[carve]

Originally Posted by grieverr

It's that you cannot compare the two, and like I said earlier, you cannot easily put into words the "benefit" of having kids. Yea, a dog wags its tail when you come home. Well, kids yell "daddyyyyy!!!" and hug you.

There is no benefit from having kids. Babies are tough, toddlers even tougher, and teenagers impossible. And that's if things go well. And I agree that I'm sure having adult offspring is gonna be great, but you have to go through all the previous periods, which will strengthen your appreciation for your children.

Bottom line, you cannot rationalize it. To make it relevant to this website, its like buying a troublesome, foreign, more expensive BMW over a reliable, more economical, decent Honda. The BMW is just a better car either mechanically, aesthetically, or socially. Enough so to choose it over the Honda.

And having children is the same. Its a tough, thankless job, but for some people, extending the family, having someone else to share your life with and teach things to, seeing a DNA descendant of yourself grow, feeling the love of a child, and seeing the amazement you bring to them is worth all the other BS you go through.

Its not for everyone, and there certainly are no guarantees, which you seem to want. But nothing is guaranteed. Again, you chose marriage, but your spouse can leave you at any time. Yet you thought that was a worthwhile endeavor. My oldest son was a gift from the gods! Well behaved, soft spoken, listened to everything I told him to do. The youngest....not exactly! But we love them the same. And they each have their own personality that we respect.

Sorry for the long post, but I figured I'd get it all out. To specifically answer why I chose to have kids, well, its the above mentioned things about sharing your life, teaching, DNA, etc... Its was also to ensure that my family name lives on (thankfully I have boys). And most importantly, I wanted the father/child relationship, the unconditional love, and those moments that E92 SID described, where you feel so loved and appreciated.

As far as freedom, yea, I can't do exactly everything and anything, but for the most part, I can dine anywhere, I can take a trip anywhere, and I can socialize fairly frequently (easily 2x or 3x a week I visit w friends, alternate w the wife going out, etc...). It really depends on what you're willing to do with your kids. I have friends that took their 6 month old camping. I'm sure it wasn't the easiest thing, but they managed.

Again, and lastly, I'm not trying to sell you on it. And I certainly do not think anyone is better or worse for having/not having children. I just think you have to step out of the realm of logistics when deciding to have them or not. yes, its important to be responsible in this age we live in and the economy, but i really believe its an emotional decision.

Ok, and really, the last thing i want to say as far as the economics... We vacationed and took a trip (see?!, it can be done!) and stayed in a hotel. When I told my 5 year old we were leaving the next day, he wanted to stay because of all the fun we were having. I asked him, what about your (Queen size) bed? he said, we have this one here (we shared a full size). What about your toys?, I asked. It's ok, he said. We'll play on the beach and in this hotel room! What about your big, 3D HDTV? He replied, Dad, this one (19" CRT) is cooler because its inside the dresser and its hidden! Point being, we worry so much about providing for them, yet they need so little.

Anyway, whatever decision you make, make sure its YOUR decision, and be happy with it. Best of luck!

Thanks. Those are the kind of answers I was looking for (although my next car will probably be a compact Japanese SUV rather than a BMW

How did your expectations of this match the reality?


Also, I'm sure everyone here who has kids and isn't a psycho loves them. I'm sure a very primal drive takes over for most to care for them. I'm just wondering how most people got to that point, what their expectations were, and how that matches reality.

[carve]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

I was in a similar situation, however for some reason I always thought I would have a kid, but if it was left up to me I would have put it off forever. There is no logical reason to have children, if you don't want a kid don't have one.

My wife, like most women, wanted to have one before she turned 30., and we did. I have an 18 month old little girl.

I have not decided if it is more selfish to have children, or if it's more selfish not to. I could make a strong argument for either side. I can also say that one is enough for me, we'll see what my wife has to say about that.

What I have learned is that you don't really get to experience all of life until you have a little person of your own. You don't rember the first 5 years of your life, and you don't remember seeing things for the first time, but you get to see everything for the first time through the eyes of your child.

Another thing. They are more work then you think they are, they will test your patience and your relationship. I was talking to a friend (who has two boys) and we decided that kids take your relationship down one notch (great goes to good, good goes to ok, ok goes to not good, not good goes to bad).

They will do the cutest things you ever saw, they will make you see your parents in yourself, they will make you long for the old days, and they will add pressure on you to not f*ck up.

If you don't think you can handle a kid, or if you just don't want to be bothered, then don't have one. I would also say don't wait so long that you are an old parent, it's not fair to the kid.

We are all different do what works for you.

