[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by immiketoo

Boys! This debate is hilarious. Robo and wiggy; trying to explain technical car design to people is like trying to explain what sex feels like to a virgin. The models you made are awesome and you clearly have the eye for aesthetics. Paint the ugly little fucker stealth fighter flat black (Its gonna need radar absorption capabilities). Car design is part sceince, part art and part who gives a fuck what you think. The Gumpert is ugly in name and form but its stupid fast (I knew a girl like that once...) and it does what it's supposed to. So it has a little ass crack showing. (I knew a girl like that once too) So what? Sell it to batman or the military or pizza delivery drivers and the cops, stand back and watch the carnage

And for the record, the Aztek is the ugliest POS ever designed. Period.

^ he understands!!! ur my new best friend

[wiggyx]

[immiketoo]

Wow, you guys are fast! Got my post before edit. Either way, thanks again for the info!

[shagoki]

Mike, you are my new hero

[Robo Squirrel]

we are forum junkies

[immiketoo]

Originally Posted by shagoki

Mike, you are my new hero

Finally! Now I have an excuse for that stretchy outfit with the cape I have

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

...What are you Fox News??? Make it up and say it and it's true???...

...Are you sure you're not Bill O'Reilly? ...

Everyone who watches NBC news ought to watch Fox News, and everyone who watches Fox news ought to watch NBC news.

Between the two, one gets an idea of wahat's actually happening.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the repartee.

Bruce

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by immiketoo

Finally! Now I have an excuse for that stretchy outfit with the cape I have

lolz

[shagoki]

So I did want to hear what a PT Cruiser had to do with the baby of a Scion XB and a Ford GT...yes, the Apollo. I mean WTF could they make anything else on this car a perfect square? Not the mention the mesh grills look like some gay ass body kit for a civic.

[immiketoo]

Originally Posted by shagoki

Not the mention the mesh grills look like some gay ass body kit for a civic.

[footie]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

That'd be all fine and dandy if they hadn't so obviously tried to style it like a road car/track car hodge-podge. If it looked like it had been purpose built then we'd leave it alone, but it doesn't.

OK, here's where I think we are differing in our opinions. Firstly you see the Gumpert's design as a hodge-podge between road and track, HELLO, it is a road going track car but unlike the ARC it's design is less about form and all about function. Secondly, this thread was to praise Gumpert for putting those American upstarts (ARC and ZR1) in their place which it did and then some. Debating how beautiful or ugly it is has nothing to do with this thread or what Gumpert are all about.

Originally Posted by wiggyx

Vulgarity?! Obviously you don't have to like it, but why exactly is it vulgar? It's a pure driving machine. No excessive electronic nanny's to keep you in check, very few creature comforts, etc.

What is there to like about it?

It's not a pure driving machine, it's got the engine from a truck and a gearbox to match. It's a car that produces the number but doesn't do it with any finesse or quality. The vulgar comments were relating to it's exterior design, though the interior is probably even worse.

[immiketoo]

Speaking of truck motors, isn't Jaguar owned by Land Rover??? They make trucks, I think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Cars

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by footie

OK, here's where I think we are differing in our opinions. Firstly you see the Gumpert's design as a hodge-podge between road and track, HELLO, it is a road going track car but unlike the ARC it's design is less about form and all about function. Secondly, this thread was to praise Gumpert for putting those American upstarts (ARC and ZR1) in their place which it did and then some. Debating how beautiful or ugly it is has nothing to do with this thread or what Gumpert are all about.

I AM NOT DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT THE CAR IS UGLY. That's obviously been covered. We all think it's ugly. Got it.

I'm not going to re-state what I'm arguing for the third or forth time.

Originally Posted by footie

What is there to like about it?

It's not a pure driving machine, it's got the engine from a truck and a gearbox to match. It's a car that produces the number but doesn't do it with any finesse or quality. The vulgar comments were relating to it's exterior design, though the interior is probably even worse.

