[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

It doesnt matter who Max's teammate is - none can compare and none will come close to him. And he's never lose a WDC to some who is below mediocre like Ros.

But wait. The very year Rosberg won, Verstappen finished 5th. In other words, Verstappen lost the championship to a ‘below mediocre’ driver. Nice try, fanboi.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

But wait. The very year Rosberg won, Verstappen finished 5th. In other words, Verstappen lost the championship to a ‘below mediocre’ driver. Nice try, fanboi.

Nice try, but no. Ros was driving the most dominant car in F1 history (2 seconds per lap faster in race pace) - Helen Keller could have won in the car. Mazepin could have won in that car - same with Latifi and Sargent - the car was so good the pilot did not matter and MB proved that for 7 years. If Max were in the other MB seat, Ros never would have won that year, and if he were in Ros' seat, Ham never would have won. This is why Ham told MB he did not want Max on the team. He was afraid of what happened in 2021 happening in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020 - a guy with more talent coming in and showing him up in his own car...and yet Max did it in a slower car in 2021 anyway.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Nice try, but no. Ros was driving the most dominant car in F1 history (2 seconds per lap faster in race pace) - Helen Keller could have won in the car. Mazepin could have won in that car - same with Latifi and Sargent - the car was so good the pilot did not matter and MB proved that for 7 years. If Max were in the other MB seat, Ros never would have won that year, and if he were in Ros' seat, Ham never would have won. This is why Ham told MB he did not want Max on the team. He was afraid of what happened in 2021 happening in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020 - a guy with more talent coming in and showing him up in his own car...and yet Max did it in a slower car in 2021 anyway.

Wait. So Verstappen ‘won’ in 2021 in slower car but didn’t win in 2016 in a slower car ? Cognitive dissonance much ?

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Wait. So Verstappen ‘won’ in 2021 in slower car but didn’t win in 2016 in a slower car ? Cognitive dissonance much ?

Are you a new DTS fan? I actually thought you'd been a fan longer...guess I was wrong. A car being a couple tenths slower that a driver can make up is different than being in a car seconds per lap slower. Again, it took very little talent to win in that MB from 2014 to 2020. ANY F1, F2, F3, F4, Indy, Le Mans, IMSA, WEC, or even your local SCCA champ would have done the same in that car.

[M5Rick]

Spain 2016

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Are you a new DTS fan? I actually thought you'd been a fan longer...guess I was wrong. A car being a couple tenths slower that a driver can make up is different than being in a car seconds per lap slower. Again, it took very little talent to win in that MB from 2014 to 2020. ANY F1, F2, F3, F4, Indy, Le Mans, IMSA, WEC, or even your local SCCA champ would have done the same in that car.

Your grandma too ? LOL

[MontyB1]

I’m always confused by this.

You need no talent at all to win in a Mercedes
You need supreme talent to win in a Red Bull

Explain that too me, always fine the analogy shall I say somewhat bizarre. Was it the same when Vettel was winning in the car for 4 years before MB was? He is supreme as well, would win in anything…?

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

I’m always confused by this.

You need no talent at all to win in a Mercedes
You need supreme talent to win in a Red Bull

Explain that too me, always fine the analogy shall I say somewhat bizarre. Was it the same when Vettel was winning in the car for 4 years before MB was? He is supreme as well, would win in anything…?

Monty, please. Don't try adding logic to this conversation. It's an election year. We can't handle that.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

I’m always confused by this.

You need no talent at all to win in a Mercedes
You need supreme talent to win in a Red Bull

Explain that too me, always fine the analogy shall I say somewhat bizarre. Was it the same when Vettel was winning in the car for 4 years before MB was? He is supreme as well, would win in anything…?

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Monty, please. Don't try adding logic to this conversation. It's an election year. We can't handle that.

I'm staying out of this for my mental health. But carry on, it's interesting reading

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

I’m never confused by this.

