[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Max obviously was handed the race. I was just referencing how the Belgians keep trying to claim him lol. Max got mad and pointed to his flag on his car. "im dutch!"... yet they still stalk him lol. Like a crazy ex or something.

Your statement is based on your dreams ..

[TouringM3]

Going in to Abu Dhabi both Lewis and Max were undoubtedly deserving world champions. It was one hell of an exciting year and I was completely riveted throughout.

I'm a Lewis fan for sure. This does not mean I am anti-Max.


Had the race been decided as an actual race, with equal application of the rules and regs i'd be stoked for Max. It's just not what happened.

Since we all know what transpired, I'll put it in ball sports terminology:
This was equivalent to seeing a soccer match eating in to stoppage time, with a player writhing on the field while one team is ahead by a goal .... and the referees decide to delete the scoreboard and force penalty kicks to decide the winner.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by EnVe46

While Im no track rat I do understand the dynamics quite a bit... If you think HAM was going to be able to brake as hard and as late as VER could, you clearly don't belong in this debate. Moreover, the fact that HAM knew he couldn't tells you a bit more about it.

VER had a hell of a year and it was extremely entertaining all season. That said, he didn't win this race which led to the championship by his ability. Luck was on his side. There was no pit advantage RB did that yielded these results. The more and more Im reading into it and looking at it from a nonbiased position, Im starting to really see the arguments several are making against the decision MASI made. At the end of the day, the results are the results, nothing can change them. HAM deserved the win based off this races performance, if you can't see that you're blinded by bias/hate. Sounds familiar and consistent for 2021...........

So, if I'm reading paragraph 1 correctly, even in VER's incredible T5 pass of HAM, HAM's understanding of the braking limitations of his worn hard tires is the highlight?!

fellas... it was a strong move.

HAM's response in that moment wasn't under braking anyways. It was a delay in the initial phase of the corner so that he didn't end up alongside VER mid corner and blocked from a strong exit.

Agreed Red Bull didn't make a remarkable final pit call. That one was easy, no pressure whatsoever, thanks to Merc.

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by M2CS

well, on that note I'll now select hibernation mode until next season…I will say however that it was a great race until finally 7ewis was defeated by Bernd Maylander.

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=///M Power-Belgium;28359825]Your statement is based on your dreams ..


Bye Toto

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

What happened in quali then? Why was the Merc PU so slow in the hands of Bottas? Oh right, none of that supports your conspiracies. Lewis made Max look like a fool all Sunday.. The director had to hand him a dirty trophy lol. I would be embarrassed to take something i didn't earn.

Lewis vs Bottas: Lewis has the faster car/engine...we all know that. Do you?


In bold: Max made Lewis look like a unexperienced fool at the last lap.....

Lewis is only fast now in his own Mercedes. Put him in a Williams and it's really game over for Lewis. Period.








Cheers
Robin

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=StatenEye;28359877]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The hate is strong with you, still so curious as to why? hmmm. hahaha

You're probably the most miserable granny on Statan, while everyone else is celebrating ooh you bad loser.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by M2CS

The intention of 48.12 is to get ALL lapped cars pass the safety car, not just some of them. Moreover, the rule state the safety car will end on the following lap, not the same lap. So as you can tell, the rules were broken. Now you're using hindsight to say Mercedes had opportunity to pit. How can Mercedes have known 48.12 was going to be broken or overruled? It has never been modified before and Masi himself specifically pointed out that rule last year at the Nurburgring GP. Understand that if the rule is not broken and HAM pits, Mercedes would have just handed Max the title on a silver platter.

The rule does not say "ALL", it says "ANY"

Article 48.12:

“If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message ‘lapped cars may now overtake’ has been sent to all competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

I looked up what ANY vs ALL means in terms of legal definitions:

"All" means every one of the available choices. "Any" means some subset of the available choices. Depending on context, it may mean just one, or it could mean that more than one is allowed.

article 15.3 gives the race director full control of the safety car: when it goes out and when it comes in. Massi did not break any rules. The stewards (a panel of judges) also deemed this fine. Massi did what he could to give the teams what they wanted.... the race ending green.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Lewis has won in multiple cars btw. He trounced Max all Sunday who was in a faster car... see the quali lol. A crash and some very sneaky work by the director put Max with fresh tires on Lewis' rear... Max still had trouble lmao. Enjoy the fake victory.

