[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Later this year, I intend to purchase a Ford Mustang Mach E GT to replace the other vehicle in my garage. I decided on the Mach E GT because I believe it will offer better quality than what I could get from competitors, because I like the idea of supporting the local company at this juncture, and because I think it's going to be one hell of a fun vehicle. The reviews of the Mach E have been almost universally positive. By all indications, it's set to become an extremely successful product family for Ford.

So nope, no sir. Deciding to buy an EV is not the same as deciding to buy a Tesla product.

I am interested in the Mach E as well. Honestly Ford did a fantastic job with the car. My main reason I am leaning towards Tesla is the supercharger network.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You need to go drive one.

Disclaimer: I've bought nothing but BMWs for the last 25 years. Going as far back as I can remember I have had nearly nothing but BMWs in my garage. At one point I even have a BMW gasoline car, a BMW diesel, and a BMW electric in my garage. I am about as BMW fan-boi as one can get.

Yet when my C7 Corvette Grand Sport blew an engine at Laguna Seca, and GM decided it's not worth their time to try and fix it and cut me a check for the car, what did I buy?

A Model 3 Dual Motor Long Range.

Not a BMW 3 or 4 series, not a BMW X3, nor any future BMW "I" offerings (I don't need a car, I still have 2 BMWs in the garage for 2 adult drivers). When I test drove a Tesla Dual Motor last October, it drove better, accelerate better, and handled better than ANY BMW I have driven except my Z4 M Coupe. And the Z4 M is hard to live with on a daily basis (although I will if I have to like I have in the past).

Unlike any of the newer BMWs, they handle well despite the weight, the Tesla handled well BECAUSE of the weight. All of it is down low underneath you. None of that 500+ lbs of motor siting high up. So much of the mass is concentrated down low, and there's so much mass improving traction, and so much torque easily available at all times without waiting for an engine to spool up, that it drove like nothing else I've ever driven.

Even compared to the C7 Grand Sport with its massive 6.1 liter V-8, you simply can't compare how quickly all the power and torque is available to you in an electric motor. The Corvette was FAST. Fastest car I've owned. Eye opening fast. But it felt SLOW by comparison. Even though the 0-60 in the Tesla is only marginally faster than the C7, the sensation it delivered is NEXT LEVEL. And the Corvette sits down low, with low ground clearance, and a pushrod V8 sitting as low as possible in the engine bay, and even then you can't compare having ALL the weight of the car sitting fully underneath you, not around your mid-section.

The biggest difference is, the Model 3 came with 235mm wide ALL SEASON tires. So they will give up the ghost long before the Z4 M Coupe in a corner, or the C7 Grand Sport (which came with 285mm front, 335mm rear MICHELIN PILOT CUP 2's). So the maximum speed one can carry in a corner is highly dependent on the tire the Tesla is using. But as for handling and feel? My Dual Motor Long Range will tackle any corner with aplomb and composure.

And since I still have a BMW that will do 600+ miles on a single fill-up (okay, the best I've done is 580 miles, but that's with multiple stints at 100mph on stretches) and can fill up virtually anywhere there's diesel sold, I don't really care one way or another that the Tesla can't be filled up in less than 20 minutes when it's ran dry. In 6 weeks it's only been "topped off" twice. And that's when I plug it in at night, and next morning it's magically filled up.

As a long, LONG time car guy, and an early adapter of electricity as a mode of transportation, but a LATE comer to Tesla, I will say this.

Don't buy a Tesla. Don't EVER buy a Tesla. Because if and when you do, you will see the world entirely differently, and you will never be able to buy a car like a normie anymore.

I walked away from this experience knowing I will never, ever buy a car differently. I test drove a car with zero sales pressure. The guy left a key with me with zero pressure to return it. Never discussed with me when I have to order, never bothered to ask me to put down a deposit. All he said was, "when you're ready to place an order, just go to Tesla.com. And if you have a referral code, make sure you enter it to get free 1,000 miles charging."

We never talked price. Never even whipped out a piece of paper with the "quadrant." No talks of "how much can you afford?" "What's your monthly payment budget?" "What does it take to put you in a Tesla today?" I literally never even talked to a sales person except to arrange for the test drive. And after I placed the order, every thing was handled through an online portal. On the day I picked up the car, it was "here's your key Mr HACK, there's some paperwork in the car. Once you sign it, pull up to the front of the dealership and return it to the attendant. Congratulations."