You need no talent at all to win in a Mercedes rocket
You need supreme talent to win in a slower Red Bull

FTFY

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Nice try, but no. Ros was driving the most dominant car in F1 history (2 seconds per lap faster in race pace) - Helen Keller could have won in the car. Mazepin could have won in that car - same with Latifi and Sargent - the car was so good the pilot did not matter and MB proved that for 7 years. If Max were in the other MB seat, Ros never would have won that year, and if he were in Ros' seat, Ham never would have won. This is why Ham told MB he did not want Max on the team. He was afraid of what happened in 2021 happening in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020 - a guy with more talent coming in and showing him up in his own car...and yet Max did it in a slower car in 2021 anyway.

Why aren't you saying the same thing about Max? It has been reported Max didn't want to drive against Lewis in a Redbull either.

It’s funny that you even say this. Redbull has never fielded a competitive teammate against Max, compared to Lewis who arguably has the greatest competition of teammates ever (multiple WDC winners).

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by Innovade

Why aren't you saying the same thing about Max? It has been reported Max didn't want to drive against Lewis in a Redbull either.

It’s funny that you even say this. Redbull has never fielded a competitive teammate against Max, compared to Lewis who arguably has the greatest competition of teammates ever (multiple WDC winners).

Interestingly it seems Red Bull are close to signing Sainz as a replacement to Perez for 2025. The stumbling block, Max, he doesn’t want a competitive driver in the second (I don’t get the same new parts) car. Seems because of the fallout from his Dad and Hornys weakness at the moment and the threat he might go to Mercedes they are treating him with kid gloves.

Rumour has it if Sainz does join that they could breach the cost cap with the number of extra staff required to pick the toys from the floor from Max not getting what he wants.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Rumour has it if Sainz does join that they could breach the cost cap with the number of extra staff required to pick the toys from the floor from Max not getting what he wants.

LOL...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

Interestingly it seems Red Bull are close to signing Sainz as a replacement to Perez for 2025. The stumbling block, Max, he doesn’t want a competitive driver in the second (I don’t get the same new parts) car. Seems because of the fallout from his Dad and Hornys weakness at the moment and the threat he might go to Mercedes they are treating him with kid gloves.

Rumour has it if Sainz does join that they could breach the cost cap with the number of extra staff required to pick the toys from the floor from Max not getting what he wants.

Originally Posted by 3798j

LOL...

.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Innovade

It’s funny that you even say this. Redbull has never fielded a competitive teammate against Max, compared to Lewis who arguably has the greatest competition of teammates ever (multiple WDC winners).

I hadn’t thought in those terms. It’s true, though. Although it doesn’t diminish Verstappen skills.

Hamilton teamed against 3 champions; Alonso, Button and Nico Rosberg. Schumacher against 4; Hill, Button, Raikkonen and Rosberg. Prost against 5; Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Senna, Mansell and Hill. Verstappen none. And he has a solid car and team, whist his competition cannot figure out the day that comes after Tuesday. It sure puts things in perspective.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

.

My Orange Army top is all ready for the Dutch my friend

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

I hadn’t thought in those terms. It’s true, though. Although it doesn’t diminish Verstappen skills.

Hamilton teamed against 3 champions; Alonso, Button and Nico Rosberg. Schumacher against 4; Hill, Button, Raikkonen and Rosberg. Prost against 5; Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Senna, Mansell and Hill. Verstappen none. And he has a solid car and team, whist his competition cannot figure out the day that comes after Tuesday. It sure puts things in perspective.

Verstappen is a great driver. One of the best to ever touch a Formula 1 car. His competition is going to do a disservice to his legacy though. Whether it be because of himself or those around him, when comparing greats across different eras, your barometer will be against the competition he faced in similar machinery.

[G30M]

At the Goodwood Festival of Speed Newey drove a Ferrari in RB branded attire and then jumped into his own Aston Martin Valkyrie to go home ...

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Innovade

Why aren't you saying the same thing about Max? It has been reported Max didn't want to drive against Lewis in a Redbull either.

It’s funny that you even say this. Redbull has never fielded a competitive teammate against Max, compared to Lewis who arguably has the greatest competition of teammates ever (multiple WDC winners).

