[Matski]

Originally Posted by cc3

... In too many product niches.

... Front wheel drive a sales disaster.

I wish people would provide evidence or explanations when they made statements like this.

[Mdrei]

Scott,

really?....did you look at the monster engines that AMG is placing in the existing lineup? And they announced going even bigger in the future.
But, that's besides the main point. I personally do not care if it's turbo or not, I care about the experience and joy of driving.

The new M4 is gorgeous, but it sounds like a diesel and it cannot touch the 911s. Than you milk my wallet to make it sound good and go individual for better interior, but still no better performance.
The M6 GC cannot keep the power on the street and is a handful in the rain, compared to the RS7. So I decided to get the B6 (4 wheel drive), which is still not on par. All while the RS7 is cheaper.

I know you can provide an explanation for everything (that's your job); but you need to realize that when you do that, you have a problem. People spend money on what they see in the showroom, not on justifications. And BMW has plenty of those lately. MB, Audi sales are much better compared to BMW.

I own/ed an e39 M5, e46 M3, 1M, e65 760, e60 M5, f25 X3 and a B6 on order. The quality of the cars is going down, while the nickel and dimeing picked up drastically. BMW had a good run, while they build on the E platform success. Now the choices are here and they look much better than BMWs; and this is not my opinion, this is written in red on your sales sheet. BMW knew about the lack of sales since mid last year, hence why they tried a squeeze and bloated the inventory in an attempt to keep the #1 crown. Well they lost. Accept it, huddle and come back stronger.

Bottom line, BMW tried to position themselves as better than Porsche and MB, luxury & performance, while dismissing Audi all together. Well it's nowhere now:
luxury = MB is at least 1 if not 2 generations ahead.
performance = Porsche is still the king and AMG pulled out the guns also; all while M stands for Marketing today.

It's not the market, it's the competition Tesla, Caddy, Maserati, Lexus are making a major comeback.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Not well said its absolute nonsense.
Then forthcoming Legislation in regards to emissions forced BMW M to move to Turbo Technology. Which today they are very good at and are continually developing for the next phase of BMW M.

And you missed the point entirely. People are buying the equivalent SUV model from 3er to X3, C-GLC, A4 -Q5 it is the way the market works in North America that is why everybody else are selling SUVs over their original portfolio.
Cayennes are even selling more than the Panamera.
Its the state of the market and I do not for see in any change anytime soon.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The front wheel drive vehicles are not a sales disaster where did you hear this nonsense from?
The 2er Active Tourer and Gran Tourer are the best selling 2er models globally.
They are also responsible for first time BMW vehicle sales.
We see rises for these vehicles every month since launch. The Active Tourer since launch in 2014 achieved its 100,000 unit goal ahead of the equivalent Mercedes-Benz B-Klasse which took two years to reach 100,000 units.

We now manufacture the Active Tourer in China where it has had equal success.
The whole point of the UKL+ is to provide profitability to MINI something which was not successful over previous MINI generations. The money was made by MINIs multiple personalisation options.

The upcoming China Sedan is projected to be a huge success with early clinics already excited and have placed orders for the new car which launches at the end of the year.

Contrary to everybody's opinion because we are not doing what everybody else is doing BMW is not in trouble.
We are in the opening stages of the full refresh of the model line, and more importantly by the time SUV models reach their global high by 2019. The full BMW X line will have been renewed,refreshed and expanded.

Heard it straight from my dealer. They don't like them and they suffer big depreciation. Admire the way you defend the brand but BMW need to start listening. I have had over 45 new BMW's since the 1990's and as a customer I can tell you the eye has been off the ball over the last 2 years. As an example on quality my wife's new Mini has to go back as it has a crankshaft recall and may now need a new engine. Done less than 10,000 miles. The car also has two other quality recalls on it. Never had that in 40 years of motoring

BMW needs a design refresh and more focus on quality interiors

[radiofrequency]

Most posters here have echoed my thoughts. I've had the opportunity to sit in the boardroom when sales go south and the comments made by Kruger are eerily similar to those I have heard over the years in similar situations - enough bullshit to baffle the brains, and just enough bullshit to give the C-Suite time to figure out how to remedy a problem of their own making. My wife and I recently went car shopping, she needs a hatchback, so we looked at the 4 and 5 GT. The interior quality on the 4 GT was so shockingly bad I simply could not believe what I was seeing, the 5 GT, on the other hand looks like a pig, no matter how much lipstick you want to put onto it. She went with an A7, it is a great looking car, she loved the interior and the hatchback has great access for all of her stuff. I was recently a participant in a car show/drive for charity, and was excited to see a new M4, I took the opportunity to have a close up look. I was, once again, shocked at the cheap look and feel of the interior, plus, while the car looked pretty from about 30 feet away, once I got close up all those body creases (don't know a better word to use here) just became a jumble and did not contribute to the aesthetic of the vehicle. Styling, decontenting and the race to turbocharge everything in sight while denying us in the USA of models such as the 135i hatchback just don't seem to make any sense.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by 64-bit