I was in and out of the "dealership" in less than 30 minutes, and that included time walking over to Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

In the first week I had the car, someone kicked up a piece of rock on the freeway and cracked my windshield. I arranged for service to replace the windshield using my phone's Tesla app, drop the car off the very next Monday, and had the car back on the same day. And again, talked to a "service advisor" for less than 10 minutes, he texted me a Uber voucher good for $200 so I can get around for the rest of the day. Done.

Compared to my last car purchase, which we spent over 2 days back and forth with the dealership haggling, car spent over 9 months at the dealership in the 18 months I owned it, and just the NIGHTMARE process of dealing with a third party that does not have anyone's best interest in mind? This ownership experience has completely changed my perception of how the automotive industry sucks in general and how the whole dealership model is just the worst.

So yeah.

DON'T EVER BUY A TESLA. Heed my words.

wow, an electric motor delivering instant TQ, who would have thought?

And you can't tell me that a model 3 feels balanced, or that it handles well. And I don't mean being comfortable around town. I mean 9 or 10/10 on the track.

One defining question. Have you ever gotten your tesla to slide a corner....

Yeah, I thought not.

It's a quick accelerating appliance. As designed.

P.S. Looking forward to hear your report on how easy going they are when you need to replace battery when the initial current performance (and hence straight line acceleration) drops by 20%

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

wow, an electric motor delivering instant TQ, who would have thought?

And you can't tell me that a model 3 feel balanced, or that it handles well. And I don't mean being comfortable around town. I mean 9 or 10/10 on the track.

One defining question. Have you ever gotten your tesla to slide a corner....

Yeah, I thought not.

It's a quick accelerating appliance. As designed.

How often are you sliding corners on your way to work? Riding 9 or 10/10 on the track?

Have you ever summoned your M2 to pick you up at the front door? Can you take the hands off the wheel and pedals in heavy traffic? Can you walk up to it with no key (just your cellphone) and drive away?

Yeah, I thought not.

I buy cars for their primary intended use.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

How often are you sliding corners on your way to work? Riding 9 or 10/10 on the track?

Have you ever summoned your M2 to pick you up at the front door? Can you take the hands off the wheel and pedals in heavy traffic? Can you walk up to it with no key (just your cellphone) and drive away?

Yeah, I thought not.

I buy cars for their primary intended use.

Are you telling me you don't track your minivan??? Damn, I only bought my F350 because I was told it was faster around the nurburgring than a 911.

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Would never pay that for an S. Also doesn't even exist yet. When their $50k car can do that range, I am down. I don't need the performance(not what this car would be for), long range 3 I test drove was plenty quick enough.

On another note, I asked my insurance agent how much insurance cost on a model 3 long range. His reply was more than the GT4 I have incoming. What the hell, that can't be right. Are people really paying that for insurance? He also said long range and performance premium is the same, since they are both dual motor.

In CA Tesla offers their own insurance, I've heard its generally much less than the big insurance companies. May be worth at least getting a quote if you're in the market.

Porsches tend to have very low insurance rates for their class so it may not be the best comparison. I'd be shocked if it costs more than a Corvette, for example.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

One defining question. Have you ever gotten your tesla to slide a corner....

Yeah, I thought not.

Don’t make assumptions about me you can’t confirm.

But to answer your question. No I have not slide MY Tesla Model 3 through a corner at 9/10th on track. I have, however, done so in SOMEONE ELSE’s Tesla Model 3 at speed, on track.

One was one of our fellow instructor’s Model 3 RW Long Range. He wasn’t made an instructor at the time, I was his last instructor before he was “made.” I got to drive his car angry. And it didn’t disappoint. It didn’t “wow” because I like my track car to make vroom vroom noises. Would I take my Tesla to a Pacific Region BMW CCA DE? Probably once or twice. That’s just the SOP for being my car (had the i3 or the Bolt or the Fiat had enough range to make it to a local track and finish a session without running out of charge, I would have taken them to the track. In fact, those are the ONLY three cars in my possession that I’ve never taken to the track in the last 20 years).

The other was a car belonging to a Tesla engineer that signed up for one of our CCA DEs. I didn’t want to drive that at 9/10th because she was a D student and unlikely to learn or enjoy her car being driven at that speed. But I wrung it out as best as one could in the “C” group (do I need to explain? I will if I have to). Funny thing is, every instructor wanted to take turns on that Tesla. It got driven like the village bicycle that day. But it held up well enough for a fairly early production car.