Its proportion (tiny cockpit with long, exaggerated hood, etc), wide stance, simple but effective graphics, etc. Basically all the things that you don't like about it. It doesn't require a DOHC, direct injected, COP, whatever engine to be pure. Nor does it need to do its job with finesse. What makes it pure is its lack of electronic gizmos that keep the driver going straight now mater how terrible a driver they may be, its no-nonsense, spartan cabin, its configuration that helps to ensure performance, and not driver comfort. As for quality, who are you to question it? Ever owned one?

You sound like some Euro snob that thinks every US car is complete shit. Am I right?

[Robo Squirrel]

so basically....what wiggy, said.

i was never trying to make this a US car vs EU car battle thread...and all i said was that the car is ugly...Sorehead started debating. I dont like the viper just because its american....and i dont dislike the gumpert b/c its from europe. its not about that.

I know the gumpert is an amazing machine, it does what it does very well, except look good.

All purpose built race cars are not ugly. example audi r10

Also if you are saying that the gumpert is ugly b/c its designed purely based on aerodynamics and cooling....but then criticizing the viper for have a shoddy interior, then you are contradicting yourself. TRUE race cars dont have an interior.

The viper is a good looking car, most people would agree. its a little dated, but it still holds up.

[footie]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

I AM NOT DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT THE CAR IS UGLY. That's obviously been covered. We all think it's ugly. Got it.

I'm not going to re-state what I'm arguing for the third or forth time.

Hey, you brought up the subject of it's looks not me.

Originally Posted by wiggyx

Its proportion (tiny cockpit with long, exaggerated hood, etc), wide stance, simple but effective graphics, etc. Basically all the things that you don't like about it. It doesn't require a DOHC, direct injected, COP, whatever engine to be pure. Nor does it need to do its job with finesse. What makes it pure is its lack of electronic gizmos that keep the driver going straight now mater how terrible a driver they may be, its no-nonsense, spartan cabin, its configuration that helps to ensure performance, and not driver comfort. As for quality, who are you to question it? Ever owned one?

You sound like some Euro snob that thinks every US car is complete shit. Am I right?

You are right about no electronic gizzmo getting in the way, but then you wouldn't compare the sheer joy of driving an Elise to the man handling require for the ACR. I think you are missing the point I was making, the Viper is simply about the numbers as with most American muscle car, big capacity, big horsepower, big torque, big wide tyres, big overal width, etc, etc. And no I am not a Euro snob but I do not get American love of everything having to be SUPERSIZED.

Actually about the quality of the product, yes I did get to drive one, no I wasn't impressed but that may have be down to the fact it filled the width of the road and you were always concerned about other road users around you.

Oh an I actually like the ZR1 but given the choice I would chose any other exotic sportscar from Europe ahead of it, as no doubt would just about everyone else.

[footie]

BTW, at Angst Kurve it was pulling an astonishing 1.7G

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by footie

Hey, you brought up the subject of it's looks not me.


You are right about no electronic gizzmo getting in the way, but then you wouldn't compare the sheer joy of driving an Elise to the man handling require for the ACR. I think you are missing the point I was making, the Viper is simply about the numbers as with most American muscle car, big capacity, big horsepower, big torque, big wide tyres, big overal width, etc, etc. And no I am not a Euro snob but I do not get American love of everything having to be SUPERSIZED.

Actually about the quality of the product, yes I did get to drive one, no I wasn't impressed but that may have be down to the fact it filled the width of the road and you were always concerned about other road users around you.

Oh an I actually like the ZR1 but given the choice I would chose any other exotic sportscar from Europe ahead of it, as no doubt would just about everyone else.

but you are defending the looks, if you didnt defend them...then we wouldnt have to argue.

the viper isnt simply about numbers, its about an old school front engined race car experience, (AC Cobra) They can handle well with a few suspension upgrades. I had a 97 GTS, it was a hobbled together piece of rubbish....but i loved it...the most exciting car ive ever owned. you never felt total safe, which made it fun, but if you are a good driver, it would reward you.

