[six_timer]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Agree on Vettel for sure but not on Bottas being competitive with Hamilton.

We are talking about top 10 in the MODERN era (90's - today)
My list would be as follows:
1) Senna
2) Schumi
3) Hamilton
4) Alonso
5) Prost
6) NIgel Mansell
7) Vettel
8) Mika Hakkinen
9) Kimi Raikonnen
10) Gerhard Berger? Damon Hill? Villeneuve? is it too soon to say Max Verstappen?

For 10th, Berger and Hill both have points for and against. Villeneuve was essentially placed in the best car at the right time when he won (as was Hill), he struggled afterwards.

I would seriously consider Button; he smoked Takuma Sato at BAR Honda (finishing p3 one year), won with Brawn, and against Hamilton at Mclaren he had 2 even years and one where he was p2 vs Hamilton's p5. He then outperformed his next 2 teammates (Perez and Magnussen), and was even with Alonso in 2015. He only lagged him this year, which was his last. Plus the car sucked.

[Ramos]

I give Button a lot more credit than most people do. But maybe his smooth style and lack of flash on track make him seem less of a "racer"? The reality is that any non-pay F1 driver is a great driver. I think the difference in pure speed between them is less than 1%

What makes some drivers better than others is the ability to cope with new regs, adjust your driving style to suit the car you're driving, and help develop and set up the car.

Also, I always thought the best way to judge these guys was how they drive in the rain.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I give Button a lot more credit than most people do. But maybe his smooth style and lack of flash on track make him seem less of a "racer"? The reality is that any non-pay F1 driver is a great driver. I think the difference in pure speed between them is less than 1%

What makes some drivers better than others is the ability to cope with new regs, adjust your driving style to suit the car you're driving, and help develop and set up the car.

Also, I always thought the best way to judge these guys was how they drive in the rain.

I agree with all of this.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by five_timer

So first you insult me, then admit you completely missed the point, but no apology. You're a real winner.


How does this differ from my statement that Hamilton is lucky/smart? Let's clarify a few things:
1 - I'm a huge Hamilton fan, not an ass-kisser.
2 - Because of his luck with teams, he has not proven himself as has (for example) Alonso.
3 - All of you Hamilton fanboys seem to universally omit any mention of Vettel, who won a race with a Torro Rosso, and then (similar to Hamilton) went to a 2nd-tier team (Red Bull) and helped make it the best. The guy wins 4 successive championships, and everyone says it's meaningless, because he just happened to be in the best car. But somehow, Hamilton is different?

I didn't miss THE point, I missed A point and clearly admitted it.

This is exactly why I asked if you even watched F1. Point by point.

1. Glad you're a HAM fan. Congratulations.

2.. Luck implies a lack of skill and determination. His SKILL in the car earned him the opportunity to have the great seats. That said, his performance is head and shoulders above all drivers in F1 currently except for ALO, RIC, and VES. Go back and read the records for each of his seasons. Still the only driver to win a race in every season since he started.

3. You may want to consider about a chap named Adrian Newey. He currently holds and will probably hold forever the record for the most championship winning F1 cars designed. Look it up. As Steve Machett stated, "If you want to design a championship winning car, the best place to start is with Adrian Newey."

As far as VETs championships go, look up what ALO said about them. Look at what ALO says about HAM. VET got CRUSHED by RIC...crushed. None of HAMs teammates have crushed him. Button beat him once and now with the help of an engine meltdown (Malaysia), ROS has as well.

Lastly, referring to the point of HAM winning championships vs VET, HAM has won in 2 different teams under 2 different formulae. While the Mercedes Benz's are clearly dominant, the MP4-23 was not. The Ferrari was significantly faster. VET won in a car that pushed the rules to the breaking point (which I admire) and allowed him to accelerate out of corners dozens of meters earlier than other drivers. When they took his cool technology away, he faltered and was crushed. Not the same as HAM just as ROS is no WBR. ROS did a credible job against HAM...no shame in his performance. I've met him. I'm just not a fan. VET crushed WBR. I am a Webber fan but he was crushed.