Got to admit, I own a 16 M3 and my next car will not be a BMW, a car that has a base 65K price that does not comes with backup camera! And now even worst for 2017 that has no maintenance included... If they are being cheap on this stuff can u imagine what the will be doing to the actual cars to save money?

That are several options out there today, and if BMW don't open their eyes even BMW fans like me will be walking away.

I'm with you. After 24 BMW's over the years, my M4 will likely be my last. I drive 30k miles a year and while I love my M4, BMW's recent changes to mileage cost, reduced residuals and reduced incentives make it such that the cost is higher than the enjoyment I receive. I ll likely get something cheaper next time and consider a non-BMW product for fun.

[David70]

Originally Posted by faiz

They should give out better residuals and incentives. Last year this time it was amazing and the sales showed.

If I was in charge residuals would be set at where we actually think they will be, raising residuals to gain sales is the same as an incentive that we just don't have to pay for now and instead when the leased car comes back, artificially making the numbers look better today. If you think the car will be worth $30k at the end of the lease and you decide to set it at $35k it's only an accounting function to make the sale today but be hit with added cost later. Then raising incentives or residuals for the point of moving more cars further reduces the true residuals and can be a difficult program to get back off of or to ever raise the lease prices.

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

Off topic. What does the word, "dink", mean?

Long Island qualifier. Lol.

One of my customers called me this - Dual Income No Kids - makes paying for things easier.

While not as bad as BMW overall percentages it does look like the industry/market has slowed down some. First quarter MB sales release, from them -

https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/about...00ccec1e35____

April 01 2016
MERCEDES-BENZ USA REPORTS MARCH SALES of 28,164 UNITS
ATLANTA – Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) today reported March sales of 28,164, which closes the first-quarter at 75,769, down 3% from last year. Smart contributed 479 units, and Vans reported a best-ever March with 3,072, up 29.1% from the same time last year. MBUSA total sales were 31,715 for March.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP

I3's have been cheap to lease for over a year now. There is a great FB group if you are looking for more info.

I love mine!

Make sure to go for either 24 or 30 month lease! Residual drops at 36 months!

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The front wheel drive vehicles are not a sales disaster where did you hear this nonsense from?
The 2er Active Tourer and Gran Tourer are the best selling 2er models globally.
They are also responsible for first time BMW vehicle sales.
We see rises for these vehicles every month since launch. The Active Tourer since launch in 2014 achieved its 100,000 unit goal ahead of the equivalent Mercedes-Benz B-Klasse which took two years to reach 100,000 units.

We now manufacture the Active Tourer in China where it has had equal success.
The whole point of the UKL+ is to provide profitability to MINI something which was not successful over previous MINI generations. The money was made by MINIs multiple personalisation options.

The upcoming China Sedan is projected to be a huge success with early clinics already excited and have placed orders for the new car which launches at the end of the year.

Contrary to everybody's opinion because we are not doing what everybody else is doing BMW is not in trouble.
We are in the opening stages of the full refresh of the model line, and more importantly by the time SUV models reach their global high by 2019. The full BMW X line will have been renewed,refreshed and expanded.

Guess what? Enthusiasts don't care about a single thing you just said! If BMW didn't come out with the M2, I would have moved to Porsche. And I have a feeling once that happened, I would never be back. And even so, it's obvious that BMW cut some really stupid corners in the M2. Non-backlit gauges during the day that are off-white on grey and difficult to read in a performance car is a pretty good example of something that never would have flown back in the day.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Guess what? Enthusiasts don't care about a single thing you just said! If BMW didn't come out with the M2, I would have moved to Porsche. And I have a feeling once that happened, I would never be back. And even so, it's obvious that BMW cut some really stupid corners in the M2. Non-backlit gauges during the day that are off-white on grey and difficult to read in a performance car is a pretty good example of something that never would have flown back in the day.

Guess what? SCOTT was responding to false claim with regards to the sales of the FWD based cars!

I'm not saying that BMW is perfect, but Jesus, this thread is ridiculous. Peoples personal gripes about things do no equal cause and effect across the entire brand!

