[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

According to AOC's calculations, we will all be doomed in 2031 anyway, the world will end. 2035 will be way too late.

I don't know AOC but that claim is plain stupid. It's like the mayan calendar 2012 thing ie until 2012 came how could anyone in 2010 really prove that it was utter bs though most sensible people knew it.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

The problem with having charging stations everywhere is the assumption that there is adequate power to serve it/them. Hydrogen generation can be located at a convenient location with plenty of supply, and after concentration it can be moved to where it needs distributed, much like petrol fuels. If could be generated at a solar site during the day when there is plenty of excess energy, made 100% greenly, and them moved to where it's needed.

Charging stations depend on the grid, and that's a whole different story about supply and delivery. Making assumptions is typically bad form, and this scenario is no exception. add to this that most cars are charged at night when there is very little green power, and the flaw in this thinking becomes more egregious.

All this EV stuff depends on something no one seems to be aware of where or how it actually it gets made and delivered. If you don't know where these watts will come from (meaning it's not baked into the plan), you have no business making such plans. And no, "somebody else will figure that out..." is not an acceptable answer.

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

Actually, that’s a pretty reasonable and logical assessment of what’s going to happen. I pretty much agree with what you just wrote. Well said sir.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

Agreed, it's almost like a cult has formed around the EV solution, no one wants to study the problem, they just want it. If EV is a good idea, so is Hydrogen. If Hydrogen is a bad idea, so is EV. I won't tell you what to choose, I'm just here to study the problem (as an engineer).

While I don't question the levels of human stupidity... I still doubt anything is going to happen come 2035 or whatever. Big hoopla over nothing. Either the mandate will go away as soooo much political crap does and no one will even remember it or the grid will grow over the next decade to support it. My guess is some combination of both. The ICE ban will most likely go away AND EV sales will increase forcing upgrades to the grid. Remember when the world was going to end in 2000?

Ah yes, rational thought...

[Z K]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

If we can't handle charging evs I doubt we can handle producing hydrogen at half the efficiency. But I'm no engineer so wtf do it know. I just know if I had to go fill up my model 3 with hydrogen every week it would suck and I would just drive my ICE.

Again, that is looking at people charging at home. As pointed out earlier, the majority of cars are not garaged and so would not be able to charge at home. That makes charging an EV quite bigger chore than going to fill up at a gas station.

The problem with hydrogen is that it is very inefficient. The efficiency of regular EVs is like 60-80% whereas hydrogen is like 30-40%. The cost of hydrogen is also typically more than the straight electricity. Also, the cost of building a hydrogen station is significantly more than building a charging station. Like millions vs thousands.

Yes, but as mentioned before, hydrogen efficiency is increasing. Just Mirai 1 to Mirai 2, they increased hydrogen usage efficiency over 50%. That's just within a few years! Producing hydrogen can get better as well. Japan is pushing this hard and they're making huge progress.

As for cost, as I said, you can plop hydrogen pumps at existing gas stations which is a fraction the cost of building a whole new facility. That is what most hydrogen stations are in California - a hydrogen pump at an existing gas station. And that cost of building a "charging station" is way exaggerated. It is only thousands because that one charging station can charge only a few cars. Plus hydrogen can be produced on site with solar power, there's no need to hook up to the power grid!

For example, Say it costs $100k to build a "charging station" aka a single charger, that charging station can charge maybe 2 cars an hour? Say a hydrogen station is $1M, that's 10x more. That single pump can fill up 30-40 cars an hour. That is still cheaper than the charging station and way more efficient at dispensing fuel/charging.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Disadvantages of hydrogen cars:
Patchy refuelling infrastructure
That's the same problem EV's have.

Technology still expensive –
That's the same problem EV's have

Fuel-cells not as efficient well-to-wheel as BEVs
Gasoline is less efficient than diesel, yet there is a time and place for both.

Cleanliness depends on how hydrogen is produced
That's the same problem EV's have.

What are 2 dangers of using hydrogen as a fuel?
As if there have been no battery fires.

This one is cool: Will hydrogen overtake electric?
Does it need to in order to be a good idea? This isn't some zero sum game where there can only be one solution.

What are the 3 cons of hydrogen?The disadvantages of using hydrogen as fuel

If it is “grey”, it pollutes. If it is not produced using renewable sources, hydrogen pollutes. ...
That's the same problem EV's have.

It is a gas that is difficult to handle. ...
That's the same problem EV's have. you an electrician? you know what it takes to get watts into your car?

It is less advantageous than electric power for cars.
That's the same problem EV's have vs ICE cars.

