[mirob]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Still the lap times dont lie. I mean he had nothing to do with professional factory test teams on the nordschleife I think?
Like I said I dont even think he'll risk his professional reputation by deliberately throwing results on a test track. It's more likely that they are consistent with what other drivers experienced, foremost as that was on the ring which like I said in my opionion should (or I'd expect) favor a higher powered cars having some long stretches. thus testing on a short technical track its pretty plausible that the civic R is faster than the m3.
So imho there is nothing that really points to him being a 'so-called' professional. His reputation is pretty firm I think. In that scope you can also question the reputation of Tiff Needell, Jason Plato and a bunch of others that were once professional drivers turned journalist and not journalism degree writers with a race training course.
I mean have you driven both and do you have a professional racing career? I dont, so why would I pick your opinion over someone that has earned merit?

Whoa...first of all, calm your tits...

Yes, I'm questioning the reputation of every single one of them...EVERY SINGLE ONE...YouTube views/TV ratings = money...tabloid journalism/sensationalism (yes, I said it) = views/TV ratings...never forget that...that's why Top Gear got so huge...not because they are reputable and people are looking for advice, but because it's entertaining...they aren't journalists, they're entertainers...

And don't confuse (former) racers with car experts...some of them raced cars...who gives a shit?...Jay Leno never raced cars...does that make him clueless when it comes to cars? Ask yourself this, what racer-at-heart would pick a diesel over a high performance sedan?

Also, I never even argued why the Type-R is faster than an M4 around the ring I just wondered if the CP M4 could improve on the regular M4s time...so check who you're replying to...Besides who cares, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Type-R (BMW snobbery? Call it what you will...doesn't hurt my feelings)...Ring times don't mean shit in the real world anyways...especially to me, I don't track cars...I drive a pig...

Long story short...my opinion doesn't matter, but you're depending on someone else's a bit too much...maybe you should try to formulate your own...

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by mirob

Whoa...first of all, calm your tits...

Yes, I'm questioning the reputation of every single one of them...EVERY SINGLE ONE...YouTube views/TV ratings = money...tabloid journalism/sensationalism (yes, I said it) = views/TV ratings...never forget that...that's why Top Gear got so huge...not because they are reputable and people are looking for advice, but because it's entertaining...they aren't journalists, they're entertainers...

And don't confuse (former) racers with car experts...some of them raced cars...who gives a shit?...Jay Leno never raced cars...does that make him clueless when it comes to cars? Ask yourself this, what racer-at-heart would pick a diesel over a high performance sedan?

Also, I never even argued why the Type-R is faster than an M4 around the ring I just wondered if the CP M4 could improve on the regular M4s time...so check who you're replying to...Besides who cares, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Type-R (BMW snobbery? Call it what you will...doesn't hurt my feelings)...Ring times don't mean shit in the real world anyways...especially to me, I don't track cars...I drive a pig...

Long story short...my opinion doesn't matter, but you're depending on someone else's a bit too much...maybe you should try to formulate your own...

But when I formulated/posted my own opinion, I was told to STFU and listen to Chris Harris

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Obioban

But when I formulated/posted my own opinion, I was told to STFU and listen to Chris Harris

Hehehe, you'll have to take that up with the other guys...I tried to help out but they weren't having it...

[TheHouseWon]

Don't know, don't care. I'm in love with my M5

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Couldn't disagree more on the E90. It's the pinnacle of the 3-series, and by far the best one across many areas from body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity to far better reliability than any prior version, etc, etc. It's the F30 where the huge divergence happened (i.e. steering ruined, rear suspension designed to toe in substantially under compression for more understeer, etc, etc).

It's one of the reasons after owning many BMWs for decades (and tracking, racing, enjoying them), I've essentially stopped at the E9x platform and currently own three of those.

Then again, this is all just an "opinion," which means it's worthless to most. My "opinion" does come from 45 years of involvement with BMWs, 40+ years of autocrossing, 35+ years of track and instructor experience, so you can see where my evaluation parameters lie -- performance, handling, driving experience *first*; comfort, do-dads, and all that junk a distant 2nd.

I wouldn't mind still having my E46 I suppose, but the E90 is a lot more fun, a better overall car in so many respects without being ruined by all the shenanigans BMW has implemented on F30 onward cars.

