[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

It’s common sense. Corvette buyers buy $60-100k cars. Most z06 will be $150k MSRP range. High interest rates are a game changer for the vast majority of people. Even if you can afford it, do you want to pay $10k a year in just interest?

Again, you have no data. I am sure plenty will be paying more than the min payment...

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Again, you have no data. I am sure plenty will be paying more than the min payment...

Data is funny those ways.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

It’s common sense. Corvette buyers buy $60-100k cars. Most z06 will be $150k MSRP range. High interest rates are a game changer for the vast majority of people. Even if you can afford it, do you want to pay $10k a year in just interest?

There are a lot of Corvette buyers that pay cash and can afford a lot more than 100k

There are a lot of Corvette buyers that have multiple cars and can afford a lot more than 100k

There are a lot of new buyers to Z06 with the new model that won't have purchased one before but find value in the new engine and layout, which is what GM is after anyways.

Yes, a group of people that stretch for 90k will drop out but will be replaced by a group of people that find relief in such an amazing car at a lower price than what they are used to paying.

The combination of these factors combined with relatively low production (supply vs demand) of the C8Z for the foreseable future is not going to crush pricing for quite a while, if ever.

Yes, interest rates are going up but the amount of people who were planning to finance 150k at 5% vs 10% (which is a very high rate estimate anyways) will not make a dent in the supply and demand equation on this car.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

There are a lot of Corvette buyers that pay cash and can afford a lot more than 100k

There are a lot of Corvette buyers that have multiple cars and can afford a lot more than 100k

There are a lot of new buyers to Z06 with the new model that won't have purchased one before but find value in the new engine and layout, which is what GM is after anyways.

Yes, a group of people that stretch for 90k will drop out but will be replaced by a group of people that find relief in such an amazing car at a lower price than what they are used to paying.

The combination of these factors combined with relatively low production (supply vs demand) of the C8Z for the foreseable future is not going to crush pricing for quite a while, if ever.

Yes, interest rates are going up but the amount of people who were planning to finance 150k at 5% vs 10% (which is a very high rate estimate anyways) will not make a dent in the supply and demand equation on this car.

Don't forget we don't know exactly how many on these lists are flippers. Interest rate matters zero to them.

[dgoldenz]

If you all think high interest rates don't change the equation for a lot of people you are being obtuse. Even if they can afford the payments or paying cash, it is also a larger lost opportunity cost of investing elsewhere. When interest rates are close to 0 and you can borrow for nearly free but also make no interest on your investments, people buy alternate assets like cars/watches/etc. When you can get 3-5% interest in a fixed asset with (virtually) no risk, you are both paying a very high interest rate and losing the interest that you'd otherwise have with that money.

Will limited production keep prices up initially? Yes.
Will a certain subset of buyers not care about interest rates at all? Yes.
Will many people drop out because of the higher than anticipated price plus high interest rates? Yes.
Will people be able to flip a $150k car and make a substantial profit after paying taxes and fees on the car? Maybe at first, but not for long. When the flipping opportunity dries up, so will demand.

Good for the people who get an early car at MSRP. For everyone else paying ADMs, say goodbye to your money.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

If you all think high interest rates don't change the equation for a lot of people you are being obtuse. Even if they can afford the payments or paying cash, it is also a larger lost opportunity cost of investing elsewhere. When interest rates are close to 0 and you can borrow for nearly free but also make no interest on your investments, people buy alternate assets like cars/watches/etc. When you can get 3-5% interest in a fixed asset with (virtually) no risk, you are both paying a very high interest rate and losing the interest that you'd otherwise have with that money.

Will limited production keep prices up initially? Yes.
Will a certain subset of buyers not care about interest rates at all? Yes.
Will many people drop out because of the higher than anticipated price plus high interest rates? Yes.
Will people be able to flip a $150k car and make a substantial profit after paying taxes and fees on the car? Maybe at first, but not for long. When the flipping opportunity dries up, so will demand.

Good for the people who get an early car at MSRP. For everyone else paying ADMs, say goodbye to your money.

No one said that rates don't change the equation for a lot of people, depending on what you define as "a lot."

