[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Good news. The safety and accessibility for pedestrians.

Bad news. EV owners who lives in a home without a garage or driveway and installed a level 2 charger cannot use it legally.

''Oh honey, have you seen this... I've had to cancel the ordered EV ''

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by vertigyn

I don't know what the other brands offer for on the go charging - BUT - the Tesla Supercharging network is pretty good. The Superchargers are capable of refilling a Tesla battery very quickly. Most of our charging stops were for 15-20 minutes. Park the car, plug it in, take the kids to the bathroom, pick out candy/drinks or get a coffee, go back to the car and ready to go. Gas stops are capable of being quicker, no doubt. But with kids? Hardly any difference in stop time for us.

Side benefit - no gas stations. My wife has come to despise gas stations. For normal use - plug the car in every night once you are home, and you are ready with a full 'tank' every day. Never any worries of low gas or having to go to a station and touch that filthy pump (haha - just kidding....but kind of not from my wife's perspective).

With the M3...gas trips are just another good excuse to go out for a drive!

Tampa Bay. Not really a cold climate there and you probably do not see the effects of cold weather on range and recharging speed. So if you want to qualify time equity at fuel stops, fine, but most EV have a best range of 300 miles and the (charging etiquette) protocol for DCFC of EV is stop at 80% of battery capacity. ICEV recharge to 100% in 5 minutes and most ICEV have 400 miles of range regardless of the ambient temperature. In cold temps that's 15% reduction in range due to cold temps so 300 x .85 = 255. Then only charge to 80% of the cold weather range and the math works out to 204 miles, vs. ICEV at 400 miles of range recovery in 5 minutes and all the heat you want in winter. And 15% cold-range reduction is being generous.

And then what is interesting is a lot of EV owners say they stop every hour and a half anyway to take a driving break, so they just top off the battery while they stretch and get blood back in their buttocks, i.e. no different than the stopping frequency they practiced with their gas cars back in the ICE(V) age. Yet confusingly, EV tout the driver assist tech of Tesla's Autopilot, Ford's Blue Cruise, and GM's Super Cruise, all meant to reduce the stress and exhaustion of actually having to drive the vehicle. These automated driver assistants would seem to indicate EV are better suited than old-tech ICEV for long-distance road tripping with less stopping to refresh.

And, are public EV charging handles any less dirty than gas pump nozzles? I've never understood that argument.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Tampa Bay. Not really a cold climate there and you probably do not see the effects of cold weather on range and recharging speed. So if you want to qualify time equity at fuel stops, fine, but most EV have a best range of 300 miles and the protocol for DCFC of EV is stop at 80% of battery capacity. ICEV recharge to 100% in 5 minutes and most ICEV have 400 miles of range regardless of the ambient temperature. In cold temps that's 15% reduction in range due to cold temps so 300 x .85 = 255. Then only charge to 80% of the cold weather range and the math works out to 204 miles, vs. ICEV at 400 miles of range recovery in 5 minutes and all the heat you want in winter. And 15% cold-range reduction is being generous.

And then what is interesting is a lot of EV owners say they stop every hour and a half anyway to take a driving break, so they just top off the battery while they stretch and get blood back in their buttocks, i.e. no different than the stopping frequency they practiced with their gas cars back in the ICE(V) age. Yet confusingly, EV tout the driver assist tech of Tesla's Autopilot, Ford's Blue Cruise, and GM's Super Cruise, all meant to reduce the stress and exhaustion of actually having to drive the vehicle. These automated driver assistants would seem to indicate EV are better suited than old-tech ICEV for long-distance road tripping with less stopping to refresh.

And, are public EV charging handles any less dirty than gas pump nozzles? I've never understood that argument.

The answer is simple. You don’t own one so you simply cannot understand.

I stop about 4 times in a 12 hours drive to NC. That’s not once an hour, not sure where you pulled that number from.

