[paradoxical3]

Just something I was noticing as I was browsing through ads. Quite sad the direction the brand is going. I am particularly disappointed by the new FWD platform, reduced power engine options, and the terrible steering feel reviews of the new 340i coming in. I just feel that BMW is totally losing its DNA.

[X2Board]

At least the M division is still doing something right!

[Imbue]

So sad

[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by Imbue

So sad

You said it.

BMWs used to be all about driving... The term "Ultimate Driving Machine" nowadays is becoming more of a punchline.

[valbmw]

Let me introduce a bit different point of view.

A brand that is going only one direction like performance car or so, will not survive today. It must go all possible directions to stay competitive and earn money. The bread is the cheap cars for moms, silly looking family vans, commercial transport (trucks, buses) and many other boring things.

There are many examples of diversification and mass market winning the battle. Volkswagen "Das Auto" got Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bugatti. Fiat got Ferrari. Mercedes works hardly in trucks and buses so has money to invest in AMG. Let's admit: is Shelby SS the Ford's main product for living? No, I believe it is some trucks. Same story about the Vipers, Camaros, Corvettes etc.

The automotive market is worldwide. Japanese, Korean and finally the Chinese giants are here and there delivering everything from a needle till a crappy spacecraft. These guys are not so selective or conservative, they are learning and growing like hell, and fighting for any spot to occupy.

Does BMW make trucks or buses? No. Tractors or home appliances? Nope. However they introduced SUV (X5), got sport coupe cars, filled up Europe with diesel sedans. They are pushing these stupid i3 and i8 that somebody hails as future cars. So now it's time to set foot in FWD, eco pro, hybrid etc. whatever makes money for a living and also for the another $100k performance car.

If they don't do that, the smarter and less impressionable competitors will just eat this priceless DNA for breakfast.

[Blksnowflake]

^That about sums it up right there, great post. Welcome to the 2015 automotive world.

[LHR]

But does BMW make an inferior product now compared to what it once was? Is it the same quality?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by valbmw

Let me introduce a bit different point of view.

A brand that is going only one direction like performance car or so, will not survive today. It must go all possible directions to stay competitive and earn money. The bread is the cheap cars for moms, silly looking family vans, commercial transport (trucks, buses) and many other boring things.

There are many examples of diversification and mass market winning the battle. Volkswagen "Das Auto" got Audi, Porsche and Bugatti. Fiat got Ferrari and Lamborghini. Mercedes works hardly in trucks and buses so has money to invest in AMG. Let's admit: is Shelby SS the Ford's main product for living? No, I believe it is some trucks. Same story about the Vipers, Camaros, Corvettes etc.

The automotive market is worldwide. Japanese, Korean and finally the Chinese giants are here and there delivering everything from a needle till a crappy spacecraft. These guys are not so selective or conservative, they are learning and growing like hell, and fighting for any spot to occupy.

Does BMW make trucks or buses? No. Tractors or home appliances? Nope. However they introduced SUV (X5), got sport coupe cars, filled up Europe with diesel sedans. They are pushing these stupid i3 and i8 that somebody hails as future cars. So now it's time to set foot in FWD, eco pro, hybrid etc. whatever makes money for a living and also for the another $100k performance car.

If they don't do that, the smarter and less impressionable competitors will just eat this priceless DNA for breakfast.

A few comments. First off I think it is widely recognized that the Chevrolet Suburban introduced in the mid 1930's is recognized as grandfather of the "SUV". The term SUV was coined far longer ago than the first BMW X5 and IIRC sometime in the 1980's. I think perhaps you mean "SAV". I think it is safe to say BMW coined the term Sport Activity Vehicle. About the only sport the X5 does is take a bunch of rich kids to soccer games.

