[Mgrae456]

This is my first time posting in the car care forum any advice would be appreciated. I have a 4 month old 2023 m850 convertible with 4000 miles in San Remo Green. When I picked it up I took it to a local detail shop for a paint correction and ceramic coating. They used the Gyeon brand of coating. Since then the car has only been hand washed using best practices. Today in direct sunlight I'm starting to notice the dreaded swirl like fine lines. I was told by the shop as long as I stuck with hand washing this wouldn't be an issue.
The issue is what do I do now. Is the shop to blame? Is there a fix that doesn't involve a full paint correction and new coating? I read about a product that might help called carpro essence plus is anyone familiar?

[spazzz]

Essence plus is a filler. After awhile you will be back to where you started. The place I use Essence Plus is my painted wheels which are black.

I fixed a spot where someone rubbed my black car with their finger exclaiming it was so shiny. It sort of worked but shortly after the spot was back.

Ten to 1, no one notices those microscopic swirls the way you do. They should hand out chill pills at detail shops for when swirls happen.
Either way that is serious money to lay down for those miracle ceramics and be disappointed.


Plan B would be to stop back at the shop and ask them about your concerns. .....but Essence Plus, nah.

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by spazzz

Essence plus is a filler. After awhile you will be back to where you started. The place I use Essence Plus is my painted wheels which are black.

I fixed a spot where someone rubbed my black car with their finger exclaiming it was so shiny. It sort of worked but shortly after the spot was back.

Ten to 1, no one notices those microscopic swirls the way you do. They should hand out chill pills at detail shops for when swirls happen.
Either way that is serious money to lay down for those miracle ceramics and be disappointed.


Plan B would be to stop back at the shop and ask them about your concerns. .....but Essence Plus, nah.

I appreciate your reply I'm starting to think this ceramic coating was a waste. I miss the old way of doing things. When you started to get swirls get a proper paint correction and move on. I could have done that every 6 months and it would have been cheaper then the coating

[Burrcold]

You likely wouldn't be doing a paint correction as the swirls are probably in the sacrificial ceramic layer. Carpro Essence will "fill" but not repair. The only way to get rid of the swirls would be to strip the ceramic coating and start again. The good news is that the coating most likely did it's job, so your clearcoat isn't actually marred with swirls.

[spazzz]

I polish and coat my cars plus the family. I have moved on from sealants.

Just do your best on the maintenance end. Invest in quality micro towels, chenille mitts and drying towels.
Do rinseless washes and do not wipe it down with a detail spray. Waterless wash with lots of microfiber towels is popular but I never use that method.

My wash microfiber media only gets dunked once and a clean side or roll for each pass.
I use 8, 16 x 16 microfibers for a rinseless and about 7 Chenille mitts for a conventional wash.

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

You likely wouldn't be doing a paint correction as the swirls are probably in the sacrificial ceramic layer. Carpro Essence will "fill" but not repair. The only way to get rid of the swirls would be to strip the ceramic coating and start again. The good news is that the coating most likely did it's job, so your clearcoat isn't actually marred with swirls.

It's an expensive proposition 4 months in. If I thought it would be the last I would do it. If I may let me ask this question to everyone. I'm in the New York City area. How much should I be paying for a quality ceramic coating on a 8 series convertible. I have a feeling this is where I'm heading. If anybody knows of a place I would love a recommendation.

[Nettles]

Who is washing the car since it’s been coated? What method?

I truly mean no offense, but I think you need to do more research and understand what you are doing to your car. You cannot paint correct every six months. You’ll burn through your clear coat and have nothing left. It doesn’t sound like you understand what ceramic coatings do or who they are meant for.

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by Nettles

Who is washing the car since it’s been coated? What method?

I truly mean no offense, but I think you need to do more research and understand what you are doing to your car. You cannot paint correct every six months. You’ll burn through your clear coat and have nothing left. It doesn’t sound like you understand what ceramic coatings do or who they are meant for.