Driving assist like adaptive cruise and lane keep 100% make long drives easier. Doesn’t change your ass or back hurting, just less exhausting overall. Just like the joy of not having to go to a gas station when at home it’s not something that can be explained or understood with just logic and reason. It must be experienced.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

That's why most manufacturers making EVs have agreed to move future cars to NACS. I have none of the issues you are talking about with my Tesla. Just went from FL to NC and it was cold as fuck in NC (for a Floridian) and I had no issues at all. My father in law who is an EV hater was shocked when we would stop to charge and go inside the Wawa to use the bathroom, get a drink and by the time we came back out we were ready to go. A total of like 4 stops like that.

Once in NC no noticeable range issues with the cold. I charge at home and was able to make it to all the places we go without issue.

Then what happens with the partially built-out (Government subsidized) CCS network when all manufacturers switch to NACS? The Tesla network can't charge every EV on the road.

And as you well know, better than Tesla's charger availability is the integration of Tesla's navigation and the charging infrastructure. The CCS networks do not have this advantage and probably never will.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Then what happens with the partially built-out (Government subsidized) CCS network when all manufacturers switch to NACS? The Tesla network can't charge every EV on the road.

And as you well know, better than Tesla's charger availability is the integration of Tesla's navigation and the charging infrastructure. The CCS networks do not have this advantage and probably never will.

They can switch to NACS. They can use adapters like many none teslas do now to use the Tesla network. Not sure why this is so complicated. If these are things that make you lose sleep at night an EV is not for you. Just like maintenance on an exotic keeps me up at night and I would not own one.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

The answer is simple. You don’t own one so you simply cannot understand.

I stop about 4 times in a 12 hours drive to NC. That’s not once an hour, not sure where you pulled that number from.

Driving assist like adaptive cruise and lane keep 100% make long drives easier. Doesn’t change your ass or back hurting, just less exhausting overall. Just like the joy of not having to go to a gas station when at home it’s not something that can be explained or understood with just logic and reason. It must be experienced.

Yeah, I get that over at the MME forum a lot, I don't own one so "I simply can't understand". LOL. My counter to that is I owned an electric garden tractor made by General Electric back in the early 1970's, so really, I do understand the charge at home paradigm, and I understood it 40 years ago.

I said hour and one-half (1-1/2), which seems to be what Mach E owners practice based on the hundreds of posts I've read over the past 16 months or so. Maybe unlike most, I buy cars using logic and reason. Just blindly buying an EV and hoping for the best that I will eventually like it is less adult-like behavior than I normally practice.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, I get that over at the MME forum a lot, I'd don't own one so "I simply can't understand". LOL. My counter to that is I owned an electric garden tractor made by General Electric back in the early 1970's, so really, I do understand the charge at home paradigm, and I understood it 40 years ago.

I said hour and one-half (1-1/2), which seems to be what Mach E owners practice based on the hundreds of posts I've read over the past 16 months or so. Maybe unlike most, I buy cars using logic and reason. Just blindly buying an EV and hoping for the best that I will eventually like it is less adult-like behavior than I normally practice.

Believe it or not I don’t care if you buy an EV or not. There are many intangible things that cannot be explained with logic and reason. Luckily for you I don’t see ICE going anywhere anytime soon so you’re good to go.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

They can switch to NACS. They can use adapters like many none teslas do now to use the Tesla network. Not sure why this is so complicated. If these are things that make you lose sleep at night an EV is not for you. Just like maintenance on an exotic keeps me up at night and I would not own one.

I don't lose sleep over it at all, I just am not yet convinced of any benefit an EV would give me over ICEV. I don't see a cost savings, I don't see a charging convenience benefit (and when I drove 40,000 miles a year, I used to fill up twice a week - it's just 5 minutes on the way home or to work), and I do see a range deterrent.

