[fcman]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

He has offered evidence, you want proof. That's moving the goal post. "Proof" is absent from Hitchens edict.


we can never be certain of anything, and so we must assign value to any claim based on the available evidence, and to dismiss something on the basis that it hasn't been proven beyond all doubt is also fallacious reasoning.

He has not provided any evidence of BMWs reputation. If he has, please quote it.

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

No, now you are moving the goal posts back Now he can offer whatever evidence he wishes, and there is little you can do about it.

Nope, still the same goalposts. He can absolutely offer the evidence which supports his claim, he has not done so

[M5Rick]

^ You've ordered a new M2, so have you a current Bm fcman..

[fcman]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^ You've ordered a new M2, so have you a current Bm fcman..

Not yet, but yes I will have one very soon

Sad to see my C7 go though, gonna miss the loud N/A V8

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by fcman

Not yet, but yes I will have one very soon

Sad to see my C7 go though, gonna miss the loud N/A V8

A Corvette I see, quite a come down from 6.2 litres and then the M2 twin turbo 6 is at 456 hp, holy crap that is a pocket rocket ship, no EV for you then

[fcman]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

A Corvette I see, quite a come down from 6.2 litres and then the M2 twin turbo 6 is at 456 hp, holy crap that is a pocket rocket ship, no EV for you then

Yeah, I want something small and sporty with back seats, also came close to buying an 800whp ZL1 1LE a few months ago but the car was catless and in my county the car has to pass emissions to be able to sell it, so the deal fell through.

We have a Tesla Model Y for shuttling the kid to and from school though.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by fcman

Yeah, I want something small and sporty with back seats, also came close to buying an 800whp ZL1 1LE a few months ago but the car was catless and in my county the car has to pass emissions to be able to sell it, so the deal fell through.

We have a Tesla Model Y for shuttling the kid to and from school though.

4WD so should get you out of trouble when the snow comes, so what happens if the main battery should pack up

[fcman]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

4WD so should get you out of trouble when the snow comes, so what happens if the main battery should pack up

Luckily not much snow down here in Georgia. And still have 6+ years and over 100k miles left on my powertrain warranty so if something happens I'll get it replaced. The car will probably be sold/traded in well before the warranty is up.

I think the market will change very quickly though, at this point only around 2% of Teslas have passed the 8 year mark. There just really isn't much of a market yet for 3rd battery repair because a large majority of cars are still under warranty.

We'll see though, I plan on checking out some other EV options eventually, waiting for some attractive 3 rows.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

so what happens if the main battery should pack up

You had to go there?

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So just to play the game, I googled "cars with the reputation for durability". So all kinds of stuff comes up about reliability. Of course in every search result Toyota pops up as the leader for "reliability" "trouble free", "longevity", etc. Some site called "cool stuff" listed the 2023 BMW 4-Series as 4th on their list. So that's interesting to find a 2023 BMW listed as a car that has long term reliability when it's not even a model year old. And why is not the 3-series listed? It's the same car underneath the skin. I could have cited the 4-series as "proof" but I doubted the rating. So I'll take any internet result with a grain of salt.

That is very strange to be sure

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll be happy to go to a Toyota meet and match up my 26-year old non-pampered Z3 to any 26 year old Toyota and see which chassis is in better overall shape.

I think you would be surprised how well a 1997 Supra holds up

[Car-Addicted]

Tesla spontaneously catches fire, firefighters tag Elon Musk in social media post



A Tesla spontaneously caught fire last week while stored in a high-end auto yard, prompting responding firefighters to grab the attention of Elon Musk, head of the electric car company.

Images shared by the Metro Fire of Sacramento show crews hosing down a burned black Tesla on Aug 2 in Rancho Cordova.

The vehicle was salvaged due to flooding in Florida and was idle when it burst into flames, authorities said.

"Crews are unable to move it to a safe location to burn out, the vehicle is blocked in and surrounded by millions of dollars in salvaged vehicles including Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Tesla spontaneously catches fire, firefighters tag Elon Musk in social media post



A Tesla spontaneously caught fire last week while stored in a high-end auto yard, prompting responding firefighters to grab the attention of Elon Musk, head of the electric car company.

Images shared by the Metro Fire of Sacramento show crews hosing down a burned black Tesla on Aug 2 in Rancho Cordova.

The vehicle was salvaged due to flooding in Florida and was idle when it burst into flames, authorities said.

"Crews are unable to move it to a safe location to burn out, the vehicle is blocked in and surrounded by millions of dollars in salvaged vehicles including Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys.

Any salvaged Tesla or indeed any salvaged EV should be kept well away from gas vehicles and it does keep coming back to batteries. Even 'healthy' EV's could combust without warning so a double edged sword here..
Firemen have jacked the T there to hose the battery easier.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fcman

No logical fallacy has been committed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

"the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it."




Nope, I have only asked him to defend his statement that BMW's have a reputation for longevity (he may call it whatever he wishes, I will not hold him to my definitions or descriptions of reliability vs durability). No evidence has been posted about BMW's reputation so I cannot have moved the goalposts

"Shall it not be validated by the internet, then therefore it cannot be true".

Dumass Googleheim's razor...

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by fcman

These examples may show that bmw is committed to the long term for its vehicles, but they do not say anything about BMW’s reputation for building long lasting cars. And keep in mind, you are now discussing the AGE of cars, not the mileage or the overall durability. And the availability of parts has no direct correlation to durability either.

Bmw has a roaring approved used program.
It makes a lot of money this way. Probably more than on selling new cars. So they have an incentive for making their vehicles last. Tesla for eg doesn't have thos...it doesn't even have a extended warranty program for its cars (at least in the UK).

