[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

M3s have always been tweaked versions of the regular models. E46 and E9X cars were no different. Amazing how people that don't like the current offering try to reinvent history.

What I meant is that the older M cars were truly unique cars with significant powertrain differences. Nowadays the new M cars seem to be just "another" regular model. Just the idea of offering M performance parts to a M car is a sign that BMW does not offer their best stuff in their cars any longer. This opinion is shared with many technicians where my car is serviced. BMW seemed to had lost its way and numbers do not lie. I hope though their new models bring the excitement back with truly unique styling and game changer driving dynamics.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

What I meant is that the older M cars were truly unique cars with significant powertrain differences. Nowadays the new M cars seem to be just "another" regular model. Just the idea of offering M performance parts to a M car is a sign that BMW does not offer their best stuff in their cars any longer. This opinion is shared with many technicians where my car is serviced. BMW seemed to had lost its way and numbers do not lie. I hope though their new models bring the excitement back with truly unique styling and game changer driving dynamics.

If you think a current M3 is just a "another" regular 3-series and an M4 is just a "another" regular 4-series, you know absolutely nothing about the F8X ///M cars. You keep thinking that and those of us that own and drive them will continue to enjoy the excitement that you are waiting for BMW to bring back

[shanecarmaster1]

Doubtful, unfortunately. The new 7 is blah, the new 5 will take right after it, and the 3 series probably won't be shocking either. BMW wants to point fingers at not making enough SUV's, but since no one wants to drive their cars in the first place, how can they say that interests are shifting? Maybe if their cars were irrestable and still couldn't sell, I'd believe them. Either they know this and won't own up to if, or they're absolutely dumber than dirt.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

If you think a current M3 is just a "another" regular 3-series and an M4 is just a "another" regular 4-series, you know absolutely nothing about the F8X ///M cars. You keep thinking that and those of us that own and drive them will continue to enjoy the excitement that you are waiting for BMW to bring back

The thing is, all BMWs used to be exciting to drive, even 7-Er
Now, you need to go into Ms, but even then, Camaro SS beats the m4
:

[1cleanm6]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

The thing is, all BMWs used to be exciting to drive, even 7-Er
Now, you need to go into Ms, but even then, Camaro SS beats the m4
:

I dare anyone to take a drive in an e46 m3. It's raw, it's stunning to look at even at 10-15 years later, it's mechanical, you feel everything, the engine vibrates, the steering is great, the revs at 8k, the interior isn't all cheap plastic, and those arches(yum)

BMW we don't ask every single car to be this way, but atleast make the m cars great again.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

I dare anyone to take a drive in an e46 m3. It's raw, it's stunning to look at even at 10-15 years later, it's mechanical, you feel everything, the engine vibrates, the steering is great, the revs at 8k, the interior isn't all cheap plastic, and those arches(yum)

BMW we don't ask every single car to be this way, but atleast make the m cars great again.

I came from a 2006 E46 M3. Had it for 8 years and I loved it. I would take my M4 any day of the week over the E46 M3. Some of us are just different I guess.

[Bosozoku]

i3 sales are dismal this year, and will only get worse from now on.
The Tesla Model 3 will permanently take much of the i3's market.
And the faster Model 3's will take lots of M division's sales.

The good news for us enthusiasts is that BMW will be forced to make exciting cars again.
Leave the numb cruiser market to Mercedes and Toyota.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by Stratus650

Man the 6 series sales are a disaster compared to last year march, its less than quarter of what was sold

Geez Bmw gotta freshen up that car quick

There's a M6 Competition car sitting at the dealer since December... of course its grossly overpriced AND it's white with the stripes.

[scoale]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

If you think a current M3 is just a "another" regular 3-series and an M4 is just a "another" regular 4-series, you know absolutely nothing about the F8X ///M cars. You keep thinking that and those of us that own and drive them will continue to enjoy the excitement that you are waiting for BMW to bring back

Agree that new M3/M4 are more than tweaked versions of the platform. Having said that, they miss the mark. More torque than the chassis can handle, numb steering, disappointing exhaust sound, and too big. I suspect M2 will be closer to the mark, but BMW needs to address the cash cow (3 series) while pursuing the future (electric).

As for M, more HP/torque isn't going to cut it. M needs to deliver something that is as fun to drive in 35 mph zones and 2nd gear corner exits as it is at the track. My Boxster S only has 315 HP, but I have fun everywhere I drive it. And I never had a dull drive in my 235 HP ZHP.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by scoale

Agree that new M3/M4 are more than tweaked versions of the platform. Having said that, they miss the mark. More torque than the chassis can handle, numb steering, disappointing exhaust sound, and too big. I suspect M2 will be closer to the mark, but BMW needs to address the cash cow (3 series) while pursuing the future (electric).

