 'luxury' items before it starts to water down its own brand to be 'luxury' no longer.

(BTW: Mercedes is not as affected by this precisely because of those cargo vans -- not to mention that it's dabbled in the non-luxury car market for many years. BMW and Audi have been almost exclusively luxury carmakers for some 30 years -- BMW since the early 1980s, and Audi since the 5000 series of the mid-1980s)

This. 1,000x this.

How luxurious, prestigious, and exclusive are you when everyone on the block has your product because you are catering to those who normally could not afford or wouldn't want it?


Nothing good has EVER come from a car maker chasing after that great #1 spot in sales. Don't believe me, look at GM, Toyota, and VW.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

This. 1,000x this.

How luxurious, prestigious, and exclusive are you when everyone on the block has your product because you are catering to those who normally could not afford or wouldn't want it?


Nothing good has EVER come from a car maker chasing after that great #1 spot in sales. Don't believe me, look at GM, Toyota, and VW.

Bless you, sir.

I don't want to dive headlong into economic theory and derail this thread. So I'm just going to mention two general points:

1). As Frisky states, the coveted "No. 1" sales slot is not Valhalla for luxury brands. I work with some of the most exclusive fashion brands on the planet; most realize that raw sales should not be the ultimate goal for them. Nor should it be for BMW. If it really wants to grow into a true behemoth of profit and volume, it needs to start new brands (as it did with MINI) and operate more like VW does ... ::gulp::

2). Entities that prioritize fast short-term growth over everything else are doomed to fail in some capacity. This applies to carmakers, fashion brands, restaurants, the domestic products of a polity, manufacturing capacity, etc. Capitalism's great, but it should be measured to remain healthy. Most companies don't think in terms of measuring themselves for steady, incremental, long-term growth; they think in terms of quick-and-hard short-term growth for reasons that should be plain to many. That BMW is still a privately-held company and operates a relatively small number of factories are signs that the prioritization of growth is not out of control. But I suspect that, at some point, that will change -- and at that point, BMW will cease to be a luxury brand in my eyes.

[IEDEI]

crappy products....brand image tanking.....and a lack of imagination aside from the i3 and i8. not surprising at all...

BMW used to be a motoring choice of distinction....now it's just one of the defaults to go and grab an appliance.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

This. 1,000x this.

How luxurious, prestigious, and exclusive are you when everyone on the block has your product because you are catering to those who normally could not afford or wouldn't want it?


Nothing good has EVER come from a car maker chasing after that great #1 spot in sales. Don't believe me, look at GM, Toyota, and VW.

In theory, yes but the maths don't add up. BMW, Mercedes, and Audi are still exclusive brands.

The total Global Auto Market was about 83 million vehicles sold. These three brands are about 5.6% of the total market and that includes the entry-level cars like the 2 and 3 series lines.

Cheers-mk

[ASAP]

Everyone here is aware that slowest growth is still "growth".

They broke records in sales across the board in 2015

Indeed they are oversaturating the market in every which way possible but it has churned out incredible Revenue numbers... I can't speak for margins since I haven't actually seen the financials.

I would put an enormous investment in the standard 3 series next time around as that is the most important car... with that being said, it's still better than its competitors at the moment... the A4 is somewhat of a joke and the C class styling is really not for everyone, BMW still makes a product that many want, it's just no longer strictly a niche enthusiast brand.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

This. 1,000x this.

How luxurious, prestigious, and exclusive are you when everyone on the block has your product because you are catering to those who normally could not afford or wouldn't want it?


Nothing good has EVER come from a car maker chasing after that great #1 spot in sales. Don't believe me, look at GM, Toyota, and VW.

You mean other than the most important metric of all for any public company in this world? - Revenue? lol gtfo w that... we are all enthusiasts and we all want good cars but these are companies and they function to make a profit, believe it or not.

Also, someone here is confused if they think BMW is a private company... It's majorly publicly owned w 2 private individuals holding the lower portion.

Also, what short term growth are you all talking about?

They are investing billions of dollars into state of the art cfrp manufacturing plants and investing more money into hybrid technology than any other luxury manufacturer in its class... this will pay massive dividends in 10-15-20 years.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You mean other than the most important metric of all for any public company in this world? - Revenue? lol gtfo w that... we are all enthusiasts and we all want good cars but these are companies and they function to make a profit, believe it or not.

Also, someone here is confused if they think BMW is a private company... It's majorly publicly owned w 2 private individuals holding the lower portion.

Also, what short term growth are you all talking about?

They are investing billions of dollars into state of the art cfrp manufacturing plants and investing more money into hybrid technology than any other luxury manufacturer in its class... this will pay massive dividends in 10-15-20 years.

First off, being #1 in sales is not necessarily analogous with generating the most revenue. Selling 1,000 items with 1% profit margin pales compared to selling half that with 10% profit margin. See Porsche.

Disregarding that, of course a company has to turn a profit. I don't think anyone here is suggesting BMW to NOT be profitable. But they are investing a lot of money into cars that are very niche and stray very far from the brand's roots, while failing to deliver compelling products in other segments that would still be profitable to them, as well as make enthusiasts happy.

But touching back on the original point, every car maker that has openly come out and gunned for the sales leader position has paid serious consequences. Whether it be cost-cutting that results in subpar product, complacency that allows competitors to catch and surpass you, or needless gambles on vehicles that end up being sales failures, so far nobody has been immune. BMW would be wise to keep this in mind.

[pbjjj]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

But touching back on the original point, every car maker that has openly come out and gunned for the sales leader position has paid serious consequences. Whether it be cost-cutting that results in subpar product, complacency that allows competitors to catch and surpass you, or needless gambles on vehicles that end up being sales failures, so far nobody has been immune. BMW would be wise to keep this in mind.

Well well said.

I believe BMW in recent years is trying to keep their sales leader as a goal. They are reshaping their product strategy in many ways to create a new image in hopes to attract customers away from MB and Audi and other luxury brands. Some examples: BMW invests in "i" cars to show consumers that they are innovative to appeal to Lexus and Tesla customers. Starting F30 3 series BMW is making this core product softer to attract customers who normally would go for MB. The next G-platform 3 series will increase in size more. BMW is considering moving the next 2-series to Mini's front-wheel-drive platform. BMW is slowly modifying their maintenance plan and their Assistance plan to look more like MB's. I expect to see more changes from BMW in the next couple years as they continue with their quest to be "competitive" with other luxury auto makers. The company and their products will look very different within 5 years.

Maybe all these changes are starting to confuse the consumers more because consumers aren't really sure what BMW truly is anymore...

[Jai 302]

Speaking of vans, I've reached a stage where I'd rather see BMW making commercial trucks instead of unsightly "GT"s and "X-Cite"s. Seriously, X-Cite sounds like something straight out of Hyundai's subcompact lineup in developing countries. For example, in India they launched a sedan version of the i20 and called it X-cent - like an Accent but smaller. Looks like BMW is pulling off something similar with their X-Cite. The only difference is that unlike the X-cent, BMW will make an about a dozen variants of the X-Cite.

Slowing growth is not a bad thing. In fact it should get into negative growth as soon as possible so the people running the company get their shit straight or risk becoming the next Volkswagen.