[Echo M3]

Finally, did anyone watch the race of BBC? It was hilarious when DC and Eddie Irvine got thrown into the kiddie pool by Vettel and Horner!!

It also appears there will be a Top Gear episode based on the Monaco Grand Prix.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by pman10

I'm all for aggressive overtaking, but this isn't NASCAR or touring car racing. You can't just ram your opponents off the road and then go on your merry way.

He was driving like a madman yesterday, but the worst part is he didn't admit it. He (reportedly) apologized for his comments, but not his actions.

[EINSER M]

Originally Posted by pman10

Finally, did anyone watch the race of BBC? It was hilarious when DC and Eddie Irvine got thrown into the kiddie pool by Vettel and Horner!!

It also appears there will be a Top Gear episode based on the Monaco Grand Prix.

horner seemed cool and composed, bernie looked concerned and briatore, LOL

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by pman10

In Monaco, on the other hand, Lewis wasn't even side by side with Maldonado.

The rules are 1/2 Car length and you HAVE to yield a line to the overtaking driver, you cannot turn into him and drive him off the track, equally so on the outside you cannot drive him off track and must leave a car width for him.

Hamilton was 3/4 of a car on him @ turn in.

While it was aggressive, he did not deserve the penalty.

Crash with masa was probably his fault, he wasn't quite alongside, but masa still should have yielded him a width and gone wide then kept him squeezed out on the outside.

If a car can get next to you that's your problem, not the car who got next to yous problem, either you defend from someone getting alongside, or you yield them the minimum room possible, you do NOT crash into them.


In both cases Hamilton was in the minimum possible area he could occupy. The only question falls to if he was in fact 1/2 a length beside, or if he had no possibility to make the corner at the speeds he entered. If he was less or couldn't he's at fault, otherwise he's not.

[BrokenVert]

Man too bad for that wreak at the swimming pool chicane.

I wanted to see if Vettel was going to be able to hold position against Alonso and Button.

I was half expecting Button to pull out a win on the super softs.

Great drive by all three drivers tho. Same with the Webber Kobayashi and Hamilton in the 4 5 6 battle.

I love watching Kobayashi drive.

[KANdaddy]

Great race again. For those who said that SV got lucky...please. He drove a better race once again. Better car, better strategy, better driver. YES the changing of tires during the red flag was COMPLETE BS. But SV would have won anyway. Anyone who says differently is either a fortune teller or can't look at the situation objectively. He'd been doing very, very long stints on those tires all weekend. He obviously knew how to get the most of them. With a handful of laps left, there were no signs the tires were going to go off dramatically. If they had, it's not like SV would have suddenly been easy to pass, IMO. It's looking more and more like SV is simply just in a class of his own this year. His pole winning time was proof of that.

Now to LH. I'm sorry....I have been really, really trying hard to like this guy all year. Making racial comments whether in "jest" or not is just not acceptable. Pulling the race card in never acceptable. While I still believe LH to be a great driver, I have lost all respect for him as a person (not that he cares what I think ). The LH fans out there can say all you want about how he apologized and made peace, etc. But if it had been SV or someone else that made comments like that, you'd all be crucifying the person without remorse. LH needs to grow up. From a personality standpoint, he's far from a professional.

Overall...great race again for this season. To turn a normally pretty boring race into such an exciting event with so much going on throughout the field was great.

In closing thank goodness Perez is OK and that Rosberg also missed hitting that barrier.....that would have been even more disastrous and he was heading head first into it. Hopefully they will figure out a way to increase the safety of that area.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

.... But SV would have won anyway. Anyone who says differently is either a fortune teller or can't look at the situation objectively. .....

& who's not being objective now?
It's a fact that those tires drop off like a falling off a cliff, it's just a question of when.

Might Seb have lasted ...maybe, but he could just as easily have been caught.
Look what happened in China.

[raisemyrent]

that will make such a sweet top gear episode. I can't wait.