As for M, more HP/torque isn't going to cut it. M needs to deliver something that is as fun to drive in 35 mph zones and 2nd gear corner exits as it is at the track. My Boxster S only has 315 HP, but I have fun everywhere I drive it. And I never had a dull drive in my 235 HP ZHP.

Different strokes for different folks. My M4 is as fun to drive in 35 mph zones and 2nd gear corner exits as it is at the track.

[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Different strokes for different folks. My M4 is as fun to drive in 35 mph zones and 2nd gear corner exits as it is at the track.

Several folks here also had driven the new M3/4 and think the new Ms are not as entertaining to drive as the older generations. We all get you own one, but we are just explaining BMW is missing the mark when they are not making the 3 series as they used to. They walked away from 50/50 weight distribution in the last generation to increase in its size and have driven one I refused to buy the current generation and looking at the sales numbers this year I am not alone. Cheers.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

Several folks here also had driven the new M3/4 and think the new Ms are not as entertaining to drive as the older generations. We all get you own one, but we are just explaining BMW is missing the mark when they are not making the 3 series as they used to. They walked away from 50/50 weight distribution in the last generation to increase in its size and have driven one I refused to buy the current generation and looking at the sales numbers this year I am not alone. Cheers.

I know a little about driving older generation BMWs since I have owned 18 of them, including many 3 series and M3s. I came to my M4 from a 2006 E46 M3. My M4 is the best BMW that I have owned and I get more enjoyment out of it than any other. We all have a right to our opinion. Cheers.

[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I know a little about driving older generation BMWs since I have owned 18 of them, including many 3 series and M3s. I came to my M4 from a 2006 E46 M3. My M4 is the best BMW that I have owned and I get more enjoyment out of it than any other. We all have a right to our opinion. Cheers.

Agree. Let's discuss facts and not opinions. Clearly you are upset because you own one, but let's agree to disagree that the current generation M3/4 won't be collectible cars 20 years for now. Enjoy your car in good health.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

Agree. Let's discuss facts and not opinions. Clearly you are upset because you own one, but let's agree to disagree that the current generation M3/4 won't be collectible cars 20 years for now. Enjoy your car in good health.

Okay. The fact is that my M4 is the best BMW that I have owned. I'm sorry, but I totally missed that the discussion had anything to do with collector cars. I am not upset at all and I will enjoy. Thanks.

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

i3 sales are dismal this year, and will only get worse from now on.
The Tesla Model 3 will permanently take much of the i3's market.
And the faster Model 3's will take lots of M division's sales.

The good news for us enthusiasts is that BMW will be forced to make exciting cars again.
Leave the numb cruiser market to Mercedes and Toyota.

We won't be hearing much anymore from mr marketeer, mr. scott26. Tesla model 3 pre-orders have exceeded 275,000 in 72 hours. compared to i3's pitiful 300+ orders for March 2016, it is now clearly obvious that BMW has failed miserably in understanding what the market is desiring. If BMW management cannot see this, then they are delusional. Model 3 is going to take a massive bite into 2018 BMW 3 series sales as well. Tesla is going to disrupt the industry like we have never seen in our lifetimes.

[mweine]

BMW has sold-out to the masses. They spend so much money on developing so many niche vehicles, which sell in few numbers, however they have deserted the car guys. If the next M5 will be AWD, have it available with a manual transmission. Wait, make the manual transmission an option on all the AWD vehicles, not just RWD models. We do feel abandoned and we do buy 2nd or third vehicles. However, when we feel that a brand has intentionally brushed us off, we have no interest in purchasing anything more from said brand. MB makes more exciting vehicles than BMWs now. If only auto was available in AWD sedans, I hate to admit it, but I would buy MB or VW over BMW. Why have brand loyalty, when BMW threw "customer loyalty" to the curb.

I am an avid BMW fan with five BMWs in my stable (All manuals, some AWD fives, some M's). However, when BMW decided to no longer make manual transmisions available on their large sedans and SUV's, and when the dealers tried very hard to convince me that the Manual is dead and that I had no choice, but to replace my fully equipped E60 535XDrive manual with a 535XDrive with an auto transmission or buy RWD if I wanted a manual transmission, I was disgusted and purchased two Mercedes SUVs and kept my E60 AWD manual as my daily driver. The MBs are far superior than the competing BMW's in driving dynamics. Heck, my parther's Cadillac CTS drives better than the new competing BMW's. If you dont believe me about how average new BMW's drive, try a 3 Series. Then immediatly, try a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camary. Then tell me if you honestly feel that the BMWs driving dynamics are any better. IMHO, they are about the same, but no better. What a shame..

