[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Our local track just banned EVs because they are not equipped to face an electric car fire. I heard it's so hard contain that most of the time firefighters will just let them burn up, it can be almost impossible to stop.

Yeah, fires from a lithium battery can be extremely difficult to extinguish.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

How much of that was influenced by government as opposed to what people wanted to buy? In the US, the sales rightfully lagged because the electric variants are pretty crap, like all electric cars.

Many people don’t share your opinion that electric cars are crap, I know quite a few car enthusiasts who have both and are quite happy with their EVs.

In Europe people are free to buy what they want, but the cost of running EVs is substantially lower there compared with ICEs, even when the higher purchase price is taken into account.

The UK now has 70 BEV models to choose from, with higher demand and consequent wait times than ICEs in the same segment. Manufacturers can’t sell ICE only vehicles there from 2030. Consumers overall are demanding EVs there, although supply is more of an issue, it looks as though the tipping point has been reached: https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2022/0...ectric-vehicle

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/new-c...guide-updated/

The US has always been behind Europe in adopting new automotive technology, 25% of vehicle sales in China are now BEVs, too. The European and Korean manufacturers are just not investing much in ICE development anymore, the new platforms are almost all focused on BEVs, so it is unlikely ICE market share is going anywhere other than down.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by zero21

I'd be interested to know how steep the performance drop off is over a session, and how long that battery lasts.

For the Taycan, no noticeable change, less powertrain or cooling issues than with a typical M2/3/4 or non GT3 Porsche. For the Tesla Model S and 3, quite a bit of powertrain cooling and reduced power issues from those who have also tracked them in our club.

In terms of battery life, there shouldn’t be any issues for a properly engineered system (as Porsche certainly seem to have), as the charge rates on a 200kW charger are about equivalent to the discharge rates of a 500kW motor that spends about 1/2 of its time at full power, 1/3 at a steady low power rate while cornering and 1/6 of the time at full regen (at say 300kW) under braking. Most Li Ion batteries can give over 1000 full charges when using a decent battery management system, equivalent to about 500,000km of general use or about 100,000km of hard track use, not dissimilar to ICE engine lifespan and likely similar cost.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

If this is what makes you cheer, I’m not impressed.

It is technically a very interesting vehicle. I’m certainly more impressed with it than with any Luddite I’ve ever come across.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Our local track just banned EVs because they are not equipped to face an electric car fire. I heard it's so hard contain that most of the time firefighters will just let them burn up, it can be almost impossible to stop.

Extremely rare verses ICE Car-B-Q’s

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Many people don’t share your opinion that electric cars are crap, I know quite a few car enthusiasts who have both and are quite happy with their EVs.

In Europe people are free to buy what they want, but the cost of running EVs is substantially lower there compared with ICEs, even when the higher purchase price is taken into account.

The UK now has 70 BEV models to choose from, with higher demand and consequent wait times than ICEs in the same segment. Manufacturers can’t sell ICE only vehicles there from 2030. Consumers overall are demanding EVs there, although supply is more of an issue, it looks as though the tipping point has been reached: https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2022/0...ectric-vehicle

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/new-c...guide-updated/

The US has always been behind Europe in adopting new automotive technology, 25% of vehicle sales in China are now BEVs, too. The European and Korean manufacturers are just not investing much in ICE development anymore, the new platforms are almost all focused on BEVs, so it is unlikely ICE market share is going anywhere other than down.

Doesn’t really sound like a choice.

From the first link:

“ Rising penalties on internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles are cited as the main driver to buy an EV in the UK (46%), followed by environmental concerns (45%).”

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by aerobod

It is technically a very interesting vehicle. I’m certainly more impressed with it than with any Luddite I’ve ever come across.

Interesting if you don’t have a pulse and owning a car with an IPad glued to the dash is considered “technology” and “Luxury”

It’s clear we all have different values and tastes, if what some people have can be called that.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Was this written by ChatGPT?

So much to unpack there from a historical American political perspective...

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by M3WC

There are millions of the population that live in dense urban areas with no home garages. So no, many don't or will not have the ability to charge in their garage. Road tripping is a whole different issue.

