[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Sorry for talking about shit here Those new green toliets suppose to save our planet too by using less water to complete the flush. You know what, I have to flush it twice almost every time I use. Am I the odd one to flush it twice? I don't think so. Are they really saving our planet??

Water wastage is a good point and I'm always telling my fold to just use enough water for your needs.

[metrixBMW]

I ain't got the balls to keep one out of warranty.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

Good for you, but for me it would take 9 years to make up the difference in price between an ICE and an equal EV even if the electricity were FREE! And certainly it's not.

But I'm also not looney enough to compare a cheap econobox to a very upscale luxury SUV and think I'm doing an apples to apples comparison.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

When you factor purchase (higher) repair ownership (higher) and insurance (higher) always charge at home and you have currently low electricity rates, you can make the case for a commuter distance that can be covered in any weather. Oh, and you don't mind the dead bodies coming out of the mining pits in Africa.

An EV makes sense in no other scenario unless you are willing to tolerate an inferior car ownership experience.

OR, you just buy this commuter special and never worry about range or carbon footprint because there is no EV made that will have a lower footprint. Oh, and you could drive across the USA and never have one bit of range anxiety EVER.

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

$17,912 MSRP $18,315

MPG 36–43

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

Overall costs considered, EV are not less expensive. If you compare equivalent-class ICEV and EV, the added cost of the battery in the EV pays for about 70,000 miles of fuel for the ICEV. In your case you have an EV commuter, so you are paying for registration, maintenance, and insurance on a 2nd car. You have the EV as a 2nd car because all around, it doesn't work as well as an ICEV; it has a narrow use case. You could own just one ICEV that fits all of your needs and it would be less expensive to use as your personal transportation device.

[ASAP]

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Overall costs considered, EV are not less expensive.

I think you left off one very important bit. The true cost of ownership of any vehicle must include it's trade in value in the equation. The resell value of EV's shows very high depreciation and that factors into the cost of operation.
Also EV's tend to be traded or leases turned in much earlier that ICE vehicles allow shorter times for cost averaging of purchase.

The folks are figuring this out.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

And this choice is also far better for the environment on top of that. I would never wish boring cars on anyone but sometimes you just need good dependable transportation.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

You could do to take a lesson from gblansten. He makes no apologies for his EV, it's fast and fun for him to drive so that is all he needs. All the smoke and mirrors about how cheap your EV is to run is just bull. But you certainly don't have to justify it to anyone just enjoy it for what it is.
My M4CS is not a sensible car, It eats tires, gas and is expensive to service and insure but it's what I want right now.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

You can drive it as far as you want and anywhere you want. And it recharges in less than 5 minutes.

[Sedoy]

...Meanwhile, Lucid Air Sapphire a 5300 lbs EV just set a new C&D 2024 Lightning Lap EV record and became the fastest four-door tested, only got beat by track monsters 911 GT3 Manthey Racing and 911 GT3 RS. Interesting times... Your move Tesla Plaid...

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ning-lap-2024/

[ibimmer954]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Good for you, but for me it would take 9 years to make up the difference in price between an ICE and an equal EV even if the electricity were FREE! And certainly it's not.

But I'm also not looney enough to compare a cheap econobox to a very upscale luxury SUV and think I'm doing an apples to apples comparison.

My X4 is just as expensive as my i4 M50. There is no price difference. It's very Apples to Apples... My X4 M40i has 385hp and my i4 is over 500hp. Their cost was within two thousand dollars (about 3%). I don't mind paying slightly more for my electric when I getting even more performance.

It's just the operating cost on the i4 is several times (5x) less. Even if my electricity rates were to double the operating cost on the i4 would still be far less. I don't see electricity rates going up a lot without gas prices also going up. There are no oil changes and certainly less wear on the brakes in the i4 which are the main wear items in the X4. I guess the only place where the i4 is worse is that I burn through tires faster. But that's going to happen when you have double the torque off the line.