What I said was rates wont make a dent in the supply and demand equation for this car. Could it make a difference if 10% comes and then hangs around for a couple years? Yes it will. Manufacturers are still offering +/- 3.99 today on new cars. They still want to sell cars.

You and I don't know what's going to happen in 6 months let alone 2 years so I don't really live in the future. I wouldn't bet on 10% being around 2 years from now.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

No one said that rates don't change the equation for a lot of people, depending on what you define as "a lot."

What I said was rates wont make a dent in the supply and demand equation for this car. Could it make a difference if 10% comes and then hangs around for a couple years? Yes it will. Manufacturers are still offering +/- 3.99 today on new cars. They still want to sell cars.

You and I don't know what's going to happen in 6 months let alone 2 years so I don't really live in the future. I wouldn't bet on 10% being around 2 years from now.

If rates were 10% two years from now we will have al ot of economic issues. On plus side even high end cars might climb ack to 100k in that scenario.

Manufacturers will likely offer some premium financing in the next 2 years to keep the gravy train going. And rates will start to drop again sometime in 2023. With 2024 being when they normalize probably somewhere around 5%.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

None of that matters if GM continues to refuse to let us buy the car. Let's see how late into 2024 they start giving out allocations.

At some point, if they keep this up, most of us will take our deposits back & buy something else. By the time the Z is out, the latest & greatest new thing will be out. Also, there will be no one wanting to pay ADM or flipper prices either soon enough.

These things are not even taking into account the market corrections coming...

That is an issue. Every generation gets passed by. C8 was initially developed along with the C7 and the C8 has been out for 3, almost 4 years now. The next 911 is rumored to have KERS, other cars are also advancing. If you really want a Z06, you’re almost better off buying a well cared for C7 version. At least you know the engine doesn’t have issues.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

As I said before, it will be interesting to see who is still lining up to pay ADM's or even MSRP when interest rates are 8%...When you're taking out a $100k+ loan that interest adds up real quick. Most Corvette buyers don't just have $150k in cash laying around.

You normally can’t roll in the markup into a loan so if it’s $100k markup, you’re taking out a lot of buyers except for the rennlist crowd who always claim to pay in cash lol. Banks will allow some overage to account for taxes, tags etc, but if you roll in markup or a lot of add ons (PPF, ceramic, wheel and tire warranty, service plans etc), the bank will want you to pony up a much larger down payment.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

It’s common sense. Corvette buyers buy $60-100k cars. Most z06 will be $150k MSRP range. High interest rates are a game changer for the vast majority of people. Even if you can afford it, do you want to pay $10k a year in just interest?

I am expecting to move up quickly on the list once we get past all the YouTubers, and 1%ers. Regular people will probably back out unfortunately since Corvette is supposed to be the blue collar super car.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

If you all think high interest rates don't change the equation for a lot of people you are being obtuse. Even if they can afford the payments or paying cash, it is also a larger lost opportunity cost of investing elsewhere. When interest rates are close to 0 and you can borrow for nearly free but also make no interest on your investments, people buy alternate assets like cars/watches/etc. When you can get 3-5% interest in a fixed asset with (virtually) no risk, you are both paying a very high interest rate and losing the interest that you'd otherwise have with that money.

Will limited production keep prices up initially? Yes.
Will a certain subset of buyers not care about interest rates at all? Yes.
Will many people drop out because of the higher than anticipated price plus high interest rates? Yes.
Will people be able to flip a $150k car and make a substantial profit after paying taxes and fees on the car? Maybe at first, but not for long. When the flipping opportunity dries up, so will demand.

Good for the people who get an early car at MSRP. For everyone else paying ADMs, say goodbye to your money.

High interest rates are starting to kill the real estate market…..it’s real.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by c1pher

That is an issue. Every generation gets passed by. C8 was initially developed along with the C7 and the C8 has been out for 3, almost 4 years now. The next 911 is rumored to have KERS, other cars are also advancing. If you really want a Z06, you’re almost better off buying a well cared for C7 version. At least you know the engine doesn’t have issues.