Then there are the folks that live in older parts of large cities that don't have a garage and must rely on street parking. This issue has been popping up where people want/expect a dedicated parking spot in front of their home so they can install some form of charging. Municipalities who are pro-EV are denying these requests. There are significant hurtles to overcome if governments expect 100% adoption.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Then there are the folks that live in older parts of large cities that don't have a garage and must rely on street parking. This issue has been popping up where people want/expect a dedicated parking spot in front of their home so they can install some form of charging. Municipalities who are pro-EV are denying these requests. There are significant hurtles to overcome if governments expect 100% adoption.

They seem to just be ignoring or worse denying these facts. Of course five minute charging will fix all of this. There will be no need for home charges at that point. Without five minute charging, the threads token troll can lolololol all he wants but EV will never be more than an addition to a middle middle or upper middle class Family’s ice fleet mostly for “hey look at me I’m a green” reasons at neighborhood tofu parties. Dumb ass executive branch mandates like Mr. Trolls favored 2035 are reversed all the time by future executive branches when it becomes obvious the mandate is impossible to achieve. Remember, this is America not the EU. We have one executive government here that changes hands every four years. We are not subject to an overlord continental government like European countries are.

I have 6 cars at my house. 3 are mine . I absolutely have considered getting an EV for my wife to replace her X3 in the near future. Probably a Porsche Taycan 4S or some other SUV type EV. I will be replacing my house electrical panel to a 200 amp service so I can have an electrical charger set up in the near future if I need it. So idea of me being against electric vehicles is of course total Barbara Streisand. I’ve already stated a half a dozen times what I’m against.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Doesn’t really sound like a choice.

From the first link:

“ Rising penalties on internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles are cited as the main driver to buy an EV in the UK (46%), followed by environmental concerns (45%).”

You can pay more to pollute with an ICE, or over the full lifecycle less if you have an EV. The government in the UK is incenting clean air in cities via the tax on fuel.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Interesting if you don’t have a pulse and owning a car with an IPad glued to the dash is considered “technology” and “Luxury”

It’s clear we all have different values and tastes, if what some people have can be called that.

I think the horse and cart brigade felt the same way when the internal combustion engine first came along

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by aerobod

In Europe people are free to buy what they want, but the cost of running EVs is substantially lower there compared with ICEs, even when the higher purchase price is taken into account.

that´s was two years ago....

[akin67]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Was this written by ChatGPT?

I guess when someone provides a well researched and FACTUAL response you assume it is a response by Chatgpt. Some of us in this country still place a great value on education, perhaps you should try it sometimes.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by akin67

I guess when someone provides a well researched and FACTUAL response you assume it is a response by Chatgpt. Some of us in this country still place a great value on education, perhaps you should try it sometimes.

Or we just at the point of AI development that an AI can simulate someone with deep insights and unbiased views

This thread though…

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider.1127

that´s was two years ago....

Still is now, but the incentives will obviously disappear as the momentum behind BEVs displaces ICEs from the market and the grid and renewal electricity generation have to adapt. It is unlikely the cost per km/mile of the same class and age of ICE will ever be below that of a BEV again. https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/1...-vs-refuelling

[akin67]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Funny how you truncated my post to leave out the answer to your question; I already stated this in that post, "It is unrefutably clear that the Government is forcing the creation of the EV market. The most recent examples are the $5B Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, and just this past week, the EPA's new proposed emissions regulations." Oh, I should have included the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. That's where Uncle Sam reupped on the $7,500 (max) EV tax rebate.

Sometimes the government needs to get into industrial policy. Our economic competitors, China, Japan, Korea and even the EU all have industrial policies in place that support nascent but vital industries of the future. If we did not do the same we would be left behind. If we do not support the EV industry today, it is not going to prevent the transition to electric vehicles. All you would be doing is to ensure the vehicles everyone will be driving in 20 years will be from China, Japan, Korea and Germany. Also, advances in technology will have far broader impacts than just EVs. Being able to make more compact, lighter and efficient batteries will effect hundreds of industries. How can we afford not to subsidize and incentivize American industry to pursue these developments? We have always provided subsidies to certain industries. We continue to provide billions of dollars annually in subsidies to the oil industry. We do the same with the agricultural industry. Even when the price of oil was over $100 a barrel where industry had every incentive to invest on their own, we continued to provide those subsidies. Why is it bad now that we are subsidizing the EV and battery industries?