Seriously, Hamilton needs an attitude check. Whatever happened to the PR groomed obnoxious, cocky boy that winked to the camera a lot? Now it's always someone else's fault. And no, raising your hand right after it while you drive away does NOT clean you of any guilt. Nor does saying over the radio that the guy hit you on purpose. That clip of him running into Massa looks like a NASCAR special. And the racism card? I'm not even going there.

I agree with the 1/2 car length, but there are times when you dive in and it is too late for the other guy to react. He either (if he sees you) runs himself into the wall (maybe locking the brakes), or turns in like his brain already told his hands to do. Hamilton should know that. Barrichello probably got 1/2 a car length on Rosberg at Australia at some point as well, but Rosberg was going to take him out no matter what (watch it, you'll see what I mean). I think Hamilton just thought: if Schumacher can do it, so can I (Answer: no.).

How about Schumacher by the way? I am the most biased, but he had a bad start (which might have been his fault, I admit), a bad stint of tyres, a slow pit stop to replace a wing, and he STILL came out and passed Nico on the track (which wasn't shown on the BBC). He came back from something like 10 seconds behind him or so. Rosberg was stuck behind a Lotus and a Toro Rosso for most of the race, for crying out loud. Oh, and he outqualified him. AND he passed wonderboys Hamilton and Rosberg on the hairpin (which MB had NEVER seen, apparently). Not bad for a 42 year old that "hasn't got it anymore". I hope he does something like that (and finishes the race) in 2 weeks when I see them with me own eyes.

I'd like to say something romantic about how Button/Alonso deserved to win, and the tyres etc, and how he has won everything this year, but the reality is: track position is everything, and Vettel was quick and held them off. 'nuff said.

[E90SLAM]

WOW....based on the youtube clips...LH putting himself into DNF position trying too hard to overtake. Putting himself into someone and "hoping" they will yield.
I'd just say poor overtake attempt (reminds me again Monza last year where he collided with the ferrari)

[KANdaddy]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Might Seb have lasted ...maybe, but he could just as easily have been caught.
Look what happened in China.

Yes. Look what happened indeed and yet the RB7 was still fast enough to keep the amazing LH at bay. Which is an easier track to pass on than Monaco. It was said that SV did several very long practice stints in Monaco on the soft tires and was still turning very competitive times (which probably played into RBR's decision to go into the race with the one stop strategy). I agree with you, he could have been caught but his performance on "worn" tires over the weekend put things in his favor. Even if caught, he would have been very hard to pass with just 6 laps to go. Just my opinion.

[arggg45]

Originally Posted by O-cha

The rules are 1/2 Car length and you HAVE to yield a line to the overtaking driver, you cannot turn into him and drive him off the track, equally so on the outside you cannot drive him off track and must leave a car width for him.

Hamilton was 3/4 of a car on him @ turn in.

While it was aggressive, he did not deserve the penalty.

Crash with masa was probably his fault, he wasn't quite alongside, but masa still should have yielded him a width and gone wide then kept him squeezed out on the outside.

If a car can get next to you that's your problem, not the car who got next to yous problem, either you defend from someone getting alongside, or you yield them the minimum room possible, you do NOT crash into them.


In both cases Hamilton was in the minimum possible area he could occupy. The only question falls to if he was in fact 1/2 a length beside, or if he had no possibility to make the corner at the speeds he entered. If he was less or couldn't he's at fault, otherwise he's not.

Sorry, but I have to correct you. Go read section 20 and then section 16 of the Sporting Regulations (Rules that govern the actual races (not cars) that comprise the F1 calendar). You will see that there is no such rule as you mentioned about 1/2 a car length. This rule you mention is fairly standard in NASA and SCCA racing, but most assuredly not in F1. The Stewards have complete discretion as to whether or not a pass was appropriate or overly aggressive as well as exclusive ability to impose penalties for on-track behavior.

Now I can agree with you some. if you watch both incidents, Hamilton is carrying too much speed for the line he is trying to take.

Your analysis of the Massa incident is pretty straight-on, Hamilton= at fault, 100%

No one is ever really going to agree about the Maldonado incident. I feel that Hamilton deliberately hit him out of frustration and was completely at fault. Others feel differently. It happens.