It only makes sense to get a C7 once the C8 craze settles down (it won't actually) because that "might" drive some C7 values down.

I checked the value on my C7Z and it's just as high as it was when i checked earlier this this past summer when i debated on selling. I decided i'll keep it one more winter and just trade or sell when it's time to pick up my stingray in spring. Then just in case my z06 gets delayed, at least i have a stingray to hold me off. And if i can get the z06 at the scheduled time line, then i'll just have 2 C8's and sell the stingray after about a year or 2 and get all my money back.

The market for these cars isn't dying anytime soon. Like someone said, MAYBE in 2024 when the economy stabilizes but 2023 will just be like this year, no different.

Also you're not getting a C8Z for the most advanced street car you can buy. It's an NA car for crying out loud lol. Car doesn't have start/stop and it doesn't have cylinder deactivation. It's rudimentary yet a modern day exotic at the same time.

You're getting the car because it will be the last of it's kind. There is no NA V8 in the C9 generation. I won't even be surprised if they either eliminate all V8's in the C9 generation or just go straight electric, depending on how long the C8 generation lasts. I suspect 2029 is the last model year for a C8 and 2030 is the start of a hybrid 4/6, or EV which would make the most sense.

You're getting the C8Z for the engine. If you have warranty, i wouldn't worry about the longevity/durability of the engine. Or you can just sell it before warranty runs out.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

It only makes sense to get a C7 once the C8 craze settles down (it won't actually) because that "might" drive some C7 values down.

I checked the value on my C7Z and it's just as high as it was when i checked earlier this this past summer when i debated on selling. I decided i'll keep it one more winter and just trade or sell when it's time to pick up my stingray in spring. Then just in case my z06 gets delayed, at least i have a stingray to hold me off. And if i can get the z06 at the scheduled time line, then i'll just have 2 C8's and sell the stingray after about a year or 2 and get all my money back.

The market for these cars isn't dying anytime soon. Like someone said, MAYBE in 2024 when the economy stabilizes but 2023 will just be like this year, no different.

Also you're not getting a C8Z for the most advanced street car you can buy. It's an NA car for crying out loud lol. Car doesn't have start/stop and it doesn't have cylinder deactivation. It's rudimentary yet a modern day exotic at the same time.

You're getting the car because it will be the last of it's kind. There is no NA V8 in the C9 generation. I won't even be surprised if they either eliminate all V8's in the C9 generation or just go straight electric, depending on how long the C8 generation lasts. I suspect 2029 is the last model year for a C8 and 2030 is the start of a hybrid 4/6, or EV which would make the most sense.

You're getting the C8Z for the engine. If you have warranty, i wouldn't worry about the longevity/durability of the engine. Or you can just sell it before warranty runs out.

This is exactly why I bought my 718 GTS 4.0. Going to a battery powered platform is all but confirmed after that.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by c1pher

This is exactly why I bought my 718 GTS 4.0. Going to a battery powered platform is all but confirmed after that.

As much as i love porsche, because i did think about a used turbo s instead of getting a C8Z all together, i need/want a V8 in my life. I don't think i'm ready to fully eliminate some sort of V8 variant from my collection. That's why i, like many here, like to have multiple cars. There isn't that ONE perfect car that i can just have as a solo car in my fleet that i can enjoy all year round, doing all life duties.

I rather have multiple of different kinds lol.

Maybe someday, if i get a raise, i can add a 5th car and it could be a used porsche (although probably not a turbo s).

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

There isn't that ONE perfect car that i can just have as a solo car in my fleet that i can enjoy all year round, doing all life duties.

Hellcat Charger enters the discussion. So does Trackhawk or even Durango Hellcat ($100k for the Durango is lol hard no, though)

I agree on having more than one car, though.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Hellcat Charger enters the discussion. So does Trackhawk or even Durango Hellcat ($100k for the Durango is lol hard no, though)

I agree on having more than one car, though.

Almost no one who buys a performance SUV really needs a 3rd row so the durango isn't a good buy when there's a trackhawk.

The trackhawk these days warrant the price. The engine and the AWD. The looks of the SUV is ancient by todays' standards so it's hard to even justify that price when buying a performance SUV or a performance "all around" car for that matter.