I'd like to have an EV for the engineering curiosity of it, but at this stage in my life it's not worth the depreciation hit. I will be soon doing more road trips and EV just are not good for such activity. Having to constantly plan around charging availability and calculate and plan, and weather affects, and plan, and contingency plan, blah blah, blah. I like to drive to relax not worry about fuel availability.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Believe it or not I don’t care if you buy an EV or not. There are many intangible things that cannot be explained with logic and reason. Luckily for you I don’t see ICE going anywhere anytime soon so you’re good to go.

I never thought you did. It's all good.

[NSXR]

I wouldn't mind having an EV for my daily commute/highway car, I'm just always worried about the battery tech. It's evolving so fast, and I'm not sure the vehicles are designed to be updated when newer tech comes out.

[M5Rick]

Taycan EV recall (again) as it may catch fire..

When he informed his car and house insurance company about the letter they both declined to insure his car and house.
Even an expert can't advise what he does if he can't get insurance and if owners don't tell the insurance companies about the letter then should the worst happen to house or car or both then they'd refer to the small print about informing them on specific things like this that affect the car and the owner could face a battle for compensation.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Taycan EV recall (again) as it may catch fire..

When he informed his car and house insurance company about the letter they both declined to insure his car and house.
Even an expert can't advise what he does if he can't get insurance and if owners don't tell the insurance companies about the letter then should the worst happen to house or car or both then they'd refer to the small print about informing them on specific things like this that affect the car and the owner could face a battle for compensation.

All I can say is, Yikes!

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

All I can say is, Yikes!

What of other EV makes that have possibly received similar letters, if it affects this progressive make then maybe owners of the others can come clean and spill the beans.

[vertigyn]

We bought our Tesla MYP as an experiment for our family. We replaced a long line of Jeep Grand Cherokees that we had owned. We figured if it worked out - great. If it didn’t - move on and go back to ICE. We did install a level 2 charger at our home.

We do live in warm climate (FL). We do have a good network of superchargers around us. We drive around town small trips taking the kids where they need to go. We commute for work/church 3-5 days week with round trips of 50-75 miles per trip. We do maybe 3-4 road trips a year sub 4 hours of driving and maybe 1 big trip further north with 8-10 hours driving.

For our use case, the Tesla was a resounding success. For normal life, gas stations don’t exist nor do public charging stations. The car charges at home or at the hotel we end up at.

We did conclude, though, that we prefer an ICEV for longer trips. Until the charging network grows - small towns just aren’t an option and those are often the most fun places to explore. We are fortunate enough to be able to afford multiple cars - so we have ICEV available for those trips.

Would I only own an EV? Probably not. Is it a great addition to the household and the primary car used for daily life? Yes.

I will add - the new M3 driving assistance system is very nice. The Tesla FSD is ok but never instilled trust for me. The BMW system is actually very nice and worked very well on our trip home with the car. So ICEV are just as “assisted” as EV cars it seems. So equal grounds there.

I don’t have an opinion one way or the other being better - I just know we’ve had a very positive EV experience and would buy another one when we decide the Tesla has aged out of our preferred vehicle age.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

most EV have a best range of 300 miles and the protocol for DCFC of EV is stop at 80% of battery capacity.

That's not accurate.
There is no such "protocol".
You can charge up to whaterver % level your heard desires, including 100% for longer trips.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And then what is interesting is a lot of EV owners say they stop every hour and a half anyway to take a driving break

That's an exegeration.
There may be some old people need to stop for potty breaks every 60-90 minutes, but for the rest of us the distance of continuous driving is limited by common sense, not vehicle range.

Basically, I don't drive anywhere I could get faster by flying, which practically means no further than 4-5 hours of driving (250-350 miles) one way / per day. So, I might drive to Boston or DC from NYC, but not much further. And I will probably make one (1) stop along the way in either ///M3 or TM3, even though either one could make it the distance without stopping.

Beyond that you could not pay me enough to drive either ICE or an EV - I'm flying, baby!

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But do any extended trip that requires on-the-road refueling the cost of electrons and time to get them into the battery is just not worth it to most people.

That is accurate, and driven by the fact that lack of competition in EV chargers has motivated Tesla (and others) to jack up the commerical L3 chargers' electricity prices to near-parity with gasoline on per-mile basis.

