[dfox]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I basically ignore anyone in Canada and California when they post because they are the type to jump on any new fad because the government tells them to. The government and "science" could (and basically have) crap on them and they would believe it's mana.

The exact opposite thing could be said of your location and typical political leanings for that geographic area. The more realistic thing is to recognize that things aren't black and white, but shades of grey, and we could all recognize there's more in common than not if you stop building walls around political parties.

I have 2 ICE, 1 EV, think the mandates need to either go away entirely, or be overhauled dramatically. EV won't be viable for a lot of the population. The incentives seem to just be abused by the manufacturers right now, but so are the subsidies getting shoved into the koch family pockets for oil. But that said, EV does have a place for a lot of people and the complete lies being spread about them (on both sides) are pretty frustrating for someone who sits in the middle...

[eugenebmw]

Why America Is Struggling With EVs

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dfox

The exact opposite thing could be said of your location and typical political leanings for that geographic area. The more realistic thing is to recognize that things aren't black and white, but shades of grey, and we could all recognize there's more in common than not if you stop building walls around political parties.

I have 2 ICE, 1 EV, think the mandates need to either go away entirely, or be overhauled dramatically. EV won't be viable for a lot of the population. The incentives seem to just be abused by the manufacturers right now, but so are the subsidies getting shoved into the koch family pockets for oil. But that said, EV does have a place for a lot of people and the complete lies being spread about them (on both sides) are pretty frustrating for someone who sits in the middle...

Shades of grey just mean you don't know. But I'm not political at all - I literally have said I do not vote at all, I do not believe in political affiliation. I just believe EVs are stupid.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Why America Is Struggling With EVs

437 EV stations a day put on line for the next 7 years... not going to happen.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Do you have any data to back any of that up?

• Car prices went up 46% over the last 3 years?
  Nope.
  More like 20.6% from 2020 to 2022, inline with post-Covid inflation:
  https://www.statista.com/statistics/...united-states/
  
• Electric cars undercutting ICE car prices?
  Nope.
  As per Edmunds, there was a 42% gap in the average price of an electric car vs. a gas car. Larger for SUVs, smaller for large pickups.
  https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/a...s-gas-car.html

Post some data, and we can have an intelligent conversation.
For now, you are just sharing political slogans devoid of substance.



So what do people in Floriduah, like yourself, prefer to follow instead of government and science?
Conspiracy theories?

MSRP vs MSRP, yes the EVs are costing more. But what people are actually paying for EVs is no where near MSRP on most models unless they are just idiots.

I have an EV9 as my wife's commuter car (she drives 20-50 miles/day if that so it works for her). MSRP was ~$80k. Cross shopped other mid size, 3 row SUVs similarly optioned with MSRPs in the 50s/60s. We ended up leasing the EV9 because it was dirt cheap for a lease, but even if we had bought it outright, or if we buy out the lease and residual now on it, the selling price ends up being in the mid 50s.

between the tax rebates, manufacturer and dealer incentives, and the fact that most dealers are trying to get EV inventory off their lots, its not uncommon to get 20-30% off MSRP on an EV. Especially if there is an abundance of inventory.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

MSRP vs MSRP, yes the EVs are costing more. But what people are actually paying for EVs is no where near MSRP on most models unless they are just idiots.

I have an EV9 as my wife's commuter car (she drives 20-50 miles/day if that so it works for her). MSRP was ~$80k. Cross shopped other mid size, 3 row SUVs similarly optioned with MSRPs in the 50s/60s. We ended up leasing the EV9 because it was dirt cheap for a lease, but even if we had bought it outright, or if we buy out the lease and residual now on it, the selling price ends up being in the mid 50s.

between the tax rebates, manufacturer and dealer incentives, and the fact that most dealers are trying to get EV inventory off their lots, its not uncommon to get 20-30% off MSRP on an EV. Especially if there is an abundance of inventory.

All fine and good, but what is the sustainability of such a market? Manufacturers just cannot perpetually loose money trying to sell EVs to meet Government climate emissions goals and Governments can't perpetually incentivize EV adoption. Eventually, something is going to have to give.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Do you have any data to back any of that up?

• Car prices went up 46% over the last 3 years?
  Nope.
  More like 20.6% from 2020 to 2022, inline with post-Covid inflation:
  https://www.statista.com/statistics/...united-states/
• Electric cars undercutting ICE car prices?
  Nope.
  As per Edmunds, there was a 42% gap in the average price of an electric car vs. a gas car. Larger for SUVs, smaller for large pickups.
  https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/a...s-gas-car.html

Post some data, and we can have an intelligent conversation.
For now, you are just sharing political slogans devoid of substance.