I see that you have naturally aspirated N52 powered E9x cars. I probably would have liked my E90 much more with the N52.

Regrettably, I had a turbocharged N54 powered 2007 E90 Sedan with ZSP, RWD and a 6MT. The troublesome, unreliable N54 is the main reason for my low opinion of the E9x. The car actually handled pretty well on road courses with a square 17x8 setup and Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 RFTs, so my problem wasn’t with the car’s handling. I also thought the stock brakes were very good.

The N20's noise and vibration are absolutely horrible in the current F30 328i.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

I see that you have naturally aspirated N52 powered E9x cars. I probably would have liked my E90 much more with the N52.

Regrettably, I had a turbocharged N54 powered 2007 E90 Sedan with ZSP, RWD and a 6MT. The troublesome, unreliable N54 is the main reason for my low opinion of the E9x. The car actually handled pretty well on road courses with a square 17x8 setup and Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 RFTs, so my problem wasn’t with the car’s handling. I also thought the stock brakes were very good.

The N20's noise and vibration are absolutely horrible in the current F30 328i.

Ha, but the N52 cars, while a superior, for my wants, engine, go in to limp mode when the car calculates you should be having brake fade-- regardless of if you actually are (street pads) or aren't (fitted track pads/fluid).

The N52 is a wonderful engine, easily my favorite non M BMW engine-- especially with 3 stage disa/headers/tune. ~300 crank hp in a NA inline 6 that weights almost nothing and is buttery smooooth.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I love my M4. The V6 engine is terrific. But that's what I've come to expect from a manufacturer that has specialized in making V6 engines from the beginning of its history. In fact, my very first BMW was a V6 -- the 2800 Bavaria. And a long line of V6 engines since then.

/sarcasm

I love the V6 in my 1 series too! They make the best V6 of any manufacturer!


In all seriousness, I drove a 2017 X3 the other day and am amazed by it; love everything about it. My only gripe is the steering is a bit numb.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mirob

Yes, I'm questioning the reputation of every single one of them...EVERY SINGLE ONE...YouTube views/TV ratings = money...tabloid journalism/sensationalism (yes, I said it) = views/TV ratings...never forget that...that's why Top Gear got so huge...not because they are reputable and people are looking for advice, but because it's entertaining...they aren't journalists, they're entertainers...
And don't confuse (former) racers with car experts...some of them raced cars...who gives a shit?...Jay Leno never raced cars...does that make him clueless when it comes to cars? Ask yourself this, what racer-at-heart would pick a diesel over a high performance sedan?

This is not a discussion about what cars he likes. This is a discussion about factual data. About how fast the m3 is on a track compared to some of the new hot hatches. that has been my point all the time if you read my contributions in this thread. You're either changing the subject or you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Long story short...my opinion doesn't matter, but you're depending on someone else's a bit too much...maybe you should try to formulate your own...

Again, I'm not depending on someone's opinion, unless you regard a time recorded by a stopwatch as 'an opinion'.....

[mirob]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is not a discussion about what cars he likes. This is a discussion about factual data. About how fast the m3 is on a track compared to some of the new hot hatches. that has been my point all the time if you read my contributions in this thread. You're either changing the subject or you're trying to put words in my mouth.



Again, I'm not depending on someone's opinion, unless you regard a time recorded by a stopwatch as 'an opinion'.....

Yeah, I read the points you were trying to make...the only pitfall is that you're putting your trust into the ability of Sutcliffe...who obviously, in your opinion, is the daddy of racing...

Here it is in layman's terms...if you really want to debate the M4 vs. Type-R Ring times.

Honda Civic Type-R (7:50:63)
[Honda conducted test, development car with technical specifications representative of the final production car. FWD car record, video confirmed.]

BMW M4 (7:52)
[Horst von Saurma, Auto Motor & Sport Germany]

While Horst is very capable and knows the Ring very well, you don't think a factory BMW driver, who helped develop the car on the Ring (and knows it just as well, if not better) would not put a better time down?

My point is, the M4 may be faster (definitely should be) than the Type-R on a tight technical circuit in the hands of someone more capable than Sutcliffe...you're too hung up on that one specific comparison. Any other head-to-head between the two where the Type-R came out on top...or even another review between the two, period?