That parity is not a coincidence - it's the direct result of Tesla, EVGO, ChargePoint and others maximizing their profit margins in abscense of healthy competition among EV network providers. Something that will be alleviated as more L2/L3 chargers come online in the future.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yet confusingly, EV tout the driver assist tech of Tesla's Autopilot, Ford's Blue Cruise, and GM's Super Cruise, all meant to reduce the stress and exhaustion of actually having to drive the vehicle.

They do, but not significantly more or less than the ADAS features do in ICE cars (adaptive cruise control + lane centering).
Most of the "AutoPilot" and "Fake Self Driving" claims are sale-speak BS to sell cars. FSD claims to be able to do more, and I periodically try it out whenever "free trial" is enabled, but it fails far too often and far too catastrophically to qualify as a "stress reducer".

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And, are public EV charging handles any less dirty than gas pump nozzles? I've never understood that argument.

Not really.
That particular argument is non-sensical.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Then what happens with the partially built-out (Government subsidized) CCS network when all manufacturers switch to NACS?

One word - Adopters.
Competition improves the breed - the more charging (or gas) networks - the marrier, and the lower the on-the-go electricity prices!

Originally Posted by NSXR

I wouldn't mind having an EV for my daily commute/highway car, I'm just always worried about the battery tech. It's evolving so fast, and I'm not sure the vehicles are designed to be updated when newer tech comes out.

One word - Lease!
Shift depreciation worry onto the OEM, and just enjoy the ride knowing you can ditch it at the end of the lease term. Or sooner, via SwapALease, or similar.
BTW, battery tech really hasn't evolved all that much over the past decade. Everyone is still using LiOn batteries, with slightly cheaper chemistry mixes coming on the market driving the overall cost down over time. There really isn't a battery breakthrough coming in the immediate future (next few years), so no point in waiting.
https://www.swapalease.com/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

That's not accurate.
There is no such "protocol".
You can charge up to whaterver % level your heard desires, including 100% for longer trips.



That's an exegeration.
There may be some old people need to stop for potty breaks every 60-90 minutes, but for the rest of us the distance of continuous driving is limited by common sense, not vehicle range.

Basically, I don't drive anywhere I could get faster by flying, which practically means no further than 4-5 hours of driving (250-350 miles) one way / per day. So, I might drive to Boston or DC from NYC, but not much further. And I will probably make one (1) stop along the way in either ///M3 or TM3, even though either one could make it the distance without stopping.

Beyond that you could not pay me enough to drive either ICE or an EV - I'm flying, baby!



That is accurate, and driven by the fact that lack of competition in EV chargers has motivated Tesla (and others) to jack up the commerical L3 chargers' electricity prices to near-parity with gasoline on per-mile basis.

That parity is not a coincidence - it's the direct result of Tesla, EVGO, ChargePoint and others maximizing their profit margins in abscense of healthy competition among EV network providers. Something that will be alleviated as more L2/L3 chargers come online in the future.



They do, but not significantly more or less than the ADAS features do in ICE cars (adaptive cruise control + lane centering).
Most of the "AutoPilot" and "Fake Self Driving" claims are sale-speak BS to sell cars. FSD claims to be able to do more, and I periodically try it out whenever "free trial" is enabled, but it fails far too often and far too catastrophically to qualify as a "stress reducer".



Not really.
That particular argument is non-sensical.



One word - Adopters.
Competition improves the breed - the more charging (or gas) networks - the marrier, and the lower the on-the-go electricity prices!