If it wasn't for theft, i wouldn't be on this forum and i would have a widebody hellcat charger. But again you're stuck with an ancient interior and outdated looks. You're literally getting that car for the engine. The rest of the car isn't as special IMO.

Either way these hellcats and trackhawks are notorious for getting stolen. People would really follow you on the way home from you buying it from the dealer to plot a way to steal that car from you that night. They do not play around me. It's a shame because i think those cars are still cool because of that V8.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Almost no one who buys a performance SUV really needs a 3rd row so the durango isn't a good buy when there's a trackhawk.

The trackhawk these days warrant the price. The engine and the AWD. The looks of the SUV is ancient by todays' standards so it's hard to even justify that price when buying a performance SUV or a performance "all around" car for that matter.

If it wasn't for theft, i wouldn't be on this forum and i would have a widebody hellcat charger. But again you're stuck with an ancient interior and outdated looks. You're literally getting that car for the engine. The rest of the car isn't as special IMO.

Either way these hellcats and trackhawks are notorious for getting stolen. People would really follow you on the way home from you buying it from the dealer to plot a way to steal that car from you that night. They do not play around me. It's a shame because i think those cars are still cool because of that V8.

Looks are subjective so let's leave that part out. You said car that can do it all all year. Both of those can. I daily my Hellcat Charger all year. It's my only car right now.

Not stolen so far. That's what insurance is for.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Almost no one who buys a performance SUV really needs a 3rd row so the durango isn't a good buy when there's a trackhawk.

The trackhawk these days warrant the price. The engine and the AWD. The looks of the SUV is ancient by todays' standards so it's hard to even justify that price when buying a performance SUV or a performance "all around" car for that matter.

If it wasn't for theft, i wouldn't be on this forum and i would have a widebody hellcat charger. But again you're stuck with an ancient interior and outdated looks. You're literally getting that car for the engine. The rest of the car isn't as special IMO.

Either way these hellcats and trackhawks are notorious for getting stolen. People would really follow you on the way home from you buying it from the dealer to plot a way to steal that car from you that night. They do not play around me. It's a shame because i think those cars are still cool because of that V8.

Spacious and powerful and fun to drive - frankly the current X5M hit it out of the park. Such a fun car to drive.

ONly put about 500 miles on one but it really hits all the buckets if you are going big.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Hellcat Charger enters the discussion. So does Trackhawk or even Durango Hellcat ($100k for the Durango is lol hard no, though)

I agree on having more than one car, though.

Let me introduce you all to the 392 wrangler as well.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Mike00

Spacious and powerful and fun to drive - frankly the current X5M hit it out of the park. Such a fun car to drive.

ONly put about 500 miles on one but it really hits all the buckets if you are going big.

That's what i'm talking about. The X5M. Now THAT i can definitely see as an all around, powerful SUV. And i said it in the past if i were to give up my EV daily, it would be something like an X5M. Because V8 AWD SUV.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Looks are subjective so let's leave that part out. You said car that can do it all all year. Both of those can. I daily my Hellcat Charger all year. It's my only car right now.

Not stolen so far. That's what insurance is for.

You just love to initiate arguments. Read what i wrote.

I said there isn't ONE perfect car that "I" can have. Meaning for me. I don't give a shit about anyone else here. That's why i mentioned theft. Because those cars are big in theft in my area.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

As much as i love porsche, because i did think about a used turbo s instead of getting a C8Z all together, i need/want a V8 in my life. I don't think i'm ready to fully eliminate some sort of V8 variant from my collection. That's why i, like many here, like to have multiple cars. There isn't that ONE perfect car that i can just have as a solo car in my fleet that i can enjoy all year round, doing all life duties.

I rather have multiple of different kinds lol.

Maybe someday, if i get a raise, i can add a 5th car and it could be a used porsche (although probably not a turbo s).

While I like V8s, I’ve never felt as you have. If I like how it sounds and performs, that’s what makes me happy. A flat six definitely has a sound of its own as does a BMW inline 6, a V10, V12 etc. But I can understand why someone might prefer one platform over another.