So what do people in Floriduah, like yourself, prefer to follow instead of government and science?
Conspiracy theories?

What science? Economics?

[eugenebmw]

Good news. The safety and accessibility for pedestrians.

Bad news. EV owners who lives in a home without a garage or driveway and installed a level 2 charger cannot use it legally.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

All fine and good, but what is the sustainability of such a market? Manufacturers just cannot perpetually loose money trying to sell EVs to meet Government climate emissions goals and Governments can't perpetually incentivize EV adoption. Eventually, something is going to have to give.

eventually manufacturers will get the cost to produce down to the level its at with ICE vehicles. Because yes, with the current model of all of them losing money on EV, its not sustainable.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Good news. The safety and accessibility for pedestrians.

Bad news. EV owners who lives in a home without a garage or driveway and installed a level 2 charger cannot use it legally.

Okay, let's just back it up a sec, why would anyone purchase a car that needs to be charged and not have means to charge it at home? That's beyond asinine.

If you rely on public charging, you bought the wrong car. I mean honestly, come on. You're literally getting all of the drawbacks of EV ownership without any of the benefits outside of being able to blow by ICE cars on onramps and such.

[vertigyn]

We have a Tesla MYP since 2022. We love it. As long as you can home charge, it’s a perfect commute car. If you do trips - as long as your in populated areas (I.e. Florida) charging along the way is not an issue and only adds a little extra time to the trip.

Now…if you do a rural trip…they are garbage. We took it to the mountains in NC and basically had to leave it parked for the week and use our friends ICE car. Which was fine…but never again.

It is a great normal driver though. IMO at least.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by vertigyn

We have a Tesla MYP since 2022. We love it. As long as you can home charge, it’s a perfect commute car. If you do trips - as long as your in populated areas (I.e. Florida) charging along the way is not an issue and only adds a little extra time to the trip.

Now…if you do a rural trip…they are garbage. We took it to the mountains in NC and basically had to leave it parked for the week and use our friends ICE car. Which was fine…but never again.

It is a great normal driver though. IMO at least.

Agree

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

eventually manufacturers will get the cost to produce down to the level its at with ICE vehicles. Because yes, with the current model of all of them losing money on EV, its not sustainable.

Well, the manufacturers for the most part haven't in the last 20 years of trying. I'm not convinced the battery technology is going to let EV get to price parity with ICEV on total ownership costs.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, the manufacturers for the most part haven't in the last 20 years of trying. I'm not convinced the battery technology is going to let EV get to price parity with ICEV on total ownership costs.

Costs continue to drop fortunately.

https://www.goldmansachs.com/insight...ercent-by-2025

"Global average battery prices declined from $153 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) in 2022 to $149 in 2023, and they’re projected by Goldman Sachs Research to fall to $111 by the close of this year. Our researchers forecast that average battery prices could fall towards $80/kWh by 2026, amounting to a drop of almost 50% from 2023, a level at which battery electric vehicles would achieve ownership cost parity with gasoline-fueled cars in the US on an unsubsidized basis."

[shortgamewizard]

I don't think it's possible to have a REAL discussion on this without politics. One reason I say that is this wasn't a choice, it was FORCED on us and the manufacturers.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by vertigyn

We have a Tesla MYP since 2022. We love it. As long as you can home charge, it’s a perfect commute car. If you do trips - as long as your in populated areas (I.e. Florida) charging along the way is not an issue and only adds a little extra time to the trip.

Now…if you do a rural trip…they are garbage. We took it to the mountains in NC and basically had to leave it parked for the week and use our friends ICE car. Which was fine…but never again.

It is a great normal driver though. IMO at least.

I hang out on the Mustang Mach E forum to really understand how EV owners interface with their MMEs. Just yesterday a member posted about his round trip from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to drop his wife off at Hopkins airport (not sure why she didn't fly out of Pittsburgh). It was a 152-mile one-way trip. He posted the fueling stats and showed that driving the MME was the same fuel cost as driving an ICEV at 25 MPG on regular fuel at $3.30/gal.

It was his first road trip in the MME, so he played with the on-the-road charging infrastructure and used both a Tesla network station (MME have an adapter for Tesla) and a non-Tesla CCA charging station. His overall round trip was 359 miles for a fuel cost of $37, which included a 100% SOC from home using $0.09 kWh residential electrical rate (the internet says Pittsburgh avg. rate is $0.20). Do all the math and that comes out to $0.15 per-mile for fuel cost. My E90 at 27 MPG and requiring $4.00 premium would do the same trip at $0.15 per-mile and not need to refuel mid-trip. The OP of that story spent over an hour at two recharging points to refuel; my E90 would have required just 5 minutes to fuel up at the start of the trip.