I think the point of this tread is more to do with BMW's general average sedan sold to the consumer (i.e. not an "M") had a level of dynamics in braking, steering, handling, and speed, that the cars were far superior to offering a sportscar-like driving experience. Most BMW enthusiasts feel the company has lost the sports sedan title; I for one do. BMW size-wise is about the same as Mazda, BMW is 12th, and Mazda is 15th. Mazda's products all have a sport driving experience baked into their design that the company has maintained for decades. BMW has lost theirs.

[BMW269]

I don't care, as BMW was the "German Alfa Romeo". Then Alfa Romeo died, and now that BMW is dying, Alfa Romeo is coming back to life, and fitter than ever.

[Fundguy1]

Sad commentary on where we were and where we are now on the company, customers, or society in general.

I'm more of a Jeremy Clarkson type. Get rid of those flappy paddles and extension cords and give me more powwwer!

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

A few comments.

I think the initial point of this thread is discussion of the concern expressed by the OP that with selling non-performance weird new vehicles BMW is losing its DNA. My point was: I don’ think BMW is deteriorating, but we evident how the brands choose different models of market diversity strategy and agility to survive in competitive situation at today’s market. This can be perceived as good or bad but this is business imperative.

Not a word has been said until now about the title, any size or specs compared because this is a totally different issue. As for the sports sedan title, is there any definition of it? Otherwise it is abstractive and subjective slang like “a good car” or “the best color”. For example, my private opinion is the new E 63 AMG 4Matic S is better as sport sedan than the M5 CP with its body and engine of 2009. While in the smaller class I believe the new M3 and M4 have the best handling, perfect power and they are overall classy. OK this is me, so what.

I am not Buddha to commit on “what is widely recognized” or conclude what “the most BMW enthusiasts feel”. But the sources like Caranddriver, Topspeed, Edmunds, Autoguide, Forbes etc. (skipping the unnecessary links) have BMW passenger and performance cars present in every top list (so Jeremy Clarkson has). Hope this recognition is wide enough for two of us and for the thread.

BMW is like any other brand: it cannot meet all and any expectations. Different cars have very different rating depending on place. We are reading here and there both pros and cons for every single piece of technology they do. Also every brand has its ups and downs; some people stay loyal to the brand and its spirit for long, the others run away at the first rainy day, goodbye.

This is normal.

[Fundguy1]

It's not that they are lost yet. But the direction away from performance toward green and mass market I think is penny wise dollar dumb. They run the risk od alienating their existing niche to swim in the big pond. Then they open themselves up to obscurity with so many other brands to compete with. Mercedes, audi, lexus, etc. The result is the thing that separated them and made high repeat customers, sports performance first, is lost, and it's just another luxury brand.

I know I will never buy a hybrid or electric as long at there are gas pumps to drive to. And the things that made me love bmw, manual trans, lively suspension, high reving 6 cylinders, are being replaced by automatics, numb flyby wire steering, and stupid electrics and hybrids to please the tree huggers. I'm already shopping elsewhere, at places I never thought I would look. New mustang gt350, z06 corvette, hellcat, Porsche etc. Compared to some M cars. If I find the luxury and performance elsewhere which didn't exist before, I'm gone.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by valbmw

Fiat got Ferrari and Lamborghini.

say what?!?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

BMW size-wise is about the same as Mazda, BMW is 12th, and Mazda is 15th. Mazda's products all have a sport driving experience baked into their design that the company has maintained for decades. BMW has lost theirs.

BMW makes about twice as many cars/year and has more than triple the revenue...
I wouldn't call that the same.

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

say what?!?

My mistake, sorry.
1987 sold to American Chrysler Corporation
1994 sold to Mycom Setdco and V'Power
1998 sold to Volkswagen Group

Cannot afford buying it anyway

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I'm already shopping elsewhere, at places I never thought I would look. New mustang gt350, z06 corvette, hellcat, Porsche etc. Compared to some M cars. If I find the luxury and performance elsewhere which didn't exist before, I'm gone.