One word - Lease!
Shift depreciation worry onto the OEM, and just enjoy the ride knowing you can ditch it at the end of the lease term. Or sooner, via SwapALease, or similar.
BTW, battery tech really hasn't evolved all that much over the past decade. Everyone is still using LiOn batteries, with slightly cheaper chemistry mixes coming on the market driving the overall cost down over time. There really isn't a battery breakthrough coming in the immediate future (next few years), so no point in waiting.
https://www.swapalease.com/

Read EV forums and there is an implied "charging etiquette" to not charge over 80% because the charging time curve slows greatly past 80%. I've read hundreds of posts on that very topic. Plus the time increase from 80% to 100% adds significant time to the charging event. Start with a cold battery at below 10% SOC and time requirement is even worse. Great that you fly, but a lot of people can't afford to fly their family of four somewhere.

I think your envisioned cost model of EV charging stations via competition is inaccurate. Utility rates are highly regulated at local area level because utility companies are basically monopolies, so any charging company is stuck with the same industrial power rates as their competitors. So, the cost reduction at the delivered kWh has to come from the cost to install and operate the infrastructure. Adding amenities to make the charge wait times more pleasurable is antithetical to delivered kWh pricing. Also, it makes absolutely no business sense to "make" enroute EV charging on a cost parity of ICEV as that would delay adoption of EV by the ICEV market. People will flock to buying a cheaper better product, making it more expensive or as expensive as the current technology makes ZERO sense. On-the-road delivery of electrons is expensive as gasoline on a per-mile basis because the infrastructure costs more to build and operate and the electricity is not cheap.

[M5Rick]

Lease EV? Who's going to buy a used EV when lease is up as the used ones pile up more and more on forecourts, more people are realising it's a spent force and it's why Tesla's boss is getting edgy by the minute about seemingly everything.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I hang out on the Mustang Mach E forum to really understand how EV owners interface with their MMEs. Just yesterday a member posted about his round trip from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to drop his wife off at Hopkins airport (not sure why she didn't fly out of Pittsburgh). It was a 152-mile one-way trip. He posted the fueling stats and showed that driving the MME was the same fuel cost as driving an ICEV at 25 MPG on regular fuel at $3.30/gal.

It was his first road trip in the MME, so he played with the on-the-road charging infrastructure and used both a Tesla network station (MME have an adapter for Tesla) and a non-Tesla CCA charging station. His overall round trip was 359 miles for a fuel cost of $37, which included a 100% SOC from home using $0.09 kWh residential electrical rate (the internet says Pittsburgh avg. rate is $0.20). Do all the math and that comes out to $0.15 per-mile for fuel cost. My E90 at 27 MPG and requiring $4.00 premium would do the same trip at $0.15 per-mile and not need to refuel mid-trip. The OP of that story spent over an hour at two recharging points to refuel; my E90 would have required just 5 minutes to fuel up at the start of the trip.

This is where I see EV not making sense to the majority of the market. It's great if you can charge at home and stay local with the use case. But do any extended trip that requires on-the-road refueling the cost of electrons and time to get them into the battery is just not worth it to most people. Add in that the majority of EVs cost more to buy than their ICEV equivalent, most of the market just doesn't see the advantage of adopting EV.

ive done a few small road trips in my EV9, with a few public charger stops, and over the course of the 2900 miles ive put on it in the last 3 months, ive spent $96 charging at home and at public chargers. (My home charger keeps track of what i spend at home + if i use the same brand public chargers which tend to be cheaper than the other options)

Now, here in Colorado, we do have quite a few options for chargers, so I can pick the cheaper charger when I'm out and about. (for example, the Tesla charger is about double the cost of the chargers i use.)

It can definitely be a lot cheaper than ICE, but will depend on your location.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I wouldn't mind having an EV for my daily commute/highway car, I'm just always worried about the battery tech. It's evolving so fast, and I'm not sure the vehicles are designed to be updated when newer tech comes out.

i would only lease an EV right now. Tech is changing quickly in them, and in a couple years, you'll be behind the times.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

i would only lease an EV right now. Tech is changing quickly in them, and in a couple years, you'll be behind the times.

100%. Our Ioniq is leased right now, couldn't imagine buying an EV in this current age of technology progression. The residual value they built into our lease is laughably high, only like a 20% depreciation over 3 years. That made the monthly payments stupidly low. I don't think we'll get that lucky when it's time to jump into another one in 2-1/2 years, but who knows. I know for sure that Hyundai is going to lose some cash on our car... but hey, their sales numbers right now look great!