No one is forcing anyone to purchase an EV or not purchase an ICE vehicle. And they wont for decades to come. Buy whichever you prefer.

[akin67]

This is from the Shanghai Motor Show last week. You can see what is coming from China in next few years.

. If we don't develop competitive EV technologies in the US, these are the vehicles Americans will be driving.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

A
Net zero
Decarbonisation
Air source heat pumps
EV mandates

B
Hunger,Poverty,Homelessness
Interest rates
Need to get to work in a cheap car
Need to put food on the table

The world has gone mad with its priorities... B first before splurging money on A please.

Tell me about it..

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by akin67

This is from the Shanghai Motor Show last week. You can see what is coming from China in next few years.

. If we don't develop competitive EV technologies in the US, these are the vehicles Americans will be driving.

I remember that top gear UK piece from like 15 years ago when Jeremy Clarkson was like, “sooner or later we’ll all be driving Chinese cars.”

Guess he might be right after all.

But china already has some pretty cool ev.

We need America to keep pushing to compete! We need to take over with our ev’s!!!!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by akin67

Sometimes the government needs to get into industrial policy. Our economic competitors, China, Japan, Korea and even the EU all have industrial policies in place that support nascent but vital industries of the future. If we did not do the same we would be left behind. If we do not support the EV industry today, it is not going to prevent the transition to electric vehicles. All you would be doing is to ensure the vehicles everyone will be driving in 20 years will be from China, Japan, Korea and Germany. Also, advances in technology will have far broader impacts than just EVs. Being able to make more compact, lighter and efficient batteries will effect hundreds of industries. How can we afford not to subsidize and incentivize American industry to pursue these developments? We have always provided subsidies to certain industries. We continue to provide billions of dollars annually in subsidies to the oil industry. We do the same with the agricultural industry. Even when the price of oil was over $100 a barrel where industry had every incentive to invest on their own, we continued to provide those subsidies. Why is it bad now that we are subsidizing the EV and battery industries?

No one is forcing anyone to purchase an EV or not purchase an ICE vehicle. And they wont for decades to come. Buy whichever you prefer.

I'm sure I'll get booted if I respond with political commentary, so I'll refrain from explaining these errors of thought. But simply, subsidies are just the Government taxing industry less than it really wants to. Personal tax rebates for EV are just compensating for the price delta between the cost of ICE and EV (battery cost) to make EV somewhat affordable to adopt. The next forcing function to adopt to EV is a massive increase in the motor fuel tax. Just wait.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by akin67

This is from the Shanghai Motor Show last week. You can see what is coming from China in next few years.

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I remember that top gear UK piece from like 15 years ago when Jeremy Clarkson was like, “sooner or later we’ll all be driving Chinese cars.”

Guess he might be right after all.

But china already has some pretty cool ev.

Read up on new IRA legislation.

China is on the "foreign entity of concern" list. They will never qualify for the IRA $7500 tax credits, due to this. Being down $7500 to competitors is a massive barrier to entry into the US market.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by akin67

Sometimes the government needs to get into industrial policy. Our economic competitors, China, Japan, Korea and even the EU all have industrial policies in place that support nascent but vital industries of the future. If we did not do the same we would be left behind. If we do not support the EV industry today, it is not going to prevent the transition to electric vehicles. All you would be doing is to ensure the vehicles everyone will be driving in 20 years will be from China, Japan, Korea and Germany. Also, advances in technology will have far broader impacts than just EVs. Being able to make more compact, lighter and efficient batteries will effect hundreds of industries. How can we afford not to subsidize and incentivize American industry to pursue these developments? We have always provided subsidies to certain industries. We continue to provide billions of dollars annually in subsidies to the oil industry. We do the same with the agricultural industry. Even when the price of oil was over $100 a barrel where industry had every incentive to invest on their own, we continued to provide those subsidies. Why is it bad now that we are subsidizing the EV and battery industries?

No one is forcing anyone to purchase an EV or not purchase an ICE vehicle. And they wont for decades to come. Buy whichever you prefer.

exactly....the whole thing about forcing people to EV's is a bizarre go to falacy for the anti-EV crowd

Nobody on this board will out live the last ICE vehicles on the road