Another good reply. Thanks. It's kind of scary to get confirmation of that relationship strain thing though. I think that's one thing that does it for me; except for first cousins who've been married for far less time than me, I'm the ONLY person on EITHER side of my family who hasn't been divorced. NONE got divorced before having kids. It sucked for my parents, and sucked even worse for me. Sounds like it has probably really colored my views and expectations of family life with a lot of well-earned cynicism. It also makes me sick when I see couples having kids to try to "fix" their relationship. WTF are they thinking?

BTW- my wife and I are more active now than we were in our 20's. Marathons...centuries...round-the-world trips, etc. I'm not concerned with old-parent syndrome or "keeping up" with kids...it's just the biology.

[grieverr]

Originally Posted by carve

How did your expectations of this match the reality?

Not sure how to answer. I never thought about what to expect before having them. I, too, thought about the negatives of losing freedom and adding stress to my life. And I thought about the joy I'd get from them. And I've gotten both.

And that's pretty much how it is. On the negative, there are times when I'm home bored out of my mind, wishing I could jump in my car and go to a bar or a movie or something. Sometimes when I have to take him to school, I wish I didn't have to and could sleep in. Sometimes, I'd really like to watch a good movie and instead end up watching Finding Nemo for the billionth time.

However, to counter each point...being home bored can be easily remedied by playing with them. They like video games and rough housing (lets me tap into that inner-child of mine, who happens to still like playing with Legos - you should see my Lego Eiffel Tower!). I also use those times to show them something that I enjoy, like cars, and I get to enjoy their silly responses like "daddy, why don't you just put more cylinders in your car?!"
I get tremendous joy from seeing his progress in school and the pictures he draws for the family.
And Finding Nemo....it really IS a good movie Plus my kids now act it out, so I get a live show every time as well!

So again, for every bad, there's a good. And it really is all about your attitude. Some parents will be stressed out because they can't go out, others take time and make the best of it and enjoy their kids.

I'll tell ya, if I could, I'd proudly be a stay-at-home dad. That's how much I enjoy the positives of having the kids. And no job would be more fulfilling and (eventually) rewarding than raising my kids.

The more you open up, OP, the more it sounds like you've never had a strong family element in your life. So I can see, and respect, why creating one of your own doesn't have a huge appeal.

And it's not all roses like I may be trying to make it sound. The kids have certainly genuinely pissed me off on more than one occasion. And the stress of trying to raise them right and providing for them is real. Still, for me, its worth it.

[michaelthepsycho]

Fact: everyone wants kids.
Fact: nobody likes taking care of them.

Kids are for people who have time. It's not just about commitment. You can be an aloof, bare-minimum parent and it would still take time. Don't like giving up your time? Don't have them.

Kids age the heck out of parents. Almost all MILF types and cool middle-aged guy isn't a parent. My neighbor has two kids and she just looks defeated.

[samchoi604]

Would you write a list of disadvantages vs. advantages of being alive? Why do people live? What are the benefits?

Obviously you can't put logical reasoning as to why humans or the universe should exist. Personally I find having kids one of the main goals and achievements in life.

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by matthewk

Surprised you didn't mention Down Syndrome given the OP and Spouse's age...

At age 25, 1 in 1,250
At age 30, 1 in 1,000
At age 35, 1 in 400
At age 40, 1 in 100
At 45, 1 in 30
At 49, a 1 in 10

A Down's baby isn't your child until their 18, their your child for life. When you start bumping the odds like this, you should be thinking about it.

I have a son that is intellectually disabled. He will live with us forever.

He is the happiest, coolest and most amazing kid that you will ever meet. I wouldn't have it any other way.

To suggest that some people some people should not be born is so offensive.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho

Kids age the heck out of parents. Almost all MILF types and cool middle-aged guy isn't a parent. My neighbor has two kids and she just looks defeated.

my wife is 28 - we have a 4.5 year old boy and a 2.5 year old girl.

i can still pass her off as a 19/20 year old.

she is nothing short of Mega MILF Status....

HAHA !!!

[RnmEvo9]

Originally Posted by Litos

my wife is 28 - we have a 4.5 year old boy and a 2.5 year old girl.

i can still pass her off as a 19/20 year old.

she is nothing short of Mega MILF Status....

HAHA !!!

Post pics...

You had to see that coming.

[Boben5]

It's all a crap-shoot...

[anerbe]

Originally Posted by ideliver

I have a son that is intellectually disabled. He will live with us forever.

He is the happiest, coolest and most amazing kid that you will ever meet. I wouldn't have it any other way.

To suggest that some people some people should not be born is so offensive.