You(as in you) could say it was a fake victory, but what about Silverstone and the whole season? Max would've been champion a few GPs ago already if FIA/Merc weren't so inconsistent and cheaterish(is that a word lol) Anyway. Agree to disagree?

Thanks for letting 'ME' only celebrate Max's worldchampionship because I'm a Dutchman? .

Anyway. Have a good night I'm going to watch Netflix with the missus!

Cheers
Robin

[EnVe46]

There's a vast difference in skill in HAM vs the rest of the field, VER included. Hamilton can be the fastest on track while maintaining good tire wear. To me, that shows just how much better he is. VER is very aggressive and eager and that has won him the championship this year. But this last race showed with HAM can do, worse tires and still pulling away. Certainly the set up of the car has a major factor there as well, but ultimately tire degradation is the drivers thing to manage mid race.

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=StatenEye;28359944]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You didnt win.. Max did, only the Dutch can call themselves winners. The rest are bandwagoners. He only drives for 1 country.

That's like saying Japanese who support Barcelona footie team shouldn't celebrate when Barcelona win hmm well..you do say that is really you in your avatar, you poor sad person.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Actually, it does 3:37, article 15.3 gives the Race Director overriding authority over the safety car and does, in fact, supersede 48.12/13.

And you only need a moment of honest reflection to realize why, ultimately, the race director would have complete authority over the timing of safety car deployment and withdrawal.

Unnecessary safety car laps that preclude a racing finish to any race, for example.

Imagine if in Abu Dhabi HAM had pitted for softs and come out 2nd behind VER on worn hards -- a very possible race ending scenario -- and the race director decided not to exercise 15.3 and go racing when they could have. Because he prefers 48.12/.13, so the safety car takes one more lap around a perfectly safe, green course to end the race and WDC.

Please. HAM fans would be even more apoplectic.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by EnVe46

There's a vast difference in skill in HAM vs the rest of the field, VER included. Hamilton can be the fastest on track while maintaining good tire wear. To me, that shows just how much better he is. VER is very aggressive and eager and that has won him the championship this year. But this last race showed with HAM can do, worse tires and still pulling away. Certainly the set up of the car has a major factor there as well, but ultimately tire degradation is the drivers thing to manage mid race.

That's one thing I had a thought about it before the entire SC shenanigan.
Max gambled and pitted under VSC for fresher Hard tires, was able to close the gap from about 16 secs to 12 secs. (A bit vague on the actual gap, but was approx that range).

Although backmarkers was in play, but the gap sort of stabilized around 10-12 secs and the tire deg between new and used Hards arn't as much as anticipated.

[EnVe46]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

So, if I'm reading paragraph 1 correctly, even in VER's incredible T5 pass of HAM, HAM's understanding of the braking limitations of his worn hard tires is the highlight?!

fellas... it was a strong move.

HAM's response in that moment wasn't under braking anyways. It was a delay in the initial phase of the corner so that he didn't end up alongside VER mid corner and blocked from a strong exit.

Agreed Red Bull didn't make a remarkable final pit call. That one was easy, no pressure whatsoever, thanks to Merc.

VER has out-braked HAM in several races this year which has resulted in wins. But criticizing this specific instance is an oversight. Hes on worn, cold HARD tires. Would you agree that HAM had zero chance of outhandling/braking VER? IF not, then I guess you must think HAM is that great to overcome obvious disadvantages. VER is very aggressive and it was a very strong move, that's consistent with a lot of what he's done all season. I love seeing it as it makes for great racing, even when Im not a fan of his. But this is also why HAM has repeatedly said he's "crazy" or "wreckless".

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Enjoy the fake victory.

Acrimony. It's over. Deal with it.