Very fair point I know just enough to be dangerous. This is my first dark colored car after a series of white cars. The white cars I never got coated and were easy to take care of. This car I knew would be a different story. First day I picked it up I took it to a detail shop that was recommended to me. I was told it was prepped then coated with Gyeon ceramic coating. Again that's 4 months, 4000 miles ago. As far as maintenance goes I either take it to a reputable hand wash place. The entire process is done by hand. I have them apply a Gyeon spray wax that's supposed to compliment the coating. Sometimes I use a mobile detailer who uses the pressure washer with the spray gun with the foam. I also purchased a Gyeon wax that I have them apply monthly. I fully admit I don't know details such as soap used, type of drying cloth etc. I know doing it myself would be best but that just isn't feasible for me. I was hoping that using these two reputable businesses would be good enough. I might need to go back to the drawing board. Any recommendations appreciated.

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

Very fair point I know just enough to be dangerous. This is my first dark colored car after a series of white cars. The white cars I never got coated and were easy to take care of. This car I knew would be a different story. First day I picked it up I took it to a detail shop that was recommended to me. I was told it was prepped then coated with Gyeon ceramic coating. Again that's 4 months, 4000 miles ago. As far as maintenance goes I either take it to a reputable hand wash place. The entire process is done by hand. I have them apply a Gyeon spray wax that's supposed to compliment the coating. Sometimes I use a mobile detailer who uses the pressure washer with the spray gun with the foam. I also purchased a Gyeon wax that I have them apply monthly. I fully admit I don't know details such as soap used, type of drying cloth etc. I know doing it myself would be best but that just isn't feasible for me. I was hoping that using these two reputable businesses would be good enough. I might need to go back to the drawing board. Any recommendations appreciated.

Is the "reputable" hand wash place, using safe wash practices? Its very easy to mar paint with the wrong products. I'm going to guess this reputable hand wash place isn't replacing their wash mitt everyday. That mitt has probably been used on hundreds of cars.

And if they're not foaming the car, and using a good car shampoo, like Gyeon Bathe, or Koch Chemie GSF, or something similar, and rinsing the mitt out with grit guards, they're probably the one marring the paint.

Ceramic coating offers little to no swirl mark protection. Some higher end ceramics, do have some anti marring capabilities, but, they're very expensive.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

I appreciate your reply I'm starting to think this ceramic coating was a waste. I miss the old way of doing things. When you started to get swirls get a proper paint correction and move on. I could have done that every 6 months and it would have been cheaper then the coating

Properly washed cars that have been properly ceramic coated won’t get swirls. That is a scientific truth.

If you’re going to invest in ceramic coating its probably best to either hire professionals to wash it with distilled water or you learn how professionals with distilled water wash ceramic coated cars.

My son works as a valet at a BMW. He tells me at least once a month the dealership accidentally sends a properly ceramic coated car out to the car wash team and they F them up with swirls every time. Then the dealership has to then pay to get the car clayed, paint corrected, and re-ceramic coated.

In my experience, ceramic coating is a must do extremely awesome benefit that makes your car look fantastic but it is an investment. However, once you make that decision, you then have to follow through with understanding that only experienced, trained professionals should wash the car after that. Those professionals will use the proper water, the proper chemicals and the proper materials.

[Alfisti]

Unpopular opinion, if you drive the car at all and it's not just sitting in a showroom, it's gonna get marked up. Learn to live with it.

[ultrared93]

Gyeon is a very reputable brand. However, it has several different "coating" products that have differing levels of protection, gloss, slickness, and durability. It would be interesting to know which of their products was applied by the shop, as some only last a few months.

Based on your observations and further comments, I suspect that wash technique is the culprit. Have you watched while your car is washed? Were multiple towels/mitts used and were they dunked in clean water then the soapy water frequently before going back to the car surface?