[Nahlem]

As unfortunate as it is for BMW hopefully this is probably gonna be some form of wake up call for them, The Tesla Model 3 Will force BMW to get in to the game again. Its easy to get blindsided by your own vanity cause people have always bought your cars then think they will continue in doing so. Just cause its a BMW but as of now BMW is devaluing their own brand with continuing of just pumping out new models one after one without even giving a thought about improving the technology in their cars and making them more modern then they are.

BMW has to stop being so slow in adapting new tech to their vehicles and they have to stop charging for stuff that has been standard on other brands for years then thinking they can get away with it.

For example its ridiculous that Xenon's are not standard it should be on all vehicles no extra charge.

H/K Sound system especially in the 2 series could be classified as any other Sound System out there that ain't that good. And they charge you in Sweden about 7200 kr for it. About 800$ H/K Should be standard they should offer something like in style with B&W or B&O sound system as the premium version.

That's just a couple of those stuff where i think they have failed quite a bit.

Also they have to be faster to respond to their competition i think i read somewhere that they will release a new full electric vehicle in 2020, This has always been my issue with BMW they always play it safe they wait for everyone else to do the mistakes then they develop their own vehicle. But sometimes you have to be the first one out to take a chance at something and not just sit by and wait for stuff to be developed then implement it in their own vehicles. Its like living in the past constantly because you want to be safe.

But what BMW is not realizing by using this strategy they are actually pushing away customers to other brands and probably loosing them cause the customer discovers new cars within that brand that suits them more well.

For example imagine how fast the phone development is moving they can hardly keep up with supporting all new phone models my 2 series still doesn't support MY Galaxy S6 even with the new update and now the Galaxy S7 is here. And this is mostly because BMW don't want to put money on this type of stuff.

It seems that their primary goal is to offer one car for every market. And that is fine i guess if you want that for sales but what are sales for if you are not developing your brand to become something even greater, then you are just selling cars for the selling reason and not taking pride in your own product. But i guess that shows with the Warranty change for 2017 models that puts them in a certain situation where people question why they did that without real proper answers.

I wish that BMW would make a change before its to late but as of now it will probably go downhill form them for a while until they wake up. But probably next month they will have increased their sales globally by 18% or something and i will be wrong hopefully.

[LinkF1]

There isn't some car that came out that is head and shoulders above the competition that is stealing all of the sales in the luxury segment. The Tesla Model 3 isn't even on 95% of potential BMW buyer's radar because most new car buying still happens when someone goes to a dealership. There are no Model 3s available and most new car buyers aren't willing to wait around.

BMW's decline is directly related to the fact that they have changed the value proposition in the US over the past 4-5 months. They have significantly changed the "free maintenance" and BMW FS has significantly reduced the sales support, especially on leasing. These were two huge factors that CA's could use to convince buyers that owning a BMW was going to be a better experience than Mercedes or Lexus. Without those factors it is a much harder choice between the luxury brands.

I would expect the decline to continue until sales support returns, or BMW makes a change that alters the value back in the right direction.

[infamousdiz]

My M3 is the best looking/sporty car I could get in my segment. I love driving it and it does everything I ask of it. I think BMW is doing their best in the current environment. I came from lexus and infiniti and I can say that BMW service is 2x better than both of those companies

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by spmd11

We won't be hearing much anymore from mr marketeer, mr. scott26. Tesla model 3 pre-orders have exceeded 275,000 in 72 hours. compared to i3's pitiful 300+ orders for March 2016, it is now clearly obvious that BMW has failed miserably in understanding what the market is desiring. If BMW management cannot see this, then they are delusional. Model 3 is going to take a massive bite into 2018 BMW 3 series sales as well. Tesla is going to disrupt the industry like we have never seen in our lifetimes.

Why not. But to make things clearer something which some of you still fail to comprehend is that BMW exists with other markets also not just North America and although sales maybe down in one market they are not in other markets.
Both i3 and i8 will be receiving updates beginning with the i3 in the Summer with additional model lines and upgraded batteries.
The i8 will see the introduction of the i8 Spyder as well as a more performance orientated i8s. So there is still opportunities for the i3 especially.

When the Model 3 comes to the market there will be ample opportunity not just for BMW but everybody else to close the gap. Both Model S and Model X have shown that they will not arrive when scheduled expect the same for the Model 3.
And those orders are just that a figure. When the full specifications and prices are known these will significantly drop because I have seen this before not just with our company BMW but other manufacturers also.