The major issue with the i4 is that the public charging (away from home) infrastructure sucks. It doesn't help that the current technology forces long waits to "refuel" the electric car. Adding 200 miles of range to a gas car takes a couple minutes. Adding 200 miles of range using DC Fast-Charge to today's electric vehicles can take anywhere from 20 to 40+ minutes not counting the wait time for public chargers. The wait time can be significant due to the scarcity of public chargers and the long "refuel" times.

So I wouldn't recommend a full electric vehicle as someone's only vehicle. Plug-in hybrid is much more reasonable in the current state of the world. Luckily I'm in a position where have the luxury of having an extra vehicle primarily for in-town use. Which, of course, is about 85+% of my driving time. While in-town I can drive for much less cost and recharge every night at home. Use the gas car for road trips.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You could do to take a lesson from gblansten. He makes no apologies for his EV, it's fast and fun for him to drive so that is all he needs. All the smoke and mirrors about how cheap your EV is to run is just bull. But you certainly don't have to justify it to anyone just enjoy it for what it is.
My M4CS is not a sensible car, It eats tires, gas and is expensive to service and insure but it's what I want right now.

This

Don't convince the internet how much you are 'saving' buying an EV and then try to convince others that it suits a crowd of random internet stranger's particular needs...

EV owners are hilarious

Love your EV? Good, go enjoy it and maybe don't try to covince others how much money you are saving when we all know fuel or electricity cost is only a part of the entire cost of ownership of a vehicle, that does include depreciation

Oh, maybe Onterrible is a little different, but I have not ONCE seen my electricity cost come down, but I can always find a cheaper pump elsewhere.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by ibimmer954

My X4 is just as expensive as my i4 M50. There is no price difference. It's very Apples to Apples... My X4 M40i has 385hp and my i4 is over 500hp. Their cost was within two thousand dollars (about 3%). I don't mind paying slightly more for my electric when I getting even more performance.

It's just the operating cost on the i4 is several times (5x) less. Even if my electricity rates were to double the operating cost on the i4 would still be far less. I don't see electricity rates going up a lot without gas prices also going up. There are no oil changes and certainly less wear on the brakes in the i4 which are the main wear items in the X4. I guess the only place where the i4 is worse is that I burn through tires faster. But that's going to happen when you have double the torque off the line.

The major issue with the i4 is that the public charging (away from home) infrastructure sucks. It doesn't help that the current technology forces long waits to "refuel" the electric car. Adding 200 miles of range to a gas car takes a couple minutes. Adding 200 miles of range using DC Fast-Charge to today's electric vehicles can take anywhere from 20 to 40+ minutes not counting the wait time for public chargers. The wait time can be significant due to the scarcity of public chargers and the long "refuel" times.

So I wouldn't recommend a full electric vehicle as someone's only vehicle. Plug-in hybrid is much more reasonable in the current state of the world. Luckily I'm in a position where have the luxury of having an extra vehicle primarily for in-town use. Which, of course, is about 85+% of my driving time. While in-town I can drive for much less cost and recharge every night at home. Use the gas car for road trips.

You were comparing an X5 to a Nissan Leaf.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

We're enthusiasts so our car is our hobby. A Corolla is an extremely practical option for anyone who uses a car just for simple transportation. It will be a much cheaper and more environmentally friendly option than any EV.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

Less than 1/5 returning to ICE cars.... I think you're proving my point?
Again, EVs don't do everything as well as ICE cars. So some people are going to need to switch back (as the article states). Imagine you're owning/renting a house and then move to an apartment/condo. EVs probably won't work as well.
82% repop for an EV seems like a landslide W...

Simple, let's do the math.
MY vehicles in Washington state.
Car #1: 2011 BMW x5 35d
Car #2: 2013 Nissan Leaf

Current diesel price in Washington state: $4.50/gal
Current electricity price in Washington state: $0.08/kWh

x5 35d gets about 24 mpg. Therefore, $4.50 gets me 24 miles.
Leaf gets about 3.5 miles/kWh. Therefore $4.50/0.08=56.25 kWh
56.25 kWh * 3.5 miles/kWh = 196.9 miles

196.9/24 = 8.2

That means that it's 8.2 TIMES more expensive to drive my x5 (not including maintenance or repairs).