I've been watching F1 since I was 8 or 9 years old. The only break I've taken was when Senna died. I didn't watch for 2 years afterwards. I've been watching HAMs career since he was 16 and knew he was special then.

Cheers-mk

[2M]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I give Button a lot more credit than most people do. But maybe his smooth style and lack of flash on track make him seem less of a "racer"? The reality is that any non-pay F1 driver is a great driver. I think the difference in pure speed between them is less than 1%

What makes some drivers better than others is the ability to cope with new regs, adjust your driving style to suit the car you're driving, and help develop and set up the car.

Also, I always thought the best way to judge these guys was how they drive in the rain.

Very true, not to get off topic
here but look at Valentino Rossi in MotoGP. 20 years racing and is right in the front fighting it out with world champions young enough to be his kids. He's been adjusting constantly through the MotoGP eras.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by franciswilliams

hi

Sir Frank...is that you?

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I didn't miss THE point, I missed A point and clearly admitted it.

This is exactly why I asked if you even watched F1. Point by point.

1. Glad you're a HAM fan. Congratulations.

2.. Luck implies a lack of skill and determination. His SKILL in the car earned him the opportunity to have the great seats. That said, his performance is head and shoulders above all drivers in F1 currently except for ALO, RIC, and VES. Go back and read the records for each of his seasons. Still the only driver to win a race in every season since he started.

3. You may want to consider about a chap named Adrian Newey. He currently holds and will probably hold forever the record for the most championship winning F1 cars designed. Look it up. As Steve Machett stated, "If you want to design a championship winning car, the best place to start is with Adrian Newey."

As far as VETs championships go, look up what ALO said about them. Look at what ALO says about HAM. VET got CRUSHED by RIC...crushed. None of HAMs teammates have crushed him. Button beat him once and now with the help of an engine meltdown (Malaysia), ROS has as well.

Lastly, referring to the point of HAM winning championships vs VET, HAM has won in 2 different teams under 2 different formulae. While the Mercedes Benz's are clearly dominant, the MP4-23 was not. The Ferrari was significantly faster. VET won in a car that pushed the rules to the breaking point (which I admire) and allowed him to accelerate out of corners dozens of meters earlier than other drivers. When they took his cool technology away, he faltered and was crushed. Not the same as HAM just as ROS is no WBR. ROS did a credible job against HAM...no shame in his performance. I've met him. I'm just not a fan. VET crushed WBR. I am a Webber fan but he was crushed.

I've been watching F1 since I was 8 or 9 years old. The only break I've taken was when Senna died. I didn't watch for 2 years afterwards. I've been watching HAMs career since he was 16 and knew he was special then.

Cheers-mk

There is no excuse for being insulting and condescending on a forum such as this. I've got more history with F1 than you, yet (unlike you) I don't bring it up, because this is not a competition.

"Luck implies a lack of skill and determination". So now you're telling us what to think? I meant the word "luck" exactly as it's intended; he took a chance, and it turned-out to be the best move. The only one making implications is you.

As for the rest of your drivel, you seem incapable of accepting an opinion about Vettel that's shared with much of the world's racing fans, and supported by statistics. That's your problem, not mine.

I'd like to end this pissing contest, and get back to talking F1, mkay?

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by five_timer

There is no excuse for being insulting and condescending on a forum such as this. I've got more history with F1 than you, yet (unlike you) I don't bring it up, because this is not a competition.

"Luck implies a lack of skill and determination". So now you're telling us what to think? I meant the word "luck" exactly as it's intended; he took a chance, and it turned-out to be the best move. The only one making implications is you.

As for the rest of your drivel, you seem incapable of accepting an opinion about Vettel that's shared with much of the world's racing fans, and supported by statistics. That's your problem, not mine.

I'd like to end this pissing contest, and get back to talking F1, mkay?