[Nettles]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

Very fair point I know just enough to be dangerous. This is my first dark colored car after a series of white cars. The white cars I never got coated and were easy to take care of. This car I knew would be a different story. First day I picked it up I took it to a detail shop that was recommended to me. I was told it was prepped then coated with Gyeon ceramic coating. Again that's 4 months, 4000 miles ago. As far as maintenance goes I either take it to a reputable hand wash place. The entire process is done by hand. I have them apply a Gyeon spray wax that's supposed to compliment the coating. Sometimes I use a mobile detailer who uses the pressure washer with the spray gun with the foam. I also purchased a Gyeon wax that I have them apply monthly. I fully admit I don't know details such as soap used, type of drying cloth etc. I know doing it myself would be best but that just isn't feasible for me. I was hoping that using these two reputable businesses would be good enough. I might need to go back to the drawing board. Any recommendations appreciated.

Yeah you're going to need to get more details. For example, Gyeon doesn't have a spray wax. They have a ceramic spray called Cure, but again you see why it's so important to understand who is doing the work, what they are doing, and what they are using. The culprit is whoever is washing the car MOST likely.

A lot of people jump on this ceramic/ppf chain, but have zero idea how any of it works. Then they get swirls/scratches/damage and have zero idea what to expect. I'm not saying all detailers, but definitely some are taking advantage of consumers who just "expect" their detailer to take care of everything in good faith. World just doesn't work that way.

[Forzanerazzurri]

Ceramic coating does nothing for scratches and swirl marks. Stop falling for the marketing.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

Ceramic coating does nothing for scratches and swirl marks. Stop falling for the marketing.

Exactly. The “hardness” they advertise is not on the Mohs scale it is on the ASTM D3363 Pencil Hardness coating test. So, a 2 would be a hardness equal to number 2 pencil lead, lol.

[cbpip]

Any polishing will remove the ceramic coating, it's thin. Essence plus is a polish. You can machine polish, not hand polish the affected panel and recoat it. I had to do this after having to polish out some hi spots. It's not complicated. Just a little time.

Keep this in mind as it helps when washing , drying or applying any top coat detailers, all motions on the surface should be front to back or in other terms not circular.

You can make your own Elixir detailer that Carpro sells. 2oz of Reload, 2oz of ECH2O to 32oz of distilled water.

This is a great detailer and far superior to most purchased. You are basically buy water when you purchase detailer over the counter.

[spazzz]

Essence plus is non-abrasive, Essence is, although not a very heavy hitter.
I have used Essence to rip into CQuartz UK3 for a spot repair and recoat.
I can not remember if I used a white or orange Lake Country Force pad on my Flex3401.

Pretty simple process actually.
Ech20 and Reload aka Merlins elixer is good but Carpro Elixir is better.

[Mgrae456]

So a little update I called the detailer that installed the ceramic coating. He of course, blamed it on the car wash as I was getting. He told me I’m due for what is known as a six month refresh which I wasn’t even aware of. He said he’s going to lightly polish the car, which will not affect the ceramic coating that is currently on the car. After that he’s going to apply one more layer of ceramic coating. He believes that this will illiminate the very light swirls that I see. It will also include some level of a detail and interior work done also for the price of $250. I’m curious to hear what you kind folk think. But to me, it seems like a reasonable best option.

[rmedina]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

I either take it to a reputable hand wash place. The entire process is done by hand. I have them apply a Gyeon spray wax that's supposed to compliment the coating. Sometimes I use a mobile detailer who uses the pressure washer with the spray gun with the foam.

I believe this is the issue. No one is going to treat your car as you would.

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by rmedina

I believe this is the issue. No one is going to treat your car as you would.

100% accurate I just can't do it. Surgically repaired knee and shoulder. I'm forced to try and find the best second best option.

[Mgrae456]

Originally Posted by Nettles

Yeah you're going to need to get more details. For example, Gyeon doesn't have a spray wax. They have a ceramic spray called Cure, but again you see why it's so important to understand who is doing the work, what they are doing, and what they are using. The culprit is whoever is washing the car MOST likely.