...and no, a time recorded on a stopwatch is not up for debate...but the ability of Sutcliffe is...END OF STORY.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mirob

Yeah, I read the points you were trying to make...the only pitfall is that you're putting your trust into the ability of Sutcliffe...who obviously, in your opinion, is the daddy of racing...

No I dont think he's the daddy of racing but I do think he's capable of setting consistent lap times. More than 'some guy on a forum' is willing to question.

While Horst is very capable and knows the Ring very well, you don't think a factory BMW driver, who helped develop the car on the Ring (and knows it just as well, if not better) would not put a better time down?

Do you think that?
How many multiple times in laps do you think von Saurna set compared to that factory driver. He even held the all time ring record. So I think he's pretty capable yes.

My point is, the M4 may be faster (definitely should be) than the Type-R on a tight technical circuit in the hands of someone more capable than Sutcliffe...you're too hung up on that one specific comparison. Any other head-to-head between the two where the Type-R came out on top...or even another review between the two, period?

So 2 testing sessions on different tracks with different experienced drivers that point out the same in which is fastest is less of a factual value than no testing sessions by no drivers but by a guy on a forum that says so?
lmao

Also, I never even argued why the Type-R is faster than an M4 around the ring

But now you have....
So which is it.
What's up next, that the civic type R secretly doesnt have 300hp but 450hp and that everybody is too hung up by what the factory specs? That would make your story complete.
Because that is the core of my point, how do other manufacturers (Honda, Renault, Seat) pull it off, making cars that are equally fast but with 120hp less.(and for a fraction of the price).

[mirob]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

No I dont think he's the daddy of racing but I do think he's capable of setting consistent lap times. More than 'some guy on a forum' is willing to question.



Do you think that?
How many multiple times in laps do you think von Saurna set compared to that factory driver. He even held the all time ring record. So I think he's pretty capable yes.



So 2 testing sessions on different tracks with different experienced drivers that point out the same in which is fastest is less of a factual value than no testing sessions by no drivers but by a guy on a forum that says so?
lmao


But now you have....
So which is it.
What's up next, that the civic type R secretly doesnt have 300hp but 450hp and that everybody is too hung up by what the factory specs? That would make your story complete.
Because that is the core of my point, how do other manufacturers (Honda, Renault, Seat) pull it off, making cars that are equally fast but with 120hp less.(and for a fraction of the price).

You need to look up the definition of "consistent", first of all...consistent doesn't equal fast laps...I can put down consistent laps...doesn't mean shit...

I'm sure he spends a lot of time on the Ring, but factory test drivers live there, especially factory drivers of a brand that prides itself on MOTORSPORTS...

The fact that he no longer holds the record speaks for itself...fastest lap he's ever set is 7:24 in a 911 GT2 RS...there are a ton of faster laps on that list ahead of him from car manufacturers. Do you know why? Because factory drivers set faster lap times...

Maybe Sutcliffe owns Honda stock...you don't know that...or are you cradling his balls while he's setting the lap times since you're so sure? Oh, he said in the comment section that the drifting parts of the video were "eye candy"...my bad... why the fuck would you edit that into the hot lap segment...Wait, are you related to Steve?

You want the Type-R to be the faster car? It is...you have 2 separate instances. Why are you trying to convince me? I won't judge you if you buy one...your money, your decisions. You don't like that a econo-shitbox is faster than a sports car...quit buying BMWs. The GTS is a track oriented car and more comparable to the Type-R...even though I'd never put them in the same class...

While you're looking up the word 'consistent', look up 'power-to-weight ratio' as well..my balls weigh more than that Honda...

...oh, and manufacturers cheating on the Ring to achieve better lap times has never been an issue before...

I'm obviously wasting my time here.

Go home dude, you're drunk...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mirob

The fact that he no longer holds the record speaks for itself...fastest lap he's ever set is 7:24 in a 911 GT2 RS...there are a ton of faster times on that list ahead of him from car manufacturers. Do you know why? Because factory drivers set faster lap times...

So who set a faster lap in that car?
Or are you now comparing apples and oranges....
That he once held the track record says enough for me.