[Car-Addicted]

"The vehicle was salvaged due to flooding in Florida and was idle when it burst into flames"

This raises several questions:
Are all cars with minor flood damage forced into a salvage title? With the batteries making up the belly pan of a EV it will not take much water to submerged the battery and not damage the car. What is to keep someone from selling a flood damaged EV rather than to accepting a insurance settlement?
The used EV market is already depressed without the possibility of damaged EV's showing up.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

"The vehicle was salvaged due to flooding in Florida and was idle when it burst into flames"

This raises several questions:
Are all cars with minor flood damage forced into a salvage title? With the batteries making up the belly pan of a EV it will not take much water to submerged the battery and not damage the car. What is to keep someone from selling a flood damaged EV rather than to accepting a insurance settlement?
The used EV market is already depressed without the possibility of damaged EV's showing up.

If I ever get a Tesla, my vanity plate will be:

EV-BBQ

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If I ever get a Tesla

[fcman]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Bmw has a roaring approved used program.
It makes a lot of money this way. Probably more than on selling new cars. So they have an incentive for making their vehicles last. Tesla for eg doesn't have thos...it doesn't even have a extended warranty program for its cars (at least in the UK).

It's impossible to draw any inferences from this:

There are only ~2% of Teslas out of warranty - maybe they feel there isnt a market need

The powertrain warranty is 8yr/120k - Still longer than many CPO programs anyway (assuming an average mile/yr of 13,500 per FHWA)

Maybe they have done the analysis and used tesla buyers are not concerned about the warranty?

Maybe BMW has done the same analysis and thinks BMW buyers would not buy used without a warranty?

ETC..

Also does the CPO warranty from BMW even come from BMW AG itself or is it an offering from the respective business units BMW NA/BMW UK/etc.?

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by fcman

It's impossible to draw any inferences from this:

There are only ~2% of Teslas out of warranty - maybe they feel there isnt a market need

The powertrain warranty is 8yr/120k - Still longer than many CPO programs anyway (assuming an average mile/yr of 13,500 per FHWA)

Maybe they have done the analysis and used tesla buyers are not concerned about the warranty?

Maybe BMW has done the same analysis and thinks BMW buyers would not buy used without a warranty?

ETC..

Also does the CPO warranty from BMW even come from BMW AG itself or is it an offering from the respective business units BMW NA/BMW UK/etc.?

I'm not sure many buyers especially of used ev's would want to own one out of warranty without an extension. These giga pressed unimodular items probably need a half of a car replaced if there is a problem in a tiny part.
The CPO warranty for UK is underwritten by Allianz which is a giant and extendable indefinitely and in the event of a problem you deal with bmw directly not the insurer.
AFAIK no such provisions for Tesla bar a years limited warranty of 10k miles if bought cpo. That's it.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I'm not sure many buyers especially of used ev's would want to own one out of warranty without an extension. These giga pressed unimodular items probably need a half of a car replaced if there is a problem in a tiny part.
...
AFAIK no such provisions for Tesla bar a years limited warranty of 10k miles if bought cpo. That's it.

Yeah it looks like the way Tesla's used warranty works is they will give you bumper to bumper for 1yr/10k miles (not great mileage) from delivery date or at the end of basic car warranty if still active and then you receive the remaining powertrain warranty as well. I couldnt find any cars for sale on tesla's site that are our of powertrain warranty though, so either there just aren't many out there (like I said only 2%) or they just dont take used cars that are out of warranty, definitely possible.

The CPO warranty fir UK is underwritten by Allianz and extendable indefinitely.m and in the event of a problem you deal with bmw directly not the insurer.

Interesting, makes sense. Do you deal with BMW AG though or BMW UK? I found the CPO documentation from BMW NL and looks all claims have to go through them, which tells me BMW AG is not involved.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by fcman

Interesting, makes sense. Do you deal with BMW AG though or BMW UK? I found the CPO documentation from BMW NL and looks all claims have to go through them, which tells me BMW AG is not involved.

I couldn't possibly answer tbh. I've never needed to claim. I think you turrn up at a dealership pay £150 diagnosis fee and the rest is handled between the dealer and bmw/allianz

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just to be accurate, the USA Tesla battery and drive unit warranty is 8 years or 150,000 miles (I think Tesla increased from 120K). It also states battery degradation of 30% is considered still in service. So considering the usable battery capacity is 80%, losing 30% of the total battery is a significant range reduction. On top of that, a degraded battery also doesn't charge as fast as a non-degraded battery. And I'd expect a degraded battery is more affected by cold winter driving.

So it looks like an impressive warranty (all EV are federally mandated to have 8 years 100,000 miles), in reality considering the range loss and recovery rate loss at 70% total capacity, I'd think owners would not be happy.

In layman's terms... "that would suck".

For sure, I can't say that I've ever heard of someone seeing that much degradation in an otherwise healthy battery though, at least on the newer cars. Generally they seem to fail pretty abruptly if there is an issue.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by fcman

For sure, I can't say that I've ever heard of someone seeing that much degradation in an otherwise healthy battery though, at least on the newer cars. Generally they seem to fail pretty abruptly if there is an issue.

Oddly I just had this conversation with my detailer today. His family owns a Model Y Performance, I believe a 2022. They are very careful with charging, usually to 80% to 90% and they have seen their total mileage drop from 280, to 260... 240 and now it sits around 220.

Tesla does have a battery warranty but Tesla (or Musk in particular), exaggerates Tesla's EV range. In fact, they are being sued for it right now for that. I have not seen anyone say the Model S actually reaches 400 claimed miles. Some testers say the Model S can barely 300 let alone 400.