Agree, the old good days are gone. We've got turbos, cats and EGRs, the eco pro shit is everywhere and then comes this shameful engine sounds/exhaust from loudspeakers.

However do we like it or not, performance cars were always a niche product made for car enthusiasts compared to the mainstream of diesel trucks, boat engines and family vans. Porsche itself was close to bankruptcy when VW loaned $1 Bilion to ward off evil spirits, and then release of Cayenne saved the whole brand.

Sports cars business doesn't fly alone, anymore.
And the new era comes with the bloody eco pro.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by valbmw

A brand that is going only one direction like performance car or so, will not survive today. It must go all possible directions to stay competitive

Jack of all trades, being all around the place, spread thin, there are so many ways of decribing this symptom, maybe for a reason.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Mazda's products all have a sport driving experience baked into their design that the company has maintained for decades. BMW has lost theirs.

Let's not get carried away though. As much as I like Mazda, they also have the Mazda 5 minivan which is abysmal, and all except the Miata are FW, including the Madza 6.

[Fundguy1]

BMW has over the past few years decided to embrace the "progressive " side by putting research and resources into alternative fuel systems. First it was diesel. That didn't do so hot. Now it's electrics. From what I see, seeing no more than a dozen electrics on the road past 12 months and 40,000 miles driven from all manufacturers combined, this doesn't look like a strong business model or wise. This is at the cost of their cars becoming noticeably less sporty vs other makers which have improved. This makes BMW just another option and not special. Long term I think it really hurts them. Short term they can use the green wave to appeal to left minded buyers who undoubtedly mostly will buy a 328 regardless but at the expense of loosing the enthusiast market share.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

BMW has over the past few years decided to embrace the "progressive " side by putting research and resources into alternative fuel systems. First it was diesel. That didn't do so hot.

You have a very limited view of bmw's global market.
For instance in europe probably more than half the bmw's sold are diesels.
And bmw's diesels are probably the most advanced ones in the world, surpassing the brands that traditionally where strong with diesels (like mercedes)
But bmw was relatively late to the dieselscene, somewhere mid/late 80s and also late to the turbodiesel scene.

[valbmw]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

BMW has over the past few years decided to embrace the "progressive " side by putting research and resources into alternative fuel systems... This makes BMW just another option and not special. Long term I think it really hurts them. Short term they can use the green wave to appeal to left minded buyers who undoubtedly mostly will buy a 328 regardless but at the expense of loosing the enthusiast market share.

Let me oppose you a little: all brands research the alternative fuel systems (electricity, hydrogen, ethanol) and this has started after the oil crisis in the 70-s.

As for the diesel, Mercedes-Benz and Peugeot were pioneers in diesel engines for passenger sedans, while the first BMW's M21 was produced in Austria in cooperation with Magna Steyr in 1983, for the 534td. I own a diesel car (after several petrol fueled BMW's) and find the engine perfect.

The electricity looks strange so far, also the hybrids. However they just complement performance cars with another product line, nothing about replacing them. Nothing happens to M division and also there are the cars with N63TU (450 hp), so the things are not so bad.

Let's put aside addiction to BMW brand and be honest: it is one of the German top brands but never was the exceptional one. It is really another option and not special. Maybe Porsche was, but look where it is now sitting under VW umbrella. And how many English super hero brands disappeared without being smart and agile at necessary moment.

And finally, this is the short term wave of disappointment vs. long term strategy to survive and stay on top. Maybe you and I will not like this future "top" but hey, who cares.

[sixburgh]

That is why I drive this.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

You have a very limited view of bmw's global market.
For instance in europe probably more than half the bmw's sold are diesels.
And bmw's diesels are probably the most advanced ones in the world, surpassing the brands that traditionally where strong with diesels (like mercedes)
But bmw was relatively late to the dieselscene, somewhere mid/late 80s and also late to the turbodiesel scene.

True But their largest market share is US by far. I don't know if the electrics are doing well in Europe but they aren't here