Maybe

yes maybe maybe, but the point is that you're just a guy behind a keyboard with no examples whatsoever... whats your proof? where's your argument?
Because you 'think' so? No real examples to speak for? No real life connection?
If you had a real example you could regain some credibility... but there are none. Where are your tests? that the m4 destroys a civic TR on the track?
You're just speculating without any proof. Both the civic TR, the megane RS and cupra 290 have already proven to be way faster than the previous m3.
The cupra's time (the slowest of the bunch) rivals that of the new m2, the megane's time rivals that of the current m5 (over twice the hp mind you...), and the civic TR is faster than both of them. So why couldnt it be faster than the M4?

I'm obviously wasting my time here.

Go home dude, you're drunk...

I think we now all know now what type of person you are...
nice argumentum ad hominem. Thats the way to go

[W///]

You guys are so right. I will go buy a car purely based on lap times

[mirob]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

So who set a faster lap in that car?
Or are you now comparing apples and oranges....
That he once held the track record says enough for me.



yes maybe maybe, but the point is that you're just a guy behind a keyboard with no examples whatsoever... whats your proof? where's your argument?
Because you 'think' so? No real examples to speak for? No real life connection?
If you had a real example you could regain some credibility... but there are none. Where are your tests? that the m4 destroys a civic TR on the track?
You're just speculating without any proof. Both the civic TR, the megane RS and cupra 290 have already proven to be way faster than the previous m3.
The cupra's time (the slowest of the bunch) rivals that of the new m2, the megane's time rivals that of the current m5 (over twice the hp mind you...), and the civic TR is faster than both of them. So why couldnt it be faster than the M4?




I think we now all know now what type of person you are...
nice argumentum ad hominem. Thats the way to go

BMW M3 CSL (7:50)
BMW M3 GTS (7:48)
BMW M4 GTS (7:27:88)

[mirob]

Originally Posted by W///

You guys are so right. I will go buy a car purely based on lap times

No one cares how you spend your money.

[OutlawX3M]

Originally Posted by mirob

Honda Civic Type-R (7:50:63)
[Honda conducted test, development car with technical specifications representative of the final production car. FWD car record, video confirmed.]

Just curious, do we know the tech specs that you're referring to? I'm having a hard time with "representative".

I mean for all we know, the specs show it's the same engine that the production car will have but is it's not tuned for emissions and MPGs like the production one will be.

Personally, if you're going to do a head-to-head comparison, go to a dealer and grab one then test. That's the only test IMO that rates. Anything else...well...no manufacrturer has ever tuned/tweaked a press car right?

Oh and the only driver's opinion from the 'Ring that I believe is Sabine Schmitz who has over 20,000 laps on the 'Ring.

[mirob]

THANK YOU!!! All points I was trying to get across earlier but they fell on deaf ears...

I'm not sure what 'representative' means either but it's the footnote that was attached to the posted lap...sounds like the car should be dealer spec...but the language they use is really muddy...

I also tried to make a point that sometimes there is a lot of iffy stuff going on in the background when those laps are set...

I agree, if you're spending your money you should drive and decide...but dude got hung up on lap times and dragged me into this silly argument...I'm over it though...

Ahh, I forgot about Ring Taxi...good call sir.

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

Just curious, do we know the tech specs that you're referring to? I'm having a hard time with "representative".

I mean for all we know, the specs show it's the same engine that the production car will have but is it's not tuned for emissions and MPGs like the production one will be.

Personally, if you're going to do a head-to-head comparison, go to a dealer and grab one then test. That's the only test IMO that rates. Anything else...well...no manufacrturer has ever tuned/tweaked a press car right?

Oh and the only driver's opinion from the 'Ring that I believe is Sabine Schmitz who has over 20,000 laps on the 'Ring.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by W///

You guys are so right. I will go buy a car purely based on lap times

Like most BMW drivers....

I'm not surprised the topic has taken the direction it has, but are most BMW users, even the average enthusiast, too worried about lap times?

I completely understand the hard core enthusiast can be disappointed with BMW's direction, but do wonder what percentage of drivers (even BMW enthusiasts) who use their cars as a daily driver judge the car the same way?