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by dfox

100%. Our Ioniq is leased right now, couldn't imagine buying an EV in this current age of technology progression. The residual value they built into our lease is laughably high, only like a 20% depreciation over 3 years. That made the monthly payments stupidly low. I don't think we'll get that lucky when it's time to jump into another one in 2-1/2 years, but who knows. I know for sure that Hyundai is going to lose some cash on our car... but hey, their sales numbers right now look great!

yeah its the same on our kia ev9. Hyundai and Kia giving away EVs on leases. FIL got the EV6 for under $200/month

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Read EV forums and there is an implied "charging etiquette" to not charge over 80% because the charging time curve slows greatly past 80%.

I'm on my 5th (or 6th?) EV.
Charging speed curve is not a step function. It doesn't just fall off the cliff at 80%. Its shape varies depending on the underlying battery chemistry, starting state of charge (SOC), battery temperature, on board charger OBC amperage rating and DCFC max Amp rating (and probably lots of other variables I'm forgetting).

The highest rate I've seen was ~250 Amps for brief periods of time with my 82 kWh Panasonic NCA battery. NCA battery is more energy dense and will charge faster than the NCMA. Nothing will charge faster or produce more power than NCA > NCMA > LFP:


80% is really not part of any "charging etiquette", except maybe among Ford people and when others are waiting for a charger (yet to happen to me, ever)?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Start with a cold battery at below 10% SOC and time requirement is even worse.

Not exactly right.
Low SOC is great for max Amp charging. 10% is absolutely perfect for max starting DC charging sped!
Cold battery isn't, but realistically, you are highly unlikely to be arriving at a DC/L3 charging station with a stone cold battery.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Great that you fly, but a lot of people can't afford to fly their family of four somewhere.

Lets get real here - if you can't afford to fly, you are not shopping for a "spare" EV either. Or at least one shouldn't.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think your envisioned cost model of EV charging stations via competition is inaccurate. Utility rates are highly regulated at local area level because utility companies are basically monopolies, so any charging company is stuck with the same industrial power rates as their competitors.

True, but none of the EV fast charging stations are non-profits.
All are charging what the market can bear, and all are profit centers. Including Tesla's SC network!

One might argue EV owners are getting ripped off while charging on the road.
I call that Capitalism, and the problem will solve itself through competition.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Adding amenities to make the charge wait times more pleasurable is antithetical to delivered kWh pricing.

True.
Most DC EV chargers I've encountered fall into one of three (3) categories, and none provided any added amenities beyond those that were already there:

• Co-located with existing gas stations (Exxon, Wawa, etc).
• Adacent to shopping malls, hotels, or highway rest areas.
• Off major highways near a restaurant.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Also, it makes absolutely no business sense to "make" enroute EV charging on a cost parity of ICEV as that would delay adoption of EV by the ICEV market. People will flock to buying a cheaper better product, making it more expensive or as expensive as the current technology makes ZERO sense.

It makes perfect business sense if the EV charger business is managed as a stand-alone profit center!
All this talk about "EV promotion and adoption" is mostly marketing fluff - every EV charging network is managed by a profit maximizing business entity, including Tesla!

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

On-the-road delivery of electrons is expensive as gasoline on a per-mile basis because the infrastructure costs more to build and operate and the electricity is not cheap.

Not really true, if you think about it.
Most road-side EV charging sites tap into existing eletricty infrastructure (criteria for site selection), and cost of land/rent in the middle of nowhere is pretty reasonable (compared to more populated areas).

Tesla has been fooling around with variable EV charging pricing to maximize profit margins from its SuperChargers.
Depending on time of day (aka demand) and location, per KWh cost varies from $0.25-$0.65.
The cost of commercial electrictiy supply doesn't change that much throughout the day, if at all ;-)

a