Let me know when hydrogen surpasses EV.


lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Let me know when hydrogen surpasses EV.


lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Let me know when EV surpasses Gasoline

[BGM-M3COMP]

Let's go elon with more V4 superchargers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one will catch up to sir elon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Let me know when EV surpasses Gasoline

I won't need to let you know. Time will.

2028-2030 is the holy shit it's really gonna happen moment.

2035 is holy fuck i can't believe it happened moment.


On ze move!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Z K

Again, that is looking at people charging at home. As pointed out earlier, the majority of cars are not garaged and so would not be able to charge at home. That makes charging an EV quite bigger chore than going to fill up at a gas station.



Yes, but as mentioned before, hydrogen efficiency is increasing. Just Mirai 1 to Mirai 2, they increased hydrogen usage efficiency over 50%. That's just within a few years! Producing hydrogen can get better as well. Japan is pushing this hard and they're making huge progress.

As for cost, as I said, you can plop hydrogen pumps at existing gas stations which is a fraction the cost of building a whole new facility. That is what most hydrogen stations are in California - a hydrogen pump at an existing gas station. And that cost of building a "charging station" is way exaggerated. It is only thousands because that one charging station can charge only a few cars. Plus hydrogen can be produced on site with solar power, there's no need to hook up to the power grid!

For example, Say it costs $100k to build a "charging station" aka a single charger, that charging station can charge maybe 2 cars an hour? Say a hydrogen station is $1M, that's 10x more. That single pump can fill up 30-40 cars an hour. That is still cheaper than the charging station and way more efficient at dispensing fuel/charging.

From what info I could find the estimate of $100k was to build an 8 stall Tesla supercharger. Makes sense since I would imagine most of the cost is the transformers or what not, the stalls themselves should be pretty cheap. I do not see how hydrogen would ever be cheaper to produce than electricity since you need electricity to make hydrogen. So at the very best it would be at least equal to the cost of electricity... assuming 100% efficiency going from electric to hydrogen and no added costs for the hydrogen conversion part.

Also filling a hydrogen car is not like pumping gas at all. I saw a video of some guy showing how to fill up a hydrogen car. It's significantly slower than gas, not as slow as electric, but definitely not as simple as gas. It seems more like filling propane than pumping gas and I don't know any place that lets you fill your own propane.

However it doesn't really matter at this point IMO. Betamax had better quality than VHS. However it still lost out. Once VHS became widely adopted betamax was done. Point being maybe hydrogen could be more efficient, maybe it could be cheaper, maybe more manufacturers will make hydrogen cars which would increase the likelihood of places investing in hydrogen stations... but it's not right now and BEVs now have a massive head start. Maybe some company in the future will do what Tesla did for BEVs and dump a bunch of money into building hydrogen cars and the infrastructure to support them (with gov help) but until that day I just don't see hydrogen taking off.

Maybe they will coexist. Dunno, but certainly not on at the top of my list of shit to worry about.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Not to mention, SUPER dangerous to handle.

The shit will never work.

BEV all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KRS_SN]

https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/gen...5Hydrogen.html



BMW iX5 Hydrogen with lithium-ion technology, the powertrain of this vehicle brings maximum output of 295 kW / 401 hp to the road. In drive and brake phases, this electric machine also takes on the function of a generator that feeds power back into a high-performance battery.

Together, they hold six kilograms of hydrogen, giving the BMW iX5 Hydrogen a range of 504 km in the WLTP cycle. Refuelling the hydrogen tanks takes only three to four minutes, meaning that the BMW iX5 Hydrogen delivers the driving pleasure you expect from BMW with just a few, short interim stops, even on long routes.

[Patton250]

Lucid for the win. My God it’s not even close. This will be my first EV for sure. Honestly, I feel a little silly for not paying better attention. This thing is luxurious, more horsepower, better looking, better range, and faster charging then Tesla. Then any EV. And don’t even get into the materials they use because it’s not really even fair to compare them. I’ve made no secret of the fact that I love Elon Musk mostly for what he did with Twitter, but he better start making some changes. He needs to use better materials and add back some buttons. He also needs to make his system, android, and Apple friendly.

This young man does a great job in this video. check it out.

[Murf the Surf]

JD Powers survey, growing number of those polled are adamant they won't buy an EV

https://driving.ca/auto-news/awards-...MjMzLjIyLjAuMA..

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

JD Powers survey, growing number of those polled are adamant they won't buy an EV

https://driving.ca/auto-news/awards-...MjMzLjIyLjAuMA..