The actual definition of 'Luck' is, 'things that happen to a person because of chance.' Specific words mean specific things.
I am stating that he made a decision based on data that neither you nor I had (or perhaps you actually had because of your history in F1).

Consider it ended because you didn't address a single point I made.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

I liked him, and kind of tried to mimic his workout routine - but some of his coordination routines were way out of my capability.

I'm wondering if partnering with Hamilton took the joy away?

Like what? Have a link?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by five_timer

What an absolute joke. Rosberg outperformed Schuey at Mercedes, but he gets no credit. Hamilton is the luckiest (smartest?) driver - he went from one top team to the next top team. He's never had to prove himself.

WHAT? He ran toe to toe with Fernando in his rookie season - he EARNED that.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

WHAT? He ran toe to toe with Fernando in his rookie season - he EARNED that.

Don't bother. Not everyone knows what the word LUCK means.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Don't bother. Not everyone knows what the word LUCK means.

Claims he's a HAM fan, says he's winning because of "Luck"

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Claims he's a HAM fan, says he's winning because of "Luck"

Exactly.

[3798j]

^

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Claims he's a HAM fan, says he's winning because of "Luck"

Jesus, I never said anything of the sort. Do you get some sort of thrill from fabricating statements?

The timing of his departure from a top team (right before they crashed and burned) to a middling team that then became completely dominant, was extremely fortunate. He is extremely talented and fortunate. Or are those two things not allowed to exist together in your world?

Alonso, who is also extremely talented, has been much less fortunate since Renault. Is this clear enough, or do I need to draw pictures?

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I am stating that he made a decision based on data that neither you nor I had.

Gee, I said the same thing when I stated he was the luckiest (smartest) driver. You've chosen to ignore half of that.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by 3798j

^

[wdb]

Sheesh. You two fight like a couple of F1 teammates.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by wdb

Sheesh. You two fight like a couple of F1 teammates.

[EdM5]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/38335169

Valtteri Bottas: Williams open to Finn joining Mercedes

Williams are prepared to release Valtteri Bottas to become Lewis Hamilton's Mercedes team-mate in 2017.

Mercedes want the Finn, 27, to replace Nico Rosberg, who retired after winning the world title last month.

Deputy team principal Claire Williams told BBC Sport the team would let Bottas leave "if an experienced, credible alternative was available".

Williams suggested Felipe Massa could return, despite retiring at the end of this season.

"I'm delighted to see that a team like Mercedes lists Valtteri as a potential replacement for Nico," Williams said.

"We have always known Valtteri is one of the sport's key talents and are proud that the championship leaders recognise this.

"However, Williams has its own ambitions and we must always ensure we give our team the best opportunity to move forward. Any changes would only be made if Williams remains in a strong position to compete and develop in 2017.

"If we did allow Valtteri to leave, we would only do this if an experienced, credible alternative was available, such as someone like Felipe Massa, for example."

Williams, who finished fifth in the championship in 2016, have rejected Mercedes' first offer for Bottas, but talks are ongoing.

The team are playing hardball with Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff because he is in a difficult position having to find a team-mate for Hamilton when all the leading names are under contract.

However, it is a sensitive situation because Williams use Mercedes engines and want to keep a good relationship with the German manufacturer.

And now Mercedes have expressed an interest, Bottas is keen to take up the opportunity to join a front-running team.

[iamjamen]

First time in this thread and after reading the title and seeing how long it was I knew that it was going to be some keyboard warriors having at it. I hope everyone feels better now.

Back on topic...

Good on you, Nico. Enjoy the life you have created for yourself and plow that hot wife of yours every night.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by iamjamen

First time in this thread and after reading the title and seeing how long it was I knew that it was going to be some keyboard warriors having at it. I hope everyone feels better now.

Back on topic...

Good on you, Nico. Enjoy the life you have created for yourself and plow that hot wife of yours every night.

His father created his life and his racing career. The reason he retired is because he knows that he is not going to beat his teammate again.
One more thing. His wife is not hot at all IMO.