It's not even close. For those of us with cheap electricity, this technology shift is as monumental as the change from steam to ICE.

If you want to put your head in the sand, be my guest, but to suggest that a Malibu is as efficient and cheap to operate as an EV is willful ignorance. Sure there are gas cars that get 60 mpg, but even they are significantly more expensive to operate.

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

You were comparing an X5 to a Nissan Leaf.

Different dude…

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ibimmer954

My X4 is just as expensive as my i4 M50. There is no price difference. It's very Apples to Apples... My X4 M40i has 385hp and my i4 is over 500hp. Their cost was within two thousand dollars (about 3%). I don't mind paying slightly more for my electric when I getting even more performance.

It's just the operating cost on the i4 is several times (5x) less. Even if my electricity rates were to double the operating cost on the i4 would still be far less. I don't see electricity rates going up a lot without gas prices also going up. There are no oil changes and certainly less wear on the brakes in the i4 which are the main wear items in the X4. I guess the only place where the i4 is worse is that I burn through tires faster. But that's going to happen when you have double the torque off the line.

The major issue with the i4 is that the public charging (away from home) infrastructure sucks. It doesn't help that the current technology forces long waits to "refuel" the electric car. Adding 200 miles of range to a gas car takes a couple minutes. Adding 200 miles of range using DC Fast-Charge to today's electric vehicles can take anywhere from 20 to 40+ minutes not counting the wait time for public chargers. The wait time can be significant due to the scarcity of public chargers and the long "refuel" times.

So I wouldn't recommend a full electric vehicle as someone's only vehicle. Plug-in hybrid is much more reasonable in the current state of the world. Luckily I'm in a position where have the luxury of having an extra vehicle primarily for in-town use. Which, of course, is about 85+% of my driving time. While in-town I can drive for much less cost and recharge every night at home. Use the gas car for road trips.

So you bought a 2nd car as a $60,000 EV to save $1,000 annually on gasoline for around town driving? Can you see how some people don't see any savings here?

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So you bought a 2nd car as a $60,000 EV to save $1,000 annually on gasoline for around town driving? Can you see how some people don't see any savings here?

Follow I guess this is what we call common sense nowadays

[Weather Man]

Death by a thousand Green cuts in the EU. Expect more.

It seems as though the Yamaha R1's days are numbered.
However, the ominous portion of the statement then goes on to say, "... from 2025, considering the challenge of meeting the Euro5+ homologation requirements, in Europe the R1 will be made available with specifications aimed exclusively at track use, as was done previously with the R6."

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Death by a thousand Green cuts in the EU. Expect more.

The flood of Cheap China EV's will not be good for consumers, European auto manufactures or local fire departments.

It will be very interesting how Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen Group and Citroen deal with this. Never thought I would be appreciative of the UAW in America but at least they kept the Dems from unleashing cheap China EV's directly on us for the time being.

[AmuroRay]

EVs aren’t about solving a problem (climate change is fake. Governments engage in climate engineering with weather modifications programs like praying aluminum in the air, using high frequency radio waves, and direct energy weapons).

There is no problem to solve, just problems they created and to provide a solution. The solution to 9/11 was to allow the government to spy on American citizens and track their travel despite the hijackers not being American.

So the whole point of getting people on a grid is to drastically raise costs and make them ration electricity. The idea is to have you completely dependent on them for everything.

You and I know this because you can’t save the planet by buying more junk.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

EVs aren’t about solving a problem (climate change is fake. Governments engage in climate engineering with weather modifications programs like praying aluminum in the air, using high frequency radio waves, and direct energy weapons).

There is no problem to solve, just problems they created and to provide a solution. The solution to 9/11 was to allow the government to spy on American citizens and track their travel despite the hijackers not being American.

So the whole point of getting people on a grid is to drastically raise costs and make them ration electricity. The idea is to have you completely dependent on them for everything.

You and I know this because you can’t save the planet by buying more junk.

Money and power make the elites go round.