I understand your viewpoint.

However, you have to understand not everyone has the mental and emotional strength to care for a child with special needs. That's why there's all this genetic testing and statistics. It's to give planning parents an idea behind the potential outcomes. Combine this with the neverending debate between choice and life, there's no right or wrong answer. It's all viewpoints. I wouldn't take offence to it. It's not suggesting particular kids should not be born. One such child needs a strong support group, which thankfully, it looks like you and your wife exibit.

My wife and I shortly debated whether to get genetic testing. We both felt that we exhibited enough unconditional love, it was totally worth the risk. We decided to skip genetic testing and love the child no matter what.

Ended up with a baby boy 2 months ago. We didn't find out the gender prior to delivery, and with all our sisters, I was thinking girl all the way. He was born 7 weeks premature. Although the road to take him home was long and emotional with 3 weeks in the NICU, he is now a healthy, active little guy. I wouldn't have it any other way. He's my silly little man.

OP,

You're never ready to give up your current lifestyle and transition to parenthood. My wife and I were very active, with biking trips every other weekend, vacations, 10K/half marathons, night out with friends, etc...Car hasn't been washed in 2 weeks...

We are now mainly homebound. Although it's a bit sad to reminisce about our past active lifestyle, turning down nights with friends, etc... when you're holding your baby on a saturday night and having him watch your every move, nothing else really seems to matter.

Being the first of our group of friends to have a child, they have all dropped by multiple times. When they hold my baby, it's like a light switch has gone off. They all want to start trying too. All the activities that we have done have really been to fill up our time between work and sleep. There's definitely more of a purpose now.

If the list of all the "sacrifices" you have to do lists much longer than your pro's for having a child, you aren't ready. The contents of the list you originally posted are far more superficial than the feeling of having a child. Like others have said. It's not about logic.
Good luck with your decision.

[number335]

Originally Posted by carve

The point is to hear and discuss other points of view- particularly those of people who wanted kids and are happy with the decision.


It seems like I already made up my mind?


Lets see what I had to say about that...




Here's the deal: I don't have kids yet because of the negative's I listed in the OP. It was no big deal to not have kids because I could always have them later. It's later now.

The next 2 years or so are pretty much now-or-never time, so I really have to start thinking hard about this and gather as much info as possible to help make my decision.

The people here who wanted kids: was this just a primal drive in you...as strong as wanting to eat when you're hungry or have sex when you're horny? You just had a barely controllable jonesin' to have kids and couldn't say why? Did you sit around all irritable that you didn't have a kid yet, like I do when I'm starving or have blu balls? Or, was this more subtle and thought out? If so, please explain the subtleties.





No kidding it's my choice. When have I implied otherwise, or when have I required justification? I like making informed decisions. There are anonymous parents and hopeful parents here. I was hoping for some honest opinions that I can't ask of people I actually know. That's all.

Go back a reread your replies to everyone. You seem to be agreeing with everyone who has the stance on why it may not be best to have children. If someone mentions why children are a good idea, it becomes an argument.

[carve]

Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho

Kids age the heck out of parents. Almost all MILF types and cool middle-aged guy isn't a parent. My neighbor has two kids and she just looks defeated.

Well...technically you have to be a parent to be a MILF

I've recently noticed a lot of people who I thought were much older than us are the same age. Conversely, I have coworkers who though my wife and I were still in our 20's. (we're 34 and 36). They said "how do you do that!?" I said "at least two drinks a day and no kids " Keeps the stress down.

There are exceptions though. I work with a mother of four who is about the same age as me, and we look the same age.

[carve]

Originally Posted by ideliver

I have a son that is intellectually disabled. He will live with us forever.

He is the happiest, coolest and most amazing kid that you will ever meet. I wouldn't have it any other way.

To suggest that some people some people should not be born is so offensive.

Who will take care of him when you two are gone, or are old and need to be taken care of yourselves?

[brocken]

Originally Posted by 1love

To some (most?) people there is no logic involved, its all emotion. If you want kids you want kids. You ever dream of having a son turning wrenches with you in the garage?

If you don't have that feeling then don't have them. It already sounds like you are heavily against the idea and looking for reassurance. There are lots of people without kids who've led happy lives well into retirement.

This is probably the best advice in the thread. Especially after reading the OP's other responses about his emotional range.

If you have to come on a forum to ask whether you should have kids or not... it's pretty obvious you should NOT have kids.

It's one thing to be responsible and wait until you're financially secure to have children. That's what my wife and I did - waited 9 years before having our first. We both had the feeling for most of our marriage that we wanted to share the joy of children together. It took me quite a while to grow up and become less selfish. I didn't want to share my wife's time and attention with children and was too busy having fun with toys.