It would handle as well as an elise, but that isnt the viper's M.O.

I love the exige/elise as much as i love vipers, but for totally different reasons...

The elise has a corolla engine....the viper has a truck engine, so what

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by footie

Hey, you brought up the subject of it's looks not me.



You are right about no electronic gizzmo getting in the way, but then you wouldn't compare the sheer joy of driving an Elise to the man handling require for the ACR. I think you are missing the point I was making, the Viper is simply about the numbers as with most American muscle car, big capacity, big horsepower, big torque, big wide tyres, big overal width, etc, etc. And no I am not a Euro snob but I do not get American love of everything having to be SUPERSIZED.

Actually about the quality of the product, yes I did get to drive one, no I wasn't impressed but that may have be down to the fact it filled the width of the road and you were always concerned about other road users around you.

Oh an I actually like the ZR1 but given the choice I would chose any other exotic sportscar from Europe ahead of it, as no doubt would just about everyone else.

I didn't "bring up the looks". Plenty of people did that before I got here. I just posted my criticism of the looks. I wasn't debating them, as there is no debate. Nobody here seems to think the car is attractive.

What does the Elise have to do with anything here? Yeah, it's a great car, but it's not at all in the same category as the Viper. Stay focused. Also, I like how you think the Viper is "just about the numbers". Give me a break.

Sorry you have narrow roads there. That has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with your location. The US is HUGE. Big country, big, wide roads. It fits our roads just fine. Being rather small myself (~170cm) I don't like driving really large vehicles. The Viper is about as big as I'd ever feel comfortable driving. By US standards the Viper isn't terribly large.

The bold bits only serve to prove my point. No matter what, you'll always buy European. And man, are you presumptuous! "I would chose any other exotic sportscar from Europe ahead of it, as no doubt would just about everyone else." Don't go speaking for everyone else there, bud. You sure as hell don't speak to my likes and dislikes. Your (rather biased) opinion is yours, not the rest of the car buying population.

[Robo Squirrel]

a gentleman from Norway purchased my viper from me when i sold it. Some people in europe like vipers too

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by immiketoo

Speaking of truck motors, isn't Jaguar owned by Land Rover??? They make trucks, I think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Cars

God knows who owns who anymore but Jaguar don't put the engines from SUV's (they don't make trucks) into their cars. They put the silky engines from their cars into their high end SUV's. BIG difference.

I love the whole idea of the Viper for what it is. Something along the lines of a TVR but you have to accept the realities of it. It is a truck powered car and it has no driver aids (just like a TVR) which you can paint anyway you want by saying driving purity etc but the bottom line is the absence of driver aids is just plain dangerous for most average drivers. And no one can defend that interior in a 100k car.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

a gentleman from Norway purchased my viper from me when i sold it. Some people in europe like vipers too

Lots of people in europe like vipers. I like vipers (I prefer the GTS to the vert though and you can keep those repulsive colours ). You have to love cars that are stupid fast regardless of where they come from or what they look like. I've owned Imprezas, Evos and GT-R's though the years and they couldn't be called beautiful by any stretch (other than looking the part).

Here's a task for you so we can all be friends again. I realise you probably have other things to do so don't spend more than 5 or 6 hours on it ()

Using pure design rules and taking personal task and emotion out of it completely which model year of 911 is the "best" designed. I would suggest only base models (including spoilers if they were fitted as in 80's) unless you want to take the question on as a full time career

Which is your guess before you start to analyse? I'm thinking 964 or 997.

[Robo Squirrel]

i like TVRs, lolz.

The only thing that the vipers engine uses from the truck version...is the block....well even that is different b/c the trucks block is cast iron and the vipers is aluminum, as are the heads, which were created for use in the viper. Everything besides the mold for the block were changed for the viper. I'd one apart, i should know. And i worked at chrysler with SRT engineers.