The US might have the desire to replace their 3ers/ATS/C-Klasse/A4/XE with the Model 3? But the rest of the markets will not share the same sentiment.
Besides do not think for one moment everyone is standing still and caught in the Tesla's headlights. We indeed at BMW are developing the next phase of the sub-brand as well as ongoing development of Power eDrive as well as the physical option to offer every core model within the BMW portfolio as a PHEV.
So we are not standing still but moving forward perhaps than most.

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Why not. But to make things clearer something which some of you still fail to comprehend is that BMW exists with other markets also not just North America and although sales maybe down in one market they are not in other markets.
Both i3 and i8 will be receiving updates beginning with the i3 in the Summer with additional model lines and upgraded batteries.
The i8 will see the introduction of the i8 Spyder as well as a more performance orientated i8s. So there is still opportunities for the i3 especially.

When the Model 3 comes to the market there will be ample opportunity not just for BMW but everybody else to close the gap. Both Model S and Model X have shown that they will not arrive when scheduled expect the same for the Model 3.
And those orders are just that a figure. When the full specifications and prices are known these will significantly drop because I have seen this before not just with our company BMW but other manufacturers also.

The US might have the desire to replace their 3ers/ATS/C-Klasse/A4/XE with the Model 3? But the rest of the markets will not share the same sentiment.
Besides do not think for one moment everyone is standing still and caught in the Tesla's headlights. We indeed at BMW are developing the next phase of the sub-brand as well as ongoing development of Power eDrive as well as the physical option to offer every core model within the BMW portfolio as a PHEV.
So we are not standing still but moving forward perhaps than most.

It's nice to hear your optimism. But it is sorry indeed to see that your explanation is "catch up" and "follow" Tesla. This is a silly place to post this, buy you can tell your upper management friends that based upon your responses here, that you know an enthusiast that is so disappointed in the direction of BMW that he is going to begin liquidating all of his BAMXF investment, because BMW is no longer an innovator. It is always possible that I will buy a future BMW at some point, but I have been burned very badly by the vehicle that I have that has cost me so much in repairs and has been so unbelievably unreliable and the fact that BMWNA won't even respect the troubles we have been through with no contact whatsoever, has us very very soured on BMW. Btw, you can update the i3, but the design is hideously ugly and it is the reason you have sold 3xx in the month of March while your competitor has orders in the hundreds of thousands. I can't believe you can even make a statement about the i3. It's ridiculous.

Bottom line for me, as a long time loyal customer, you gave me an awful product and at the dealership and corporate level you act as though no problem exists. neither the dealership or the corporation acknowledge what we have experienced. And during these 6 years of ownership, we have watched BMW value in the US market place disappear with inferior products compared to the competition. It's all very troubling and disappointing

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Why not. But to make things clearer something which some of you still fail to comprehend is that BMW exists with other markets also not just North America and although sales maybe down in one market they are not in other markets.

The US might have the desire to replace their 3ers/ATS/C-Klasse/A4/XE with the Model 3? But the rest of the markets will not share the same sentiment.
Besides do not think for one moment everyone is standing still and caught in the Tesla's headlights.

This is the point that nearly everyone in this thread is missing: BMW is a global brand. Tesla is not. That is a massive distinction to make ...

... and what BMW is doing now as a global brand is developing its future to continue to be a global brand. 20 years ago, The U.S. was BMW's biggest market, and its global products were often responses to U.S. market forces. That is no longer the case -- all the proof one needs is the 2er sedan that's being built for the Chinese market.

Plainly, the X Series SUVs represent BMW's focus on the U.S. market; that is where the battle for market share -- as well as profit margin -- is greatest. The rest of BMW's U.S. lineup is secondary relative to the X Series at this moment in time for a variety of reasons -- and those vehicles' development is almost totally reactionary to competitors' offerings rather than maintaining BMW's brand traits and mystique. It's a delicate balance that yes, BMW is starting to lose in the U.S. -- and Tesla is not going to help it any.

(Oh, and by the way: BMW and Tesla are very much direct competitors in the U.S., and anyone who says they aren't doesn't understand the U.S. luxury car market. Right now, Tesla holds a cult of status that's rapidly approaching what Lexus had in the early 1990s -- and we all know what it and Acura did to German luxury car sales.)

But here's the thing: BMW has many other markets to focus on. Tesla doesn't. BMW is not a large company with unlimited resources. It has to pick its spots. And it is. They're just not all in the U.S. It's really that simple.