[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Is there even such a thing as meeting your standard of proof? Asking for a friend.

I'm sensing a connection here......2035 LOL

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

* the problem with letting a natural market develop is it would never evolve without massive Government intervention.

Very true, as we all know the government has never spent any money on intervention of the oil industry

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Seriously, is that a thing?

I know members like BGM and fcman and numerous others think I'm anti-EV. I'm not. just think for an OVERALL use case for most every vehicle owner, ICE fits better as a choice. And like most of us discussing the topic, the issue lies with forced adoption. My personal opinion is I think the societal and economic impacts that forced adoption is going to have are not worth the effort. Low-income citizens are going to get screwed by forced EV adoption. Everyone this forum that has an EV also has an ICE vehicle, which I find extremely amusing (no flames meant).

If the market comes to a natural state where ICE is no longer an option for car owners because EV is that much better, then I have no issue*. As I've stated several times in this thread I think a pure serial hybrid (even hybrids in general) are the best solution.

* the problem with letting a natural market develop is it would never evolve without massive Government intervention.

To be fair, I happen to be a bit more intelligent than that. But google "roll coal on tesla" and or other search terms and you might lose even more faith in humanity

[fcman]

I’ve never had anyone mess with me in the Tesla nor have I seen any vandalism. People in trucks fucked with me far more in my flame spitting rx7 or my S2000. That said where I live there are 50 teslas to every lifted truck so that probably helps

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Oh no not this again... The entire US military is built to intervene in the world's oil supply, am I right?

How about corn (ethanol), and other farming subsidies?

Hey now don’t try putting words in my mouth. But if you already have a military, maybe not a bad idea to provide some sort of financial justification

[DrFerry]

Fields of tens of thousands of abandoned brand new EVs in China. Forgive the ad in the video.
.

.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

Very true, as we all know the government has never spent any money on intervention of the oil industry

Here are some FACTS for you.

Debunking Myths About Federal Oil & Gas Subsidies
Now let’s analyze what the oil & gas sector pays in taxes. In 2012 the top two corporations paying federal taxes in the US were ExxonMobil and Chevron paying a combined total of $45.2 billion. On average, the industry pays a 45% tax rate when all state, federal, and foreign taxes are totaled up. By comparison the Healthcare Industry pays a total rate of 35% and the Pharmaceuticals pay an estimated rate of 21%. Based upon these numbers it’s hard to believe which business sector is criticized the most for “subsidies”.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillin...h=6e21c2186e1c

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Here are some FACTS for you.

Debunking Myths About Federal Oil & Gas Subsidies
Now let’s analyze what the oil & gas sector pays in taxes. In 2012 the top two corporations paying federal taxes in the US were ExxonMobil and Chevron paying a combined total of $45.2 billion. On average, the industry pays a 45% tax rate when all state, federal, and foreign taxes are totaled up. By comparison the Healthcare Industry pays a total rate of 35% and the Pharmaceuticals pay an estimated rate of 21%. Based upon these numbers it’s hard to believe which business sector is criticized the most for “subsidies”.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillin...h=6e21c2186e1c

I never said anything about subsidies or taxes

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

I never said anything about subsidies or taxes

Originally Posted by fcman

Very true, as we all know the government has never spent any money on intervention of the oil industry

Doesn't pass the smell test like most of your posts.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I see what you are trying to do here, but you did say sarcastically "government never spent any money on intervention of the gas and oil industry." The only money the Govenment has is from collecting taxes, so ergo...

Ok let me rephrase, I never said anything about subsidies or tax breaks.

[RM7]

It goes so far beyond tax breaks and subsidies. Just one example is companies lease/sell their fields and equipment to progressively smaller oil companies as the profitability starts to diminish, eventually, the company holding the ball can no longer maintain the equipment or clean up the sites. Guess who foots the bill? We do. This exists on so many levels, where we pay and subsidize the industry and their production. Its naive to think otherwise.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll rephrase. The Govenment collects taxes; it's the only money it has.

Yep, but Car-Addicted's article is about tax rates and subsidies for the oil industry

It's also an editorial written by

Drillinginfo
Contributor
We provide analysis and insight on the oil and gas industry.

lol

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Since you like Google definitions:

"U.S. oil and gas subsidies include provisions ranging from incentives for domestic production, write-offs and deductions tied to foreign production and income, and approved accounting methods that can reduce the stated taxable value of assets..."

Money = taxes. Taxes = Money. The Government controls taxes. Therefore...

Yep, like I said before, I never mentioned anything about tax breaks or subsidies.

[chad86tsi]

All this whatabout'ism to defend the EV adoption and al the problems that will come with it by pointing to the evil oil industry is just circular logic.

If doing these yucky things to prop up the oil industry is bad, and we acknowledge the EV industry is whatabouting it too, aren't we just agreeing with the others that say subsidizing, intervening, and whatever else you want to call it being done to prop up EV's is also yucky? It makes a full circle.