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Verstappen said in 2015: "I actually only lived in Belgium to sleep, but during the day I went to the Netherlands and had my friends there too. I was raised as a Dutch person and that's how I feel." He officially chose solely the Dutch nationality when he came of age.

Agreed!
Belgium is the only person in the world pretending Max is Belgian.

As I've pointed out before. It doesn't matter where you're born or where you've lived. If you speak like a Dutch guy (with a very distinctive Dutch Limburg accent no less), feel Dutch and show typical Dutch behaviour (blunt, direct, arrogant)..you must be Dutch.

The (Dutch) orange army is also proudly presenting the colour (orange) of the Dutch Royal Family. They would never ever support some Belgian dude.

Max was on the Abu Dhabi podium donning a Dutch flag and enjoying the Dutch national anthem. His country (Netherlands) collectively went euphoric for him .

So B can you please stop spreading this ridiculous crap that Max is Belgian for once and for all?
It's especially pathetic because the Belgians usually hate our Dutch guts.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by EnVe46

VER has out-braked HAM in several races this year which has resulted in wins. But criticizing this specific instance is an oversight. Hes on worn, cold HARD tires. Would you agree that HAM had zero chance of outhandling/braking VER? IF not, then I guess you must think HAM is that great to overcome obvious disadvantages. VER is very aggressive and it was a very strong move, that's consistent with a lot of what he's done all season. I love seeing it as it makes for great racing, even when Im not a fan of his. But this is also why HAM has repeatedly said he's "crazy" or "wreckless".

Not criticizing HAM... no way. It was a great move by VER and I don't know when HAM even realized VER had made the move. My guess is mid-corner when he ended up alongside him. Had HAM known he was coming/there, I think he would have set up differently for corner exit. That's all I'm saying.

HAM is the most well-rounded, skilled driver I've ever seen, and he's absolutely mastered the current formula, so we're on the same page as far as my perspective. I'd be making all of the same arguments if the roles were reversed.

My arguments are aimed at the suggestions a. they shouldn't have gone racing, b. whoever won that final exchange is a delegitimate WDC. Just think both viewpoints are hugely flawed, and in most cases, dishonest from those who promote them. Fail the "if the shoe was on the other foot" test.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

How many times does he have to say it lol! Which flag is on his car?

https://www.google.com/search?q=max+...active&ssui=on

First , you have no idea why the Dutch flag is on his car ..
MAX lived and was born 14 miles from my home here in Belgium !
I met MAX here in Belgium ,saw him driving here and it looked supernatural .

That's why I'm *1000 % MAX fan !
Actually you know nothing , zero about MAX !
What you do know is : MAX is the new 2021 F1 World Champion ..That's about it !
I already said back in January that HAM would sink like a brick in the water ..
I said also : Time for a change !
HAM pulled the perfect last race, his Rocket Warp-Speed was 55 laps untouchable ..
HAM requested to pit just like MAX did , but it was denied by Toto Wolff .
In other words : HAM is/was taken down by his own team boss Toto Wolff !
Funny thing is , that he knows it ! And that's why he's furious !

Advice : Put your microphone down...
=> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2015/0...ian-not-dutch/

[M Hybrid V8]

I doubt Hamilton is upset with Toto. Had Toto allowed Lewis to pit only for Masi to actually follow his own rules, that decision would be akin to forfeiting the race and championship to Redbull. To my knowledge, Masi has never deviated from normal safety car guidelines before so Toto had no reason to think those guidelines would be altered on Sunday. As it stands, Toto made the right call and has no blame for Masi's decision making. Again, Redbull also didn't know if the race was going to end behind the safety car as the rules suggested. They simply had nothing to lose by pitting and begging for an advantage.

[Humdizzle]

Nobody knew if the race would end under safety car or not. RB still made the gamble. MB did not for obvious reasons as it was extremely risky for them.

I think even if they knew the race would be restarted they would have opted to keep HAM in front on older tires. Trying to overtake max in this scenario, with how aggressive he is, would have been extremely risky. contact either puts lewis out, max out, or both of them out. and max wins 2/3 scenarios here.