EDIT: I used to like Hamilton, and thought he was a fairly clean racer...he definitely changed my opinion after yesterdays' race.

[CDM3DCT]

Correct me if Im wrong but didn't he have the same incident happen with massa last year at monza? LH thinks he is a racing god and can do whatever he wants on the track. Bottom line, he drove wreckless and the two penalties were justified. Last week he blamed MS for blocking him in favor of Vettel only because hes a fellow german. Yesterday he took it upon himself to plow cars out of the way if he believed they were slow.

PS- believe me i dont hate LH, although it is funny to see a champ make an ass of himself each week. Ive sat back with my popcorn inhand and plan to have more ready for Canada.

[mevans]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

& who's not being objective now?
It's a fact that those tires drop off like a falling off a cliff, it's just a question of when.

Might Seb have lasted ...maybe, but he could just as easily have been caught.
Look what happened in China.

They looked at his tires in the paddock, and said they looked good. It's on the BBC feed if you torrented it.

Originally Posted by arggg45

Sorry, but I have to correct you. Go read section 20 and then section 16 of the Sporting Regulations (Rules that govern the actual races (not cars) that comprise the F1 calendar). You will see that there is no such rule as you mentioned about 1/2 a car length. This rule you mention is fairly standard in NASA and SCCA racing, but most assuredly not in F1. The Stewards have complete discretion as to whether or not a pass was appropriate or overly aggressive as well as exclusive ability to impose penalties for on-track behavior.

Now I can agree with you some. if you watch both incidents, Hamilton is carrying too much speed for the line he is trying to take.

Your analysis of the Massa incident is pretty straight-on, Hamilton= at fault, 100%

No one is ever really going to agree about the Maldonado incident. I feel that Hamilton deliberately hit him out of frustration and was completely at fault. Others feel differently. It happens.

EDIT: I used to like Hamilton, and thought he was a fairly clean racer...he definitely changed my opinion after yesterdays' race.

I agree with you 100%.

Hamilton passed Schumi when he caught Schumi sleeping [Schumi almost tracked-out into him because he didn't even know he was getting passed], and Hamilton assumed it would work again in the same spot.

Hubris would be the word we're all looking for.

[mevans]

Anyone going up to Montreal? I'll be in grandstand 24 again which was uhhh-mazing last year.

Topically, Hamilton won from pole last year.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

Great race again. For those who said that SV got lucky...please. He drove a better race once again. Better car, better strategy, better driver.

I'm sorry, but you can't really say this. Horner himself said they lucked into that strategy because they put the wrong tires onto Vettel's car. Vettel's 1 and only pit was for Super-softs on a 2 stop strategy. They then got into the hole because Button was driving a phenominal race. So, Vettel was left to do what he could with that set of tires while he kept track position. He had 7 laps left at the very end of the life of them, with both Alonso and Button right on him. And the tire 'drop off' was suppose to happen within the next lap or 2 which would have left him 2-3 seconds in the void per lap afterwards. Plenty of time for the DRS zone to result in an overtake at turn 1.

No way I would believe the safety car, and subsequent free tire swap was organized. And to say so is pretty far fetched. It would also allude that Reb Bull is conducting some serious under the table deals.


Even if Red Bull knew the tire drop off wouldn't ever hit them on that distance, they still botched their original strategy. Watching the pit stop alone would tell you this as they weren't even ready.

[E90SLAM]

.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

But if it had been SV or someone else that made comments like that, you'd all be crucifying the person without remorse.

I don't necessarily agree with that. F1 Fandom isn't a competition or retaliatory.

On your comments regarding Hamilton, I can only imagine that he felt the world was against him. In such a high profile position, I'm sure everything is exacerbated. If nothing else, the fact that he knew he could have taken the fight to Vettel and then not be allowed to even contest it must in itself be hugely frustrating.

Now, Vettel is a few races away from locking in the WDC and probably the WCC with it. At only half way through the season. This naturally is immensely discouraging in a sport where you are there for only one thing, according to Ayrton.

I don't condone his post race interview, obviously he has shortcomings. But there is still no other racer I enjoy watching more.