I think for a track car? Doesn’t pass the vroom vroom test. I would never permanently use it for track. But it holds its own agains most sports sedans. With the right tires it’ll hang with an M car for a lap or two. If there’s only one track day left in the world? There’s no way I’d take the Tesla out of the three cars left in the garage. If I’m doing 6-8 weekends again once the COVID thing is done? There’s absolutely no way I’d not use the Model 3 for at least 1 weekend at the track (if it’s the right track, like Auto Club Speedway where there’s 240V plugs available in the garage, or Laguna, or Buttonwillow where there’s a Supercharger near by).

[P1]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Hence why this thread is a mess.

The OP has been brainwashed into believing there is only one manufacturer building viable EVs. This, even as he declares his brand independence. That's the power of social media hype combined with failure to do homework.

There are two threads here:

"When will you buy an EV?"
"Would you ever buy a Tesla?"

The first one could be a productive discussion. The second has been rehashed 97 times on this forum alone is repost after repost after repost. I was going to attempt to fix the situation, but this hydra has run amok too long to be stopped so it is what it is.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[ASAP]

What would prevent me from buying a Tesla is mainly the fact that they are not interested in a drivers car... the company is setup to run like a software company and ultimately that does not equal drivers engagement nor enthusiasm. The 2nd thing would be overall build quality... as far as electric cars in general... nothing would stop be from buying a Porsche Taycan other than the fact that I cannot afford one.

As far as hate on Elon... well there are at least 50 reasons that I can name right off the bat where dislike for him would be warranted. He is super shady in mind and brought his company to the top due to consistent investor over promises, massive government incentives, a massive California progressive population / Hollywood elite that helped his product and then later hating on that very state that gave him almost everything he had and blackmailing them into leaving for having to pay taxes... talk about being a two faced person. He literally played the system in everyway to take Tesla to the top and ultimately the financials of his company would not have allowed any other to survive.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

How often are you sliding corners on your way to work? Riding 9 or 10/10 on the track?

Have you ever summoned your M2 to pick you up at the front door? Can you take the hands off the wheel and pedals in heavy traffic? Can you walk up to it with no key (just your cellphone) and drive away?

Yeah, I thought not.

To answer your questions:

How often are you sliding corners on your way to work?

3 times per week minimum. More so when it's wet or slippery. I have 2 opportunities a day. First is a exit of a roundabout which connects to a increasing radius uphill right hander. Clear view of both sides of the road and what is coming at you. If I nail the exit of the roundabout right, I can keep the drift going well up the hill. Super rewarding feeling.

The second is leaving work. There is a private road I take, which had a perfect 90 degree slightly downhill left curve. On the way to work is far too busy, but on the way from work it's mainly people leaving, and traffic is scarce.

Riding 9 or 10/10 on the track?

4-5 times per year. Will be more when I get back stateside for sure. Been in the advanced groups for a few years now. Never had a desire to teach millennials how to drive, so never made an effort to be an instructor.

Have you ever summoned your M2 to pick you up at the front door? Can you take the hands off the wheel and pedals in heavy traffic? Can you walk up to it with no key (just your cellphone) and drive away?

No, never. None of the things you listed cause driver enjoyment, or lead to driver engagement. So no, never even gave any of this any thought or consideration.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Don’t make assumptions about me you can’t confirm.

But to answer your question. No I have not slide MY Tesla Model 3 through a corner at 9/10th on track. I have, however, done so in SOMEONE ELSE’s Tesla Model 3 at speed, on track.

One was one of our fellow instructor’s Model 3 RW Long Range. He wasn’t made an instructor at the time, I was his last instructor before he was “made.” I got to drive his car angry. And it didn’t disappoint. It didn’t “wow” because I like my track car to make vroom vroom noises. Would I take my Tesla to a Pacific Region BMW CCA DE? Probably once or twice. That’s just the SOP for being my car (had the i3 or the Bolt or the Fiat had enough range to make it to a local track and finish a session without running out of charge, I would have taken them to the track. In fact, those are the ONLY three cars in my possession that I’ve never taken to the track in the last 20 years).

The other was a car belonging to a Tesla engineer that signed up for one of our CCA DEs. I didn’t want to drive that at 9/10th because she was a D student and unlikely to learn or enjoy her car being driven at that speed. But I wrung it out as best as one could in the “C” group (do I need to explain? I will if I have to). Funny thing is, every instructor wanted to take turns on that Tesla. It got driven like the village bicycle that day. But it held up well enough for a fairly early production car.