[EnVe46]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Not criticizing HAM... no way. It was a great move by VER and I don't know when HAM even realized VER had made the move. My guess is mid-corner when he ended up alongside him. Had HAM known he was coming/there, I think he would have set up differently for corner exit. That's all I'm saying.

HAM is the most well-rounded, skilled driver I've ever seen, and he's absolutely mastered the current formula, so we're on the same page as far as my perspective. I'd be making all of the same arguments if the roles were reversed.

My arguments are aimed at the suggestions a. they shouldn't have gone racing, b. whoever won that final exchange is a delegitimate WDC. Just think both viewpoints are hugely flawed, and in most cases, dishonest from those who promote them. Fail the "if the shoe was on the other foot" test.

Ok I must have misunderstood your view...

As a HAM fan, Im really doing my best to look at it from both angles. Whatever decision was made, fans on both sides would have their hands up. But as I mentioned before, the inconsistency in the way the rules have been applied all year and this race is what makes for a shit show. That in itself is the major problem here.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by EdM5

Belgium is the only person in the world pretending Max is Belgian.

In my book Max is definitely a Dutch F1 driver as he chose to drive under the Dutch flag and, more importantly, considers himself Dutch. Period.

More in general, for me the nationality of a sportsperson is irrelevant. I can root for sportspersons and sports teams from all places on the face of the planet. The difference with Sir Lewis Hamilton: Hamilton, who has the British nationality, is proud of his Grenadian roots (Caribbean - father's family - see for example here). And that's graceful. We are all citizens of the world.

Just to get the facts straight. Max Verstappen has two nationalities: Belgian and Dutch. He was born in Belgium. His Dutch father Jos Verstappen and Belgian mother Sophie Kumpen went through a messy divorce, and even the nationality of Max happened to be a moot point between the couple. His mother claimed that her son was Belgian and not allowed to claim to be Dutch until he was 18 (he only had a Belgian ID). His father firmly disputed that claim of his ex-wife saying that Max was "more Dutch than Belgian". Oh dear...

2015 - see here
"Max Verstappen is Belgian says his mother
5 April 2015
The Toro Rosso rookie, now making waves as the youngest ever driver and points-scorer in F1 history, is the son of former grand prix star Jos Verstappen.
Jos is Dutch, and Max now competes with a Dutch racing licence. But the youngster was, in fact, born in Belgium, the native country of his mother Sophie Kumpen.
Kumpen is a famous female kart star, who fell out badly with Jos some years ago. Their dispute involved the police and went all the way to court, with Jos Verstappen said to have been threatened with jail at one point for alleged harassment and assault.
Now, Kumpen has told Het Laatste Nieuws, a Dutch-language Belgian newspaper, that her son is in fact Belgian.
“The only identification that Max has is Belgian,” she claimed. He turns 18 on September 30, and on that date, and not before, he can opt for Dutch nationality. In the meantime, he is Belgian and nothing else.”

2015 - see here
"Verstappen more Dutch than Belgian claims father
11 April 2015
Max Verstappen’s father has hit back at claims by his ex-wife that the 17-year-old is really Belgian, and not Dutch.
The issue hit the headlines a week ago, when the Toro Rosso rookie’s mother Sophie Kumpen said the Belgian-born driver cannot apply for Dutch nationality until he turns 18 in September.
“In the meantime, he is Belgian and nothing else,” said Kumpen, who in the past has accused Max’s father Jos, a former grand prix driver and Dutchman, of assault and harassment.
Verstappen, 43, told the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf: “Everyone wants a piece of Max. On the one hand it is a nice compliment to him. He is doing very well.”
“So in the eyes of the Belgian media, suddenly Max is Belgian. But until a few months ago hardly anything was said about him in Belgium and now suddenly they are claiming him as theirs.
“The situation,” Jos added, “is that Max has both nationalities, as Sophie and I were married at the time he was born.”
“But as he races with a Dutch licence, he is more Dutch than Belgium. He feels that too. When he is 18 and will choose, it will be for the Dutch nationality,” Verstappen revealed."