What's the ZR1 chasing?

footie · 08-12-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

Maybe it was just that particular driver. Clearly the same traction handicap experienced by the ZR1 wasn't as much of a factor on the GT2 in AutoCar's test. Why the difference? Driver is my guess. We can leave it at that.

I can't make it more plain than it already is, the GT2 gets better traction when conditions are poor and this is for many reasons but the main two is the extra weight over the rear axle and it does offer a brilliant TC system if used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

First off, the last time I looked our best sports cars (Viper ACR, ZR1) are trouncing the Euro super cars pretty badly, and at less than half the price. You throw the Aero SSC in the mix, and we're dominating you guys. Need I even bring up the results from the FIA GT Round 4 Francorchamps where the Z06 made Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, and Aston Martin cry? No offense.

Well now we are getting to your really problem, you are anti-Rest of the World and all products that aren't American. Or have I got you all wrong.

Sure these cars you mentioned are all great but only the ZR1 stands off as truly great in my opinion, the Viper is a race car with number plates, that may well appeal to a number of people but that number would be very few and the majority would neither consider it nor recognise it's 7:22 lap as the record of a true street production car. Now the Vette is a different matter, it's a true street car and quite decently built I believe, though given the choice I would prefer any of the European metal at it's £100k it sells at here.

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guibo

ZR1 doesn't trounce the Enzo, Zonda Clubsport, or MC12.

But the Aero SSC does.

Quote:

No, you're wrong. To the market that matters (in this case Europe and Germany, within which the Nordschleife is located), the F Clubsport is road legal. Its time on the 'Ring is 100% legit.

It's not legal here, so I don't really care. Anyway that was a tangent you created at 6Speed which is why most of the posters there think you're a troll. People listen to you here because this website is 99% BMW fanboys, but then again, you're with your kin. All your points are usually wrong, and tangents. Not my opinion, but at least half a dozen people at 6Speed who post there and simply ignore you.

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footie

Well now we are getting to your really problem, you are anti-Rest of the World and all products that aren't American.

Most people at 6SpeedOnline who know me would laugh at that statement considering my stable of cars I own.

I simply recognize that U.S Sports Cars are dominating their Euro equivalents at this time and for much, much, cheaper.

footie · 08-12-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

Most people at 6SpeedOnline who know me would laugh at that statement considering my stable of cars I own.

I simply recognize that U.S Sports Cars are dominating their Euro equivalents at this time and for much, much, cheaper.

Well I can only consider the ZR1 as true rival to European sportscars and it's a bloody good one. Though it's only cheap in the US where it's made because in the UK it's an expensive car, even for the performance on offer and this is down to the amount of import tax, which is true for European brands in the US. Now if you view the ZR1 at UK prices then it's build quality doesn't cut the mustard in comparison the the likes of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Audi.

Another thing about US sportscar when compared to European is the finesse in their handling, they are all about the numbers, sure they go hard, corner hard and brake hard but there is none of the balance you experience with a Lotus, Porsche, Ferrari or any of the other top brands that have been mentioned.

I'm not saying the GM cut corners but their values and goals are a bit difference to European brands.

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footie

Now if you view the ZR1 at UK prices then it's build quality doesn't cut the mustard in comparison the the likes of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Audi.

I have to firmly disagree since I own 2 of the marques you just mentioned. We can discuss this over PM if you want, I don't like discussing much here on E90 for obvious reasons. But I just have to say after spending time in the above mentioned marques, I firmly believe that the "build" quality of these Euro brands is a myth perpetuated by marketing.

Quote:

Another thing about US sportscar when compared to European is the finesse in their handling, they are all about the numbers, sure they go hard, corner hard and brake hard or there is none of the balance you experience with a Lotus, Porsche, Ferrari or any of the other top brands that have been mentioned.

That's just opinion. Tiff Needell compared the Z06 to the F430, and GT2 and still thought the Z06 was better than both in feel.

MisterSkiMask · 08-12-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guibo

ZR1 doesn't trounce the Enzo, Zonda Clubsport, or MC12. I wouldn't consider a 2-second gap to the CGT a trouncing by any means. If you look at the build quality and production volumes, the ACR and ZR1 have to be priced less than half; otherwise, who'd buy them?