I can believe that. Most Americans don’t take too kindly to being told what to do especially by gooberment.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

JD Powers survey, growing number of those polled are adamant they won't buy an EV

https://driving.ca/auto-news/awards-...MjMzLjIyLjAuMA..

For the average non-car person, why would they have a compelling reason to switch? For most people, they only know the talking point that they're "better for the environment", but even if they believe that, a cursory internet search isn't likely to persuade them enough. People need a compelling, financial reason to switch over and it needs to be seamless. It has to go beyond the lifestyle phase and one that is practical for the average person.

I think we are quite a ways away from that.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The problem with hydrogen that no one considers is fuel storage and evaporation, called "boil-off". The US Dept of Energy has set goals along with the Society of Automotive Engineets (SAE) for 10% loss over a short duration (30 days). Hydrogen is a cryogenic fuel for fuel cell applications. Its liquid storage temp is -200some degrees and stored at 7,000 -10,000 psi. To engineer and manufacture fail-safe mass-production components is not going to be cheap.

I'd rather take my chances with a gasoline fire.

I was being TIC...If we believe we'll all be able to go bev by 2035 we also have to believe in hydrogen. Can't be selectively stupid.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Lucid for the win. My God it’s not even close. This will be my first EV for sure. Honestly, I feel a little silly for not paying better attention. This thing is luxurious, more horsepower, better looking, better range, and faster charging then Tesla. Then any EV. And don’t even get into the materials they use because it’s not really even fair to compare them. I’ve made no secret of the fact that I love Elon Musk mostly for what he did with Twitter, but he better start making some changes. He needs to use better materials and add back some buttons. He also needs to make his system, android, and Apple friendly.

This young man does a great job in this video. check it out.

They are pretty nice, although not a huge fan of the exterior design. The interior though is super nice. They have a showroom near a shopping plaza we go to and they always bring one out to the plaza for people to check out.

Unfortunately all their models are in the $100k+ range. If they had something to compete with the Model 3 and Y I would be all over it. Then again at that price point you also get the Tycan, although IMO at least on paper the Tycan specs just aren't up to par with the Lucid or Model S unless you go way over $100k. But IMO it's the nicest looking one.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

They are pretty nice, although not a huge fan of the exterior design. The interior though is super nice. They have a showroom near a shopping plaza we go to and they always bring one out to the plaza for people to check out.

Unfortunately all their models are in the $100k+ range. If they had something to compete with the Model 3 and Y I would be all over it. Then again at that price point you also get the Tycan, although IMO at least on paper the Tycan specs just aren't up to par with the Lucid or Model S unless you go way over $100k. But IMO it's the nicest looking one.

So in my view all the sedans now look pretty much the same. A Honda Civic. Just me, the Lucid seems quite nice but honestly not exactly the every man car that government is saying everyone needs to drive.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

So in my view all the sedans now look pretty much the same. A Honda Civic. Just me, the Lucid seems quite nice but honestly not exactly the every man car that government is saying everyone needs to drive.

I have noticed a trend lately where a lot of cars have what I call old man design cues. I can't quite describe it but some parts just have this old man car look to them. I have noticed it a lot in Hyundais and Genesis also. These weird oval steering wheels just kinda give me the heebeegeebees. Same with the puckered up rear ends Hyundai and Genesis seem to like. The trend of bar lights also... sometimes it can look good, but some times they just give me old man vibes. Dunno.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

They are pretty nice, although not a huge fan of the exterior design. The interior though is super nice. They have a showroom near a shopping plaza we go to and they always bring one out to the plaza for people to check out.

Unfortunately all their models are in the $100k+ range. If they had something to compete with the Model 3 and Y I would be all over it. Then again at that price point you also get the Tycan, although IMO at least on paper the Tycan specs just aren't up to par with the Lucid or Model S unless you go way over $100k. But IMO it's the nicest looking one.

Well, according to what I’ve read, they are going to come out with much less expensive versions of it. For whatever reason they wanted to start off at the high-end ones. Either way they charge faster and go further than any other electric vehicle. Plus, they are Apple CarPlay friendly. That’s a must for me to own any vehicle. Of course, they still face the same challenges as the rest of the EV market, and that is lack of charging stations, grid problems, and of course, most important in my opinion charging times.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I was being TIC...If we believe we'll all be able to go bev by 2035 we also have to believe in hydrogen. Can't be selectively stupid.

Ah, gotcha. If we could just figure out a way to make electricity on board using a gasoline "fuel cell". Oh wait...