However, it's completely another thing to ask others if you should have kids. If you don't know in your heart/mind that you want children then it's pretty obvious you shouldn't have any.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by ideliver

I have a son that is intellectually disabled. He will live with us forever.

He is the happiest, coolest and most amazing kid that you will ever meet. I wouldn't have it any other way.

To suggest that some people some people should not be born is so offensive.

While not wanting to have kids, i agree with this 100%. My brother was has CP. He lives with my parents with his wife who also has CP. Have a disabled child in your life teaches you more than you could ever imagine. Not to mention you get a different perspective on life when you think yours is in the crapper. Then you realize that your brother has never know what's it's like to walk or communicate what he's feeling effetely or drive a vehicle let alone an E92M3. Life gets better after that internal conversation....

Originally Posted by Litos

my wife is 28 - we have a 4.5 year old boy and a 2.5 year old girl.

i can still pass her off as a 19/20 year old.

she is nothing short of Mega MILF Status....

HAHA !!!

Agree here to. There is a chick that works for me, she's got 2 kids and is hot as balls. If she and i weren't married to other people i would be shoplifting the pooty!!

There are plenty more out there as well.

The people who look defeated are likely the ones who didn't plan for their children or didn't put any logical thinking or planning into their lives with children.



I hear the your selfish bit too quite often being 37 and not wanting or planning on having kids. But you know what, not all people with out kids just hang out and party. Lots of us donate their time to charities. Lots of us are big brothers & sisters. Some of us visit orphanages and donate Christmas presents and or birthday presents should the orphanage know the kids birthdays. We have the opportunity to provide for foster families who are graciously providing food and shelter for kids but can't afford much anything else.

What's selfish to me is couples who NEED to have a child of their own seed. As i stated before the stats of babies being conceived through In Vitro have to be staggering and doing nothing but growing. So many parents don't get prego in the weak that they want and the wives start stressing about it which likely only prolongs the conception process. Then they go straight to In Vitro rather than looking at adoption because their child MUST come from their seed. I hear some women say they chose In Vitro because they desperately wanted to experience the pregnancy process. That, to me is selfish when there are clearly SO MANY unwanted children out there.

Choosing to not have children because your not sure you want to or are able to be the parent you feel you would need to be is far less selfish in my book.

The OP isn't saying he can't decide between a material object or a child. He simply on the fence and weighing the options. Smart, logical. Believe it or not, people are capable of weighing options logically while also factoring in your emotional feelings as well.

My wife and i are not on the fence, far from the fence in fact. But we've talked about it and decided that should our desires change in the future we would adopt, likely a teen-age child. So to the OP, there is a 3rd option on the table as well. If your instinct says no kids, go with it. If that changes, do society a solid and adopt a kid looking for the love you're ready to give.

[Bumer]

To all people who say they don't understand why anyone would want kids:

it must be a real tragedy your parents did not think same way.

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by abisson

If your parents had the same selfish thoughts as you... you wouldn't be posting this here.

Nor would we ever know the difference...

[CMW33]

I dunno, I use cost/benefit analysis for things like choosing investments or what car to buy. Using cost/benefit to decide whether to have kids is kinda like relying on your emotions to decide what mutual fund to buy.

[carve]

So...I'll ask again...to the people who say this is a purely emotional decision; was the desire to have a kid like this innate drive....this must-be-met primal urge that frustrated you until it was met? By that, I mean something silmilar to the need to eat when you're hungry...the drive for sex...the need for human interaction when you're lonely? A primal drive where you just feel frustrated and unsatisfied until the need is met?

[BMWinNorthdakota]

This thread has 5 pages for reasons far beyond my knowledge.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by carve

So...I'll ask again...to the people who say this is a purely emotional decision; was the desire to have a kid like this innate drive....this must-be-met primal urge that frustrated you until it was met? By that, I mean something silmilar to the need to eat when you're hungry...the drive for sex...the need for human interaction when you're lonely? A primal drive where you just feel frustrated and unsatisfied until the need is met?

We are mostly guys here, and guys are not the ones who have the primal urge to reproduce, we just have the urge to engage in the act that can lead to reproduction.

[PKL]

OP, here is my answer to your situation, and how I plan on following a similar logic to you.

Wait until I am 40 to have ONE kid, max time to enjoy "my" life.

Marry 30 year old.

Have my ONE kid with 30 year old, (versus someone my age), less chance of birth defect/wife looking ugly in 5 years.