So, you think that a manufacturer builds a car and determines the price? The price of the ZR-1 is the price that they built it to. GM didn't set out to build a $300,000 car and then cut the price to try to move them.

Guibo · 08-12-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

But the Aero SSC does.

What is the SSC's NRing time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

It's not legal here, so I don't really care.

You don't care...yet YOU brought it up and made a BS statement about its road legality. Now who's trollin'?

I simply recognize that U.S Sports Cars are dominating their Euro equivalents at this time and for much, much, cheaper.
What do you mean "at this time"? If performance is all you're looking for (and that's all you're getting in a car like the ACR), then US cars have been historically better at providing bang for the buck. Look at what the old ZR1 did to the Porsche Turbo decades ago.
Simple reason being that marques like Porsche, Audi, BMW, Ferrari/Maserati, etc generally don't give a rat's ass about performance/cost as much as GM/Dodge. Like I said, if a ZR1 were priced like an Enzo or Pagani, who the hell would buy it? It's priced cheaply because it has to be. You don't think GM/Dodge would be pricing Corvettes/Vipers like Ferraris and Zondas if they could? Of course they would.
Right, and let's not forget that things made in Europe tend to be more expensive anyway. Currently, the Euro is trading at 1.4USD.

MisterSkiMask · 08-12-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footie

Another thing about US sportscar when compared to European is the finesse in their handling, they are all about the numbers, sure they go hard, corner hard and brake hard but there is none of the balance you experience with a Lotus, Porsche, Ferrari or any of the other top brands that have been mentioned.

Times are changing, the Corvette (I can't believe I am championing the Corvette) is the one of a very small hand full of cars that is getting lighter and smaller as it is redesigned. I think others will have to follow this trend. Porsche was able to shed a little weight off the 997.2 Turbo and GT3, but the 911 is getting bigger and bigger. Look at the weight of modern Ferraris, its pathetic they are having to spoon on huge rubber to get the numbers that they need and there is no way that they have the light nimble feel that they should or could have if they were as light as the ZR-1.

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guibo

What is the SSC's NRing time?

You don't care...yet YOU brought it up and made a BS statement about its road legality. Now who's trollin'?

I simply recognize that U.S Sports Cars are dominating their Euro equivalents at this time and for much, much, cheaper.
What do you mean "at this time"? If performance is all you're looking for (and that's all you're getting in a car like the ACR), then US cars have been historically better at providing bang for the buck. Look at what the old ZR1 did to the Porsche Turbo decades ago.
Simple reason being that marques like Porsche, Audi, BMW, Ferrari/Maserati, etc generally don't give a rat's ass about performance/cost as much as GM/Dodge. Like I said, if a ZR1 were priced like an Enzo or Pagani, who the hell would buy it? It's priced cheaply because it has to be. You don't think GM/Dodge would be pricing Corvettes/Vipers like Ferraris and Zondas if they could? Of course they would.
Right, and let's not forget that things made in Europe tend to be more expensive anyway. Currently, the Euro is trading at 1.4USD.

Yup, time to ignore you like most of the people at 6Speed have. You're a troll through and through. have a good day!

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:47 PM

I laugh at the whole "European Finesse" statement.

The brand snobbery on these forums is ridiculous.

Now it's not about performance, but about how much leather you can slather on the seats. That's a real motorsport enthusiast.

MisterSkiMask · 08-12-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guibo

Simple reason being that marques like Porsche, Audi, BMW, Ferrari/Maserati, etc generally don't give a rat's ass about performance/cost as much as GM/Dodge. Like I said, if a ZR1 were priced like an Enzo or Pagani, who the hell would buy it? It's priced cheaply because it has to be. You don't think GM/Dodge would be pricing Corvettes/Vipers like Ferraris and Zondas if they could? Of course they would.

Clearly Porsche doesn't care about cost and they would never share components between their entry level model and their premium model...oh wait they did...they even shared body panels.

BMW and Audi don't care either!?!

Every production car is built to a price/cost (Veyron being a possible exception). If you believe differently you are insane.

Guibo · 08-12-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

So, you think that a manufacturer builds a car and determines the price? The price of the ZR-1 is the price that they built it to. GM didn't set out to build a $300,000 car and then cut the price to try to move them.