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by radiofrequency

Most posters here have echoed my thoughts. I've had the opportunity to sit in the boardroom when sales go south and the comments made by Kruger are eerily similar to those I have heard over the years in similar situations - enough bullshit to baffle the brains, and just enough bullshit to give the C-Suite time to figure out how to remedy a problem of their own making. My wife and I recently went car shopping, she needs a hatchback, so we looked at the 4 and 5 GT. The interior quality on the 4 GT was so shockingly bad I simply could not believe what I was seeing, the 5 GT, on the other hand looks like a pig, no matter how much lipstick you want to put onto it. She went with an A7, it is a great looking car, she loved the interior and the hatchback has great access for all of her stuff. I was recently a participant in a car show/drive for charity, and was excited to see a new M4, I took the opportunity to have a close up look. I was, once again, shocked at the cheap look and feel of the interior, plus, while the car looked pretty from about 30 feet away, once I got close up all those body creases (don't know a better word to use here) just became a jumble and did not contribute to the aesthetic of the vehicle. Styling, decontenting and the race to turbocharge everything in sight while denying us in the USA of models such as the 135i hatchback just don't seem to make any sense.

But everybody is saying the exact same thing no matter what boardroom.
Our core sales are declining but our SUV sales are rising in North America.
That is what you are no understanding - sale on sale between the core model and the equivalent SUV shows the decrease for one segment and an increase for another. It is not just BMW but everybody else reflects this.

[///M-Furby]

so with a shortage of 3 series next year, dealerships will claim its because 3 series are in high demand and the cars sells themselves

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Guess what? Enthusiasts don't care about a single thing you just said! If BMW didn't come out with the M2, I would have moved to Porsche. And I have a feeling once that happened, I would never be back. And even so, it's obvious that BMW cut some really stupid corners in the M2. Non-backlit gauges during the day that are off-white on grey and difficult to read in a performance car is a pretty good example of something that never would have flown back in the day.

M2 and Porsche in the same sentence is just to funny.

Please take your money where your mouth is.

Two times the car, at 2 times the price.

[Alfisti]

My issue as a buyer is a) lack of content and high option prices and b) interiors have looked dull and boring for a good 10 years, they really need to address this.

If my wife did not need a badge (she is a lawyer so you know, appearances and all) there's no way we would go BMW. A loaded Kia is a far better buy once into SUV, they all handle like shite anyway and that's what people buy, SUV.

[Eagle1oh7]

Perhaps we can blame the 4GC? See a whole lot of those rolling around SoCal.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

Scott,

really?....did you look at the monster engines that AMG is placing in the existing lineup? And they announced going even bigger in the future.
But, that's besides the main point. I personally do not care if it's turbo or not, I care about the experience and joy of driving.

The new M4 is gorgeous, but it sounds like a diesel and it cannot touch the 911s. Than you milk my wallet to make it sound good and go individual for better interior, but still no better performance.
The M6 GC cannot keep the power on the street and is a handful in the rain, compared to the RS7. So I decided to get the B6 (4 wheel drive), which is still not on par. All while the RS7 is cheaper.

I know you can provide an explanation for everything (that's your job); but you need to realize that when you do that, you have a problem. People spend money on what they see in the showroom, not on justifications. And BMW has plenty of those lately. MB, Audi sales are much better compared to BMW.

I own/ed an e39 M5, e46 M3, 1M, e65 760, e60 M5, f25 X3 and a B6 on order. The quality of the cars is going down, while the nickel and dimeing picked up drastically. BMW had a good run, while they build on the E platform success. Now the choices are here and they look much better than BMWs; and this is not my opinion, this is written in red on your sales sheet. BMW knew about the lack of sales since mid last year, hence why they tried a squeeze and bloated the inventory in an attempt to keep the #1 crown. Well they lost. Accept it, huddle and come back stronger.

Bottom line, BMW tried to position themselves as better than Porsche and MB, luxury & performance, while dismissing Audi all together. Well it's nowhere now:
luxury = MB is at least 1 if not 2 generations ahead.
performance = Porsche is still the king and AMG pulled out the guns also; all while M stands for Marketing today.

It's not the market, it's the competition Tesla, Caddy, Maserati, Lexus are making a major comeback.

Cadillac.
Great that you mention Audi because you don't how deep they are heading for trouble especially now that TDI sales have all but collapsed.
TDI models are needed especially in the US to meet their legislation for CAFE. But the entire groups Schadenfreude has put them at a point where they need to provide a solution. And again Q3,Q5 and Q7 are driving their sales.
Just as GLA,GLC,GLE/Coupe,GLS and G-Wagon are driving Mercedes-Benzes increases.