For me, a BMW has to be capable of a varied range of uses & duties and reward with driver satisfaction. From driving poorly surfaced single track roads, through to long motorway hauls of over 500 miles in a day. From driver only, to a loaded car full of passengers and luggage. BMW produce cars which fill my requirements. Of course there are compromises, but as a "package" I've yet to be convinced I need to move from BMW to get a vehicle that does a better job.

Looking back to the much loved E46, close fried ran two models, a 330Ci and a 320d wagon. Visited us here in the Scottish Highlands from the south of England, (over 600 miles), chose to make the trip in the 330Ci with the sport options. He said "never again", fine for his local driving, but not the car for 600 miles, he said he should have driven up his 'soft' suspension, small wheeled wagon.

BMW may be leaving a few enthusiasts out on a limb, but I'm still convinced BMW are adapting to the needs of their main marketplace. From my perspective may they continue to do so.

[Outlaw 06]

The now 16-year-old S54 is the best I6 engine ever produced by BMW's Motorsport Division in my opinion. It had a cast iron block, the freest flowing polished cast aluminum cylinder head ever produced by BMW, individual throttle bodies, very strong internals such as a forged steel crank and rods, solid valvetrain, coated aluminum pistons, etc. The S54 was the last I6 to follow the M philosophy of specially engineered, naturally aspirated, high compression, high RPM engines (albeit with high fuel consumption by today’s standards). Of course, the Motorsport-tuned chassis and manual gear boxes mated to the S54 powered M-Cars were wonderful too (E46 M3, Z3M, Z4M). Unfortunately, we probably will never see another engineering marvel like the S54 engine from BMW.

BMW has now fully embraced turbocharging as a cheap, easy, run-of-the-mill, mainstream method of boosting horsepower and fuel economy at the expense of throttle response, reliability and engineering. The E9x M3 was the last "traditional" M car with a specially designed, naturally aspirated, high-revving S65 Motorsport engine (unlike BMW’s current batch of M vehicles powered by slightly modified and tuned non-M "efficient dynamics” turbo engines).

As a self-described BMW M “enthusiast”, I am most disappointed with BMW’s decision to power M vehicles with slightly modified and tuned non-M "efficient dynamics” turbo engines.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Like most BMW drivers....

I'm not surprised the topic has taken the direction it has, but are most BMW users, even the average enthusiast, too worried about lap times?

I'm going to go the other way-- I don't really about lap times. I care about the driving experience. BMW has lost the plot for me because they seem to be focusing on easiness/comfort, lap times, and gadgets-- at the expense of driving experience and feedback. If BMW came out with a new e30 M3 today (probably slower than anything they sell today), I'd find that far more exciting than anything in their current lineup.

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

The S54 was the last I6 to follow the M philosophy of specially engineered, naturally aspirated, high compression, high RPM engines (albeit with high fuel consumption by today’s standards).

I actually find my S54 quite economical! When I go on drives with my wife (in her (RWD 6mt) n52 e9X), I always get better fuel economy than she does, and she gets better fuel economy than her friends 335i. Highway trips with the S54 are always mid 20s, my overall average is always in the high teens (albeit I never drive in an actual city in that car). The turbos benefit a lot more on the MPG test cycle than they do in real world fuel economy.

Where the s54 really doesn't match up to modern engines is emissions output. She's dirty.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I actually find my S54 quite economical-- when I go on drives with my wife (in her (RWD 6mt) n52 e9X), I always get better fuel economy than she does, and she gets better fuel economy than her friends 335i.

Odd. My wife's E90 330i 6MT, we've had since new 10.5 years ago, gets incredible gas mileage, especially on highway trips where on cruise at 75mph it usually gets ~32mpg (relatively flat between here and coast). It averages much better mileage than my E46 ever did.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Odd. My wife's E90 330i 6MT, we've had since new 10.5 years ago, gets incredible gas mileage, especially on highway trips where on cruise at 75mph it usually gets ~32mpg (relatively flat between here and coast). It averages much better mileage than my E46 ever did.

Well, to be fair, I'm never able to limit my highway cruising speed to much under 100... and most of it is closer to 110-120. At 75mph, everything could easily be different.
(especially for turbos cars-- being in boost, which they always are at that speed, negates the turbo fuel economy benefit)