I think for a track car? Doesn’t pass the vroom vroom test. I would never permanently use it for track. But it holds its own agains most sports sedans. With the right tires it’ll hang with an M car for a lap or two. If there’s only one track day left in the world? There’s no way I’d take the Tesla out of the three cars left in the garage. If I’m doing 6-8 weekends again once the COVID thing is done? There’s absolutely no way I’d not use the Model 3 for at least 1 weekend at the track (if it’s the right track, like Auto Club Speedway where there’s 240V plugs available in the garage, or Laguna, or Buttonwillow where there’s a Supercharger near by).

So what I'm reading between the lines is that driving a Tesla at the track is kind of like dating a fat girl. It can be fun, but you don't want your friends to see you.

I have driven S, X and 3 at the limit at a test track. I've also had the pleasure of doing the same with many exotics on a closed course. I would rather take a Fiat Abarth around a track than any Tesla.

Tracks don't have the infrastructure to support EVs, and they take way too long to charge.

And you already reached a conclusion that something is missing from the driving experience.

I get EVs as people movers, and they have potential to be more fun in the future. Torque vectoring of a 3 motor EV would be way better than M active diff. But today does not exist. Today's EVs don't come close to offering the driver experience of a good IC sports car.

[bucketfoot]

Originally Posted by ASAP

He literally played the system in everyway to take Tesla to the top and ultimately the financials of his company would not have allowed any other to survive.

Not an Elon fan or foe, but I'm sorry, how do you fault him for doing what virtually every other company does.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by bucketfoot

Not an Elon fan or foe, but I'm sorry, how do you fault him for doing what virtually every other company does.

Have you seen my comments on the bailouts?

Cannot blame me for this one...

[dvq]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

In CA Tesla offers their own insurance, I've heard its generally much less than the big insurance companies. May be worth at least getting a quote if you're in the market.

Porsches tend to have very low insurance rates for their class so it may not be the best comparison. I'd be shocked if it costs more than a Corvette, for example.

Regarding their insurance quotes, initially, it was massively uncompetitive. Now it's just moderately uncompetitive. Higher price, for less coverage, and some weird limitations on claims in conditions for permissive use ($15K limit on claims or injury, etc if you let someone use your car).

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Have you seen my comments on the bailouts?

Cannot blame me for this one...

Were you not around in 2008? I'm assuming you will also never buy ANY American made vehicle due to your moral objections to "bailouts".

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Were you not around in 2008? I'm assuming you will also never buy ANY American made vehicle due to your moral objections to "bailouts".

disregard the "moral objection"... you're still 100% correct lol

[shadowfax]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38579/...ng-and-serious
Link title: These Repair Bulletins for Tesla's Quality Problems Are Downright Embarrassing—and Serious.

I haven't read much what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says about other automobile manufacturers, but the Tesla ones don't sound good.

[mousefarmer]

It is embarrassing seeing the issues with Teslas like bumpers falling off, sunroofs bursting, huge panel gaps, doors that don't close because they are misaligned and more recently bursting side windows.

Now I've read that they are using double pane glass on the side windows for the Model 3 that would ordinarily make it much quieter but reports from users say its actually making it noisier plus there are reports of them bursting apart recently, not sure if its related to the double pane glass.

When they were trying to use robots for everything before this was something I would expect would take time to figure out so give them a break but now that they have sort of given up on robots for everything its inexcusable.

Also, how are they gonna mass produce and ramp up production when the quality is something like a made in Mexico Fiat factory? Ramping up production and high defect & return rate doesn't seem like its gonna work well. Low defect rate and high production would be preferable.

Its been at least a year since the transition from robots as was reported with still major issues. It doesn't seem like they are taking quality and defects seriously so I don't think I would consider a new Tesla until they get this taken care of.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38579/...ng-and-serious
Link title: These Repair Bulletins for Tesla's Quality Problems Are Downright Embarrassing—and Serious.

I haven't read much what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says about other automobile manufacturers, but the Tesla ones don't sound good.

As annoying as the Tesla fanboys are (and they are extremely annoying) I would hate to see any of them lose their life because their Model 3 was missing suspension fasteners. That's absolutely horrifying.

[c1pher]

I would rather pay extra and buy either the etron GT or Taycan Turbo.

[jmg]

Bought the stock, skipping the car.

[spiceyxi]

Originally Posted by jmg

Bought the stock, skipping the car.

Bought the Tequila, skipping the stock.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by jmg

Bought the stock, skipping the car.

Originally Posted by spiceyxi

Bought the Tequila, skipping the stock.

Bought stock in Tequila