EV's come with serious problems. ICE's come with serious problems. If a person says one is bad, and another says "oh yah, well the other is bad too", then no one disagrees, and they are both bad.


To be clear what I mean so this doesn't go sideways:

ICE is yucky because:
Tax dollars are spent on the fuel supply side of the equation
oil extraction is "environmentally bad"
bad gasses enter the atmosphere in their operation.

ICE is yucky because:
Tax dollars are spent on the fuel supply side of the equation
Rare earth and exotic metal extraction is "environmentally bad"
bad gasses enter the atmosphere during their charge cycle.

ICE was allowed to evolve on its own.
EV has not, is not, and will not.

Oil extraction gets government interventions paid by tax dollars. Most familiar with the English language consider this a subsidy. Call it whatever you want.

Power generation and charging infrastructure gets government interventions paid by tax dollars. You ever hear of a public gas station paid for by the government? Most familiar with the English language consider this a subsidy. Call it whatever you want, most of us are likely to call it a subsidy.

EV's themselves get further government interventions paid by tax dollars as literal subsidies< using the strictest and most definitive definition of the word.

ICE's do not. (Except in some cases with Hybrids, which most of us think is great).

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Understood; like most all your posts, you really say nothing of a contributory nature. So your post was pointless.

I just don’t engage with straw man arguments

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. I was waiting for you to bring up strawman; its part of the internet argument trio: logicall fallacy, ad hominem, and strawman. Dude, you are the King of straw man arguments.

Hey, you make ‘em. Don’t kill the messenger

Not my fault that people predisposed to making logical fallacies seem to commit more than one.

And just fyi. Ad hominem and straw man are types of logical fallacies lol

[chad86tsi]

[fcman]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Oh yeah, that's another great one too. Though in this thread it seems to get incorrectly identified after a straw man. Shame

[M5Rick]

Moving the goalposts, now we see

[fcman]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Moving the goalposts, now we see

It is very common to see an incorrect accusation of "moving the goalposts" after a straw man. Considering a strawman is, by definition, shooting at a different goal.

So I can see why it's easy to get confused

[chad86tsi]

Perhaps there is lack situational awareness. Here is the sequence:

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Another Tes EV shocker, new battery needed after just 48 hours after purchase, so car is a write off.

Originally Posted by fcman

The car has 252k miles, pretty good tbh.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Eh, not impressed.

I'm at 421,000 miles on my 2006 E90. Still on original engine, original transmission, and original fuel pump. The E90 has maintained 98.8% of its original MPG average of 27.46 from 0 to 12,700 miles; now overall MPG is 27.14 (0 to 421,000 miles),

Originally Posted by fcman

For every e90 over 200k miles there are a hundred that didn’t even make it to 120k though. I say that as a former N55 car owner and a sister with a busted N52 car, both under 75k miles and both had tons of issues. And I am meticulous with maintenance, had a 2nd gen turbo rx7 that was running strong at 200k.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

High mileage BMWs are common place. They literally have that reputation.

Originally Posted by fcman

Maybe in BMW circles they do. I don't think I've ever talked to someone in person who thought BMWs were reliable, especially amongst the people I know who have owned BMWs. I don't hang out in BMW enthusiast circles though

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You lack situational awareness, apparently.

Originally Posted by fcman

You must spend way too much time online if you truly believe the average person considers BMWs reliable.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Typical of a person of such political persuasion; changes what I said then tries to argue my point is wrong. LOL.

>>>


Just imagine if we asked for proof of this claim:

Originally Posted by fcman

For every e90 over 200k miles there are a hundred that didn’t even make it to 120k though.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Perhaps there is lack situational awareness. Here is the sequence:


Just imagine if we asked for proof of this claim:

OOO, fun. You certainly can, maybe I'll provide it, maybe I'll conceded the claim, or maybe I'll take a page from your or some of the others' book and provide a strawman.



First "Strawman" is not a strawman. lol Nor is it moving the goalposts. It's a rejection of a claim. The claim is "High mileage BMWs are common place. They literally have that reputation." A strawman would require me to post counter evidence of a similar but not equivalent claim (such as posting reliability reports instead of evidence of BMWs reputation )

NEXT.

Here you miss the ad hominem logical fallacy

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You lack situational awareness, apparently.

2nd strawman is also not a strawman, the claim in debate is still "High mileage BMWs are common place. They literally have that reputation." I have provided no evidence or argument relating to anything else, only anecdotes which set a basis for my opinion (and I never alluded to that opinion being fact)

Again another rejection of the claim. Goalpost is still "provide evidence of BMW's reputation", there has been no evidence posted at this point (or to date lol)

NEXT

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Typical of a person of such political persuasion; changes what I said then tries to argue my point is wrong. LOL.

Another Ad hominem, this comment is arguably a red herring fallacy to claim the argument was always about actual reliability/durability rather than BMW's reputation. You fell for it, I didnt. The claim in question is still "High mileage BMWs are common place. They literally have that reputation."

Any more? Or is that all you got?