Well, first of all Ham never raced against Ros as a world champ (nor does it count in your history of teammates if you never raced against the guy AS a reigning WDC champ) - Ros beat ham and retired, so he was never a WDC WHEN they raced. The simple fact that he lost to a driver who was as mediocre as Ros says a lot. Then they signed Bot who Ham loved because he wasnt very good and would invert or move over every time they asked him (which happened quite often). He got all of the upgrades when Alo didnt and surely was favored at Mclaren and still only won due to a cheating scandal the FIA covered up. Then, until he obtained his 80-100 hp advantage in the most dominant car in F1 history, he got smokes by Vet for 4 years straight, and I dont rank Vet all that highly.

Max has mostly all top rated ex teammates - and most of his teammates are considered some of the better talent on the grid - Sai, Alb, Gas. Sai is arguably to most a top 3-5 driver and Alb is right up there too. Sai is certainly better than Rus, But, Bot, Ros. All in all, other than Alo, Ham has not had a teammate I would rate all that highly. Beyond that, Ham always had trouble keeping mediocre talent behind him and never really pulled away from them - the gaps were not very big. Max on the other hand has destroyed all of his teammates so badly they never get anywhere close to him.
He destroyed Sai when he was just a rookie and Sai an F1 veteran.
Max then raced against Ric (who, at the time was quite good and better than Ros, But, and Bot) and was at the top of his game and one of the top 2 or 3 drivers when Max came into F1. He then beat Ric into submission and he ran away scared. Then game Gas, who got destroyed, then Alb and then Per. It doesnt matter who is against Max. He has shown in slow cars what he can do, and in a good car he has shown he not only can win at a faster clip than the MB could (despite not having ANY advantage except him driving the car). Max has though 9 seasons only had a good car for 2.5 of them, yet 3 WDCs, and got to 100 podiums and 60 wins faster than Ham could. That alone tells you all you need to know. Ham, it took 10 years in the best car, and most of them in the most dominant car to do it.

Max, in a slower car, put down Ham in 2021 and then flat out embarrassed him the last 2 years. Beating him in a slower car alone is quite the start to his legacy. Meanwhile, Ham has a hard time beating a very, very average Rus.

I would also argue that Max's WDCs have more weight to them. He beat a faster MB in 2021, and then in the most competitive era of F1 ever seen - closest and most competitive field in history, budget caps, limited/restricted testing for top teams - this has been about who is driving the best and to do it in the way Max has (records galore) it is more impressive. When Ham won with MB there was literally no competition after the MB car. The rest of the field was so far away that it wasnt even racing. There was little to no skill or talent involved in winning in that car as witnessed by Ros winning a WDC, and so I would devalue any WDC won during that period. And once that massive power advantage was lost, the true skill of Ham, or lackthere of showed in spades as well as the reappearance of his dirty and amateur level driving when faced with wheel to wheel action. A guy who hasnt won in nearly 3 years despite having a top 2 or 3 car and often times, Toto claiming they had the fastest car on track.

To me Ham is very much like Lebron James. The numbers Lebron has from just a punchline perspective look good, but then you dive into them you realize that they arent really that impressive all things considered. Michael Jordan only played 14 NBA seasons whereas Lebron took 21 season to beat his numbers and Lebron even with super teams still lost in 6 NBA finals (never could carry a team to victory) whereas MJ won all 6 he went to. His stats arent based on greatness, just longevity. Then you look at a guy like Luka Doncik, and through 1300 NBA games, his stats are WAY better than Lebron's were in points score, rebounds, assists, and his shoot averages are a good bit better.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by G30M

At the Goodwood Festival of Speed Newey drove a Ferrari in RB branded attire and then jumped into his own Aston Martin Valkyrie to go home ...

Horner: Lucky barsteward

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I would also argue that Max's WDCs have more weight to them. He beat a faster MB in 2021, and then in the most competitive era of F1 ever seen

Predictable. When anybody else beats the defending champion, he’s a subpar driver. When your guy beats the defending champion, he’s the best.

Your spaghetti logic is epic. More please.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Predictable. When anybody else beats the defending champion, he’s a subpar driver. When your guy beats the defending champion, he’s the best.

Your spaghetti logic is epic. More please.

LOL