Nope, I never said that. I never said GM set out to build a $300k car, and the overall quality and volume of the car reflects that. What I'm saying is: CHEVROLET is not a premium sports car manufacturer like Ferrari/Porsche/Pagani/etc. They have in their mind of what a $100K Corvette should be capable of. Porsche has in its mind what a $100K Porsche should be capable of, and it's about a lot more than just outright performance. This is what, historically, separate a premium brand from others.

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Clearly Porsche doesn't care about cost and they would never share components between their entry level model and their premium model...oh wait they did...they even shared body panels.

BMW and Audi don't care either!?!

Every production car is built to a price/cost (Veyron being a possible exception). If you believe differently you are insane.

Honestly, Guibo's arguments never make much sense. We've learned to ignore him at 6Speed, I think you guys at E90 should too.

Guibo · 08-12-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Clearly Porsche doesn't care about cost and they would never share components between their entry level model and their premium model...oh wait they did...they even shared body panels.

BMW and Audi don't care either!?!

Every production car is built to a price/cost (Veyron being a possible exception). If you believe differently you are insane.

If you believe Porsche/BMW/Audi/Veryon care as much to the extent that GM/Dodge do, then you're retarded. You are assuming something has been said, when it hasn't. Nor was it ever meant. The entry level Porsche is still much higher in quality and more bespoke than the entry level GM (which is built in Korea, no?). And it's priced to match. Meanwhile, the $100K ZR1 still has flimsy seats and a steering wheel out of a Malibu.

datbimmerdoe · 08-12-2009, 05:22 PM

SO... What is it chasing?

Guibo · 08-12-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

People listen to you here because this website is 99% BMW fanboys, but then again, you're with your kin.

Ok, now who's trolling?

Still can't come up with the SCC Aero's 'Ring time?

Tiff Needell compared the Z06 to the F430, and GT2 and still thought the Z06 was better than both in feel.
Where did he say that?

Here's an American test, saying quite the opposite:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests
The Z06 trailed the F430 and Turbo in steering feel, brake feel, and handling.

I don't think you want to know what the Germans and Italians thought.

MisterSkiMask · 08-12-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the infamous...

SO... What is it chasing?

NewSong · 08-12-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the infamous...

SO... What is it chasing?

A 2005 Ford Focus.

MisterSkiMask · 08-12-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guibo

If you believe Porsche/BMW/Audi/****** care as much to the extent that GM/Dodge do, then you're retarded. You are assuming something has been said, when it hasn't. Nor was it ever meant. The entry level Porsche is still much higher in quality and more bespoke than the entry level GM (which is built in Korea, no?). And it's priced to match. Meanwhile, the $100K ZR1 still has flimsy seats and a steering wheel out of a Malibu.

They all care about their profits.

footie · 08-12-2009, 05:54 PM

This has turned from a proper debate to a mud throwing match.

I'm done. When the debate returns to the subject matter then so will I.

Guibo · 08-12-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

They all care about their profits.

Great. Now where did I say that they don't care about profits? I said other companies can (and do) care about things other than performance only.

datbimmerdoe · 08-12-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

:finger:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewSong

A 2005 Ford Focus.

Lick my balls.

08-12-2009, 04:47 PM	#120
NewSong Just another jerk in a hat... 124 Rep 1,462 Posts Drives: 2005 Ford Focus Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Irvine iTrader: (0)	I laugh at the whole "European Finesse" statement. The brand snobbery on these forums is ridiculous. Now it's not about performance, but about how much leather you can slather on the seats. That's a real motorsport enthusiast. __________________ He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. And he hath put a new song in my mouth.
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08-12-2009, 05:22 PM	#125
datbimmerdoe Lieutenant General 1307 Rep 17,493 Posts Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY iTrader: (0)	SO... What is it chasing?
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08-12-2009, 05:54 PM	#130
footie Major General 1238 Rep 8,034 Posts Drives: i5M60 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: No where fast iTrader: (0) Garage List 2024 BMW i5M60 [0.00] 2022 BMW i4M50 [0.00] 2020 BMW M5 Competi ... [0.00] 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	This has turned from a proper debate to a mud throwing match. I'm done. When the debate returns to the subject matter then so will I.
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