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

In closing thank goodness Perez is OK and that Rosberg also missed hitting that barrier.....that would have been even more disastrous and he was heading head first into it. Hopefully they will figure out a way to increase the safety of that area.

I do agree with these sentiments 100% though.

[KANdaddy]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

I don't necessarily agree with that. F1 Fandom isn't a competition or retaliatory.

Not true. Anyone remember that dude Ramos that used to post here?

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

No way I would believe the safety car, and subsequent free tire swap was organized. And to say so is pretty far fetched. It would also allude that Reb Bull is conducting some serious under the table deals.


Even if Red Bull knew the tire drop off wouldn't ever hit them on that distance, they still botched their original strategy. Watching the pit stop alone would tell you this as they weren't even ready.

I wasn't saying at all the they planned the safety car...c'mon. But I do agree to your comments partially. RBR did botch the pits stop and so your assessment is valid and I overlooked that. Still, I believe SV would have been able to hold off FA and JB had the "drop off" occurred. Any of the top drivers in that position would have been able to. Monaco is just too tough to pass. Look at all the other parts of this very race where slower drivers were holding back faster ones for lap after lap.

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

On your comments regarding Hamilton, I can only imagine that he felt the world was against him. In such a high profile position, I'm sure everything is exacerbated. If nothing else, the fact that he knew he could have taken the fight to Vettel and then not be allowed to even contest it must in itself be hugely frustrating.

Yep...no doubt he is frustrated....that is obvious. And no doubt he is a brilliant driver. Just too bad he had to sink to such a low with those comments. There really is no excuse for that regardless of circumstances. It's too bad. When a person is really emotionally compromised as he was, studies show that more often than not a person's true feelings come out. That being said, it paints a sad picture of LH. Great driver though. Let's hope he gathers himself before he has a complete meltdown.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by arggg45

Sorry, but I have to correct you. Go read section 20 and then section 16 of the Sporting Regulations (Rules that govern the actual races (not cars) that comprise the F1 calendar). You will see that there is no such rule as you mentioned about 1/2 a car length. This rule you mention is fairly standard in NASA and SCCA racing, but most assuredly not in F1. The Stewards have complete discretion as to whether or not a pass was appropriate or overly aggressive as well as exclusive ability to impose penalties for on-track behavior.

Now I can agree with you some. if you watch both incidents, Hamilton is carrying too much speed for the line he is trying to take.

Your analysis of the Massa incident is pretty straight-on, Hamilton= at fault, 100%

No one is ever really going to agree about the Maldonado incident. I feel that Hamilton deliberately hit him out of frustration and was completely at fault. Others feel differently. It happens.

EDIT: I used to like Hamilton, and thought he was a fairly clean racer...he definitely changed my opinion after yesterdays' race.

Well then the 1/2 length rule should be a rule then, I'm fairly sure it used to be though, I know I've hear the announcers talk about it over the last few years. Even if it's not a rule, it's a sporting thing to do. However, f1 is nothing but cutthroat rather then sporting.

He definitely was not carrying too much speed either time, Both times he was going the same speed as the car he was overtaking into the corner (having braked down to that speed after pulling along side), the only difference was he was only 1/4 on masa and 1/2+ on maladano. If they had just given him JUST enough room, they both would have come out faster and been able to hold him till next corner. Especially masa who would have had the inside on remaining corners and could have pushed Hamilton out into the rubble instead of vise versa.

Squeeze him in, bump wheels, track out, take off.

[raisemyrent]

Originally Posted by mevans

Anyone going up to Montreal? I'll be in grandstand 24 again which was uhhh-mazing last year.

Topically, Hamilton won from pole last year.

yeah, I'll be in 12 for the first time. did GA just off 24 in 2006 (saw Schum in Ferrari), and 15 last year (saw Schum be lapped ).

[E90SLAM]

.

[F1Flagger]

Originally Posted by mevans

Anyone going up to Montreal? I'll be in grandstand 24 again which was uhhh-mazing last year.

Topically, Hamilton won from pole last year.

I will be there, on Track in "Whites". No idea yet what stations I will be working.