[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Guibo

Straight from my link:
"Description of funding: Loans to GM after bankruptcy;
Treasury investment: $30.1."

The GAO report also spelled it out:
"GM is also subject to additional reporting requirements related to the reserve portion of its loan from Treasury that is being held in escrow.
Of the $30.1 billion that Treasury provided to GM at its bankruptcy filing, $16.4 billion was held in escrow to be accessed by GM on an as-needed basis with the consent of Treasury. As of October 5, 2009, GM had requested and received $3 billion from the escrow account."

The escrow funds are included in the Obama loan program. Even if you want to call the rest of it equity, it's still money loaned to them. They can't keep it forever.
.

Then why don't they list it as a loan in the breakdown in that same link? You show me where the GAO says GM owes them anything more than the $6B, and we'll end this.

Quote it and give us a paragraph number.

It's already been explicitly stated by everyone involved that EVERYTHING was converted into the three funds that I've listed about a dozen times when the new company was created. THERE IS ONLY ONE LOAN and that's the one GM just repaid. Get it?!

I'm not sure if you're too blind to see this, or if your'e just being a troll, but either way, until you can find it in the breakdown, I'm done. It's pointless to go on with this when you're just going to deny something that's in black and white from several different sources.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

There is no $30b loan. The monies owed are listed in very clear terms, straight from your link.

I quoted right there from the GAO link, exactly as you asked and now that you don't like the result, you're going to cry about it? It doesn't matter, because the $30.1B is not from GM's earnings; it's taxpayer-funded TARP money. GM can't do whatever they want with it. They have already entered into binding agreements to return the pure loan, issue stock at the right time, and report on their activities with funds in the escrow account. Even your carlist.com link details how they paid back the loan: it's not from earnings like Whitacre implies.
The escrow amount doesn't have to be itemized. It's already figured in the $30.1B package, and specifically mentioned by GAO (and your own link, which you conveniently glossed over...hmm, I wonder why!). If it's already mentioned by GAO, why the hell would I need to show it under an itemized heading?? They've already cited it in official document, and that's good enough. Are you still denying the existence of this escrow fund?

GM's media site reported this:
"As of September 30, 2009, cash and marketable securities totaled $42.6 billion. Included in this amount was $17.4 billion held in escrowed funds from the United States Treasury (UST) and Export Development Canada (EDC)."
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us.../1116_earnings
They didn't list it specifically under the "cash and marketables" chart. They didn't have to. It's already mentioned in text. Those with a pea for a brain might require that it be itemized under a heading to exist.

If you want to continue to believe that GAO, TARP's SIG, Ron Bloom, GM's Vice Chairman Birksy, GM's own media site, Reuters, and just about everyone else are making this all up, that's your choice. It marks you out as an idiot. But then, you would have to be something of a moron to ask for consent by Treasury to be able to use your own money. Which I'm pretty sure you do, right?
No explanation as to how they would back those shares if they used the value behind those shares to repay the loan, I see...

[Guibo]

I don't see how it can't get anymore clear than this.

"Kevin Puvalkowski, the Treasury's deputy special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, pointed out that GM had in fact repaid the funds from an escrow account containing government funds that was set up when GM exited bankruptcy proceedings last year.
He said it was 'good news' GM did not need the money to fund its operation but it essentially paid off a government loan with taxpayer funds. The repayment did nothing to reduce the government's equity stake in the automaker, he said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63S5CM20100429

Of course it wouldn't reduce the government's equity stake. It wouldn't affect it in any way. By all accounts from all parties involved, the cash apparently came from the escrow account, not the equity. The account was set up to provide exactly this "repayment" in the event that GM didn't need all of it.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Guibo

I quoted right there from the GAO link, exactly as you asked and now that you don't like the result, you're going to cry about it? .

The hell you did. FIND IT IN THE BREAKDOWN.

There's a VERY clear breakdown of what GM owes the government, and there's NO OTHER LOAN other than the one they just paid off. At this point ALL the government has is equity in the company.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Guibo

I don't see how it can't get anymore clear than this.

"Kevin Puvalkowski, the Treasury's deputy special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, pointed out that GM had in fact repaid the funds from an escrow account containing government funds that was set up when GM exited bankruptcy proceedings last year.
He said it was 'good news' GM did not need the money to fund its operation but it essentially paid off a government loan with taxpayer funds. The repayment did nothing to reduce the government's equity stake in the automaker, he said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63S5CM20100429

Of course it wouldn't reduce the government's equity stake. It wouldn't affect it in any way. By all accounts from all parties involved, the cash apparently came from the escrow account, not the equity. The account was set up to provide exactly this "repayment" in the event that GM didn't need all of it.

No kidding it didn't reduce the equity in the company. That's the whole point. The equity won't be reduced until the government SELLS ITS SHARES.

All the cash GM had came from the taxpayers. $6B was a loan, and the rest (as I've been saying for the last 3 pages) was in EQUITY in the company, which will NEVER be repaid by GM.

Do you even understand what happens when you buy stock in a company?

The company doesn't pay you back. It's not a loan, and unless you're a majority shareholder, you don't get any say in how it's spent. You own a piece of the company, and you are free to sell it whenever you want to recoupe your investment, which is exactly what the taxpayers will do.

GM repaid this loan with money it got from giving up equity, and it's a perfectly reasonable move for them to use that money to pay down debt. Anyone who thinks they should have kept the money in th bank and continued to pay interest to the taxpayers is a complete idiot.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The hell you did. FIND IT IN THE BREAKDOWN.

Like I said, it doesn't have to be listed in the breakdown. It's part of the $30.1B package and the GAO already mentions it in the document. That's all that's required to establish the existence of the escrow fund, nevermind the testimony by TARP's SIG to the Senate and official document to Treasury as well as GM's own financial reporting. Do you see it listed individually on GM's cash table? No. It doesn't have to be.

I don't see how you can possibly deny what Puvalkowski said. GM's exec said the same thing: one pot of TARP money was used to pay off debt in another.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

GM repaid this loan with money it got from giving up equity, and it's a perfectly reasonable move for them to use that money to pay down debt. Anyone who thinks they should have kept the money in th bank and continued to pay interest to the taxpayers is a complete idiot.

This money they got from giving up equity...where did it come from?
And anyone who thinks GM was going to continue to pay interest indefinitely is an idiot. The arrangement was that whatever was left by June would be paid used to pay back the US and Canadian governments; GM simply moved the payment forward, with the added bonus that whatever's left in the account is theirs to keep and because they've paid back the loan, they're in a prime position to qualify for additional loans.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Guibo

Like I said, it doesn't have to be listed in the breakdown. It's part of the $30.1B package and the GAO already mentions it in the document.

And that money was given to GM in exchange for equity. It's not the taxpayers money any more, and spending it to repay debt is a perfectly legitimate way to use it once it was clear it wasn't needed to cover day to day operations. End of story.

This whole uproar was created by a couple of people who lacked a fundamental understanding of the structure of this deal. As a shareholder, you don't get to have your stock and get the money you paid for it returned to you.