M never stood for marketing that is term so-called "Enthusiasts" use when they don't understand why are they not doing the same products as company A or why is there no sports car as company B? But refuse to understand their chosen individuality that appeals to the traditional M customer.

Today's competitors are so busy stating its an M killer that they completely lose their originality. They are were so far concerned about matching everything that they bring no individuality or anything new but a perfect imitation.
Sorry but having driven each generation M5 and driven the M3,M4 GTS amongst other new M models my question is how are you disappointed? Because these cars are filled with M brilliance, they are not lacking in anything and I am sure actual owners would agree with me.

M is actually the most innovative Performance line in the segment, they can utilise Carbon Fibre sparingly and have investigated many new developments with the next coming very soon in the Performance PHEV.

In the Chinese market on the eve of the Beijing Autoshow we held the annual BMW M night in an auditorium not just full of media and BMW executives from Munich and China but also enthusiasts who had not one complaint about the brand or its direction.

[Agent11br]

Originally Posted by Kief

...but I've got my eye out on an F-Pace within the next few years if the status quo continues

I'm in the same boat. Just went and built one online last week. The lease on the family SUV goes up next summer. Initially it was Q7 or X5 to replace, after I saw an F-Pace in person that has drastically shifted.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

I guess a busy interior with a bunch of silver bits is considered upscale

Horrible tacked on screen..BMW screen looks like it belongs the way the dash wraps around it

The key to discovering the differences is to sit in an S-Klasse and then jump into the C-Klasse where you can see some elements that are metal in the S-Klasse are metalized plastic in the C-Klasse.

The BMW 7er is finished in actual aluminium and not plastic. We will see this carry over to the next generation of models starting with the 5er and X3.

The BMW monitor is designed to resemble a flat screen TV in a spacious environment.
If you look at BMW against Mercedes dash designs you can see the BMW dash is more flatter on the top surface than the slab fronted dash of the Mercedes cars.

The monitor for the BMW is in the perfect position because it is angled to the driver. BMW also offer main functions as part of the iDrive control interface.
Therefore this helps minimise switchgear and over use of blanking plates found in the Mercedes. BMW also retains either an automatic and manual transmission on the console rather than a US style stalk behind the wheel.

[bavarian19]

Originally Posted by RVS

People have too much stigma against BMW on this forum. If you don't like the current line up then get something else lol. Stop complaining.

I think that is the point. People have been buying other cars. Myself included.

I would like to buy a good 3 series, but refuse to pay 50k+ for a watered down, neutered version of what the 3 series used to be. I will not be one to buy a BMW just because of the roundel.

I have also done what most people on this board have not. I have been to the BMW Welt, done the BMW Ring Taxi @ the Nurburgring. I was a real big BMW enthusiast, right up until their cars became uninspired and helplessly expensive once you add basic luxury features other vehicles do in the $35k range.

[bavarian19]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

But everybody is saying the exact same thing no matter what boardroom.
Our core sales are declining but our SUV sales are rising in North America.
That is what you are no understanding - sale on sale between the core model and the equivalent SUV shows the decrease for one segment and an increase for another. It is not just BMW but everybody else reflects this.

But please don't continue to do what has already been done. I can find the link of the BMW exec's stating the sports car (Z4) industry is dead. BMW openly moved it upmarket, and people decided not to pay 2x for the same product.


It is almost as if an olympic sprinter suddenly changed into rain boots and blamed the track for decrease in performance. At some point, you do need to look inwards as to what your role was in the decline.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

helplessly expensive once you add basic luxury features other vehicles do in the $35k range.

Again this. Mid tier brands are going to eat into BMW's m,arket because BMW is pricing content so damned high. Park assist cameras, beepers, power trunk and nav should not total $7K in options, these are features families need and use with possible exception of NAV.

[WWM3]

Does this mean the apologists who always confront criticisms of the three with "sales are up" will finally shut up?

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

M2 and Porsche in the same sentence is just to funny.

Please take your money where your mouth is.

Two times the car, at 2 times the price.

What are you talking about? The Cayman is $5k cheaper than my M2 stickers at. Cayman S is only $6k more. I drove both; Cayman has better steering and build quality, M2 has the better engine. Hate that you can't really tune the Cayman for more power. DCT for the M2 is better on track than the PDK in the Cayman. I love the involved drive of the Cayman S but bottom line is that it's just too slow for me in a straight line, and lap times are barely any faster than the M2.

Bought the M2, putting my money where my mouth is.