A lot of people jump on this ceramic/ppf chain, but have zero idea how any of it works. Then they get swirls/scratches/damage and have zero idea what to expect. I'm not saying all detailers, but definitely some are taking advantage of consumers who just "expect" their detailer to take care of everything in good faith. World just doesn't work that way.

This is the product I have them use. Any recommendations on a better product would be much appreciated.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Mgrae456

This is the product I have them use. Any recommendations on a better product would be much appreciated.

No offense but you're going about it all wrong. Everyone has already given you the right answers, but just to put them all into a single post:

(1.) "Hand wash" is meaningless
All it generally means is the swirls won't be as bad as if you went through a automated paint scratcher car wash.

(2.) Ceramic's core purpose is to protect against chemical damage, i.e., bird poo, bugs, sap, etc, not physical damage like swirls or rocks

(3.) No products will change the first two points

Unfortunately now, if the swirls bug you, you're kinda fucked You can try fillers, and they might ease the pain, but they're fillers which generally go away within 2-3 months depending and THAT assumes you don't get NEW swirls!

But the good news is, you can stop further damage!

The way you do this is, you learn to wash the car yourself which, if you do it often, is super easy. I can do my X5 in 20 min, so a convertible 850 is probably doable in 10-15 min.

The link (or this one) will give you the basic instructions and for you I'd add one thing to the opening which is, if you've driven in rain, snow, or even hit a puddle, then I'd start by first spraying down your car with a road film remover & rinsing. That can be an APC or something like Car Pro Reset / Lift or Koch Chemie Super Foam or Bilt Hamber Touchless. Personally I use the cheap stuff, which is Superior Road Warrior. Also, obvs you can skip the sealant.

I basically have a 5 gallon bucket full of de-i water + McKee's N914 and the hose to my Hydroshot in my garage always ready to go. I come home, pull into the garage, spray down the car, wash it, throw the mitts & drying towels in the washer. Total time is 20ish min, which I use to catch up on a podcast. Super easy. Just do it every week or two or you up the risks. I do mine just about every day.

Also, I just polished my car and took the opportunity to test rinseless & wash media and I can tell you washing a dirty car with a chenille mitt and just about any decent rinseless will be 100% marr free if done as described in the link above.

Also, one note about polishing ... some definitions:

* Paint "correction" - this is a 2 or 3 step job with deep cutting meant for pretty deep swirls. In the Rupes world, this means the blue pads & compound first, polish 2nd.
Correction does indeed take some of your clear coat & you probably don't want to do more than 5 of those in the lifetime of the car depending on what a paint depth gauge says.

* Paint "enhancement" - this is lighter cutting or minimal cutting, used to remove fine swirls and burnish your clean coat to a big gloss. In the Rupes world this means the yellow foam pad/compound & the white foam pad/compound. (experts can use the mf & wools pads too, noobs should consider that cutting)
Enhancement can be done mostly unlimited as the amount of clear coat it takes isn't measurable.

So here's an example of a scratch on the edge of needing correction but it didn't!



I polished it out with Rupes yellow and it came out 98%. I probably took some clear doing it, but very little.

The rest of the vehicle (2022, 15k, 17mos) had very fine marring not visible even in Sun unless you looked super close, but it was visible under shop lights, so I polished it all. Again, that's enhancement vs correction so I can do that as much as I want to. And, FYI, polishing is dead simple easy. A noob can easily polish an entire car risk free as long as they don't go blue, ie., coarse cutting.

And, FWIW, your experience is why I advise everybody to avoid a ceramic coating unless they also have full PPF: you're gonna get fine marring you'll wanna polish out within 2 years. And if that's not something you'll notice, then you didn't need ceramic in the first place.

So, if I were you, and those swirls bugged me, I'd chalk it up as a minorly expensive lesson and buy a sweet detailing set-up including totl polishers and it'll still be cheaper than even a single additional ceramic coating.

And if you still want ceramic you can do it yourself!