This is where I see EV not making sense to the majority of the market. It's great if you can charge at home and stay local with the use case. But do any extended trip that requires on-the-road refueling the cost of electrons and time to get them into the battery is just not worth it to most people. Add in that the majority of EVs cost more to buy than their ICEV equivalent, most of the market just doesn't see the advantage of adopting EV.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Costs continue to drop fortunately.

https://www.goldmansachs.com/insight...ercent-by-2025

"Global average battery prices declined from $153 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) in 2022 to $149 in 2023, and they’re projected by Goldman Sachs Research to fall to $111 by the close of this year. Our researchers forecast that average battery prices could fall towards $80/kWh by 2026, amounting to a drop of almost 50% from 2023, a level at which battery electric vehicles would achieve ownership cost parity with gasoline-fueled cars in the US on an unsubsidized basis."

Projections and forecasts are good, but like all things EV, we have to wait for it and see if it really happens. And I bet that is for the current Lithium-ion battery tech that requires 30+ minutes to recover 80% SOC where EVs need 80kWh - 90 kWh batteries to attain just 200 miles range in the winter and require an integrated charging network to precondition batteries so that enroute charging is not super slow for a cold battery. Tesla's network for Teslas is excellent at the charging integration for route planning and battery preconditioning. But get a CCA EV that relies on a charging infrastructure that is not fully integrated in the EV's routing/trip planning software and it pretty much completely sucks. This is what I have determined by reviewing the information reported by real owners* on the MME forum (i.e. I'm not some "EV hater" just making shit up ).

So, to get more adoption of EV by the prospective reluctant ICEV proponents in the market, everyone recognizes the battery tech needs to get beyond liquid lithium to increase range and bring down DCFC refueling times. So, that means starting back at the top of the kWh-per dollar cost curve and wait again for price parity.


*While most the MME crowd despise Elon Musk, they were all drooling for their free NACS adapter from Ford and praise the availability of Tesla's network.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by shortgamewizard

One reason I say that is this wasn't a choice, it was FORCED on us and the manufacturers.

This.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Projections and forecasts are good, but like all things EV, we have to wait for it and see if it really happens. And I bet that is for the current Lithium-ion battery tech that requires 30+ minutes to recover 80% SOC where EVs need 80kWh - 90 kWh batteries to attain just 200 miles range in the winter and require an integrated charging network to precondition batteries so that enroute charging is not super slow for a cold battery. Tesla's network for Teslas is excellent at the charging integration for route planning and battery preconditioning. But get a CCA EV that relies on a charging infrastructure that is not fully integrated in the EV's routing/trip planning software and it pretty much completely sucks. This is what I have determined by reviewing the information reported by real owners* on the MME forum (i.e. I'm not some "EV hater" just making shit up ).

So, to get more adoption of EV by the prospective reluctant ICEV proponents in the market, everyone recognizes the battery tech needs to get beyond liquid lithium to increase range and bring down DCFC refueling times. So, that means starting back at the top of the kWh-per dollar cost curve and wait again for price parity.


*While most the MME crowd despise Elon Musk, they were all drooling for their free NACS adapter from Ford and praise the availability of Tesla's network.

That's why most manufacturers making EVs have agreed to move future cars to NACS. I have none of the issues you are talking about with my Tesla. Just went from FL to NC and it was cold as fuck in NC (for a Floridian) and I had no issues at all. My father in law who is an EV hater was shocked when we would stop to charge and go inside the Wawa to use the bathroom, get a drink and by the time we came back out we were ready to go. A total of like 4 stops like that.

Once in NC no noticeable range issues with the cold. I charge at home and was able to make it to all the places we go without issue.

[vertigyn]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I hang out on the Mustang Mach E forum to really understand how EV owners interface with their MMEs. Just yesterday a member posted about his round trip from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to drop his wife off at Hopkins airport (not sure why she didn't fly out of Pittsburgh). It was a 152-mile one-way trip. He posted the fueling stats and showed that driving the MME was the same fuel cost as driving an ICEV at 25 MPG on regular fuel at $3.30/gal.

It was his first road trip in the MME, so he played with the on-the-road charging infrastructure and used both a Tesla network station (MME have an adapter for Tesla) and a non-Tesla CCA charging station. His overall round trip was 359 miles for a fuel cost of $37, which included a 100% SOC from home using $0.09 kWh residential electrical rate (the internet says Pittsburgh avg. rate is $0.20). Do all the math and that comes out to $0.15 per-mile for fuel cost. My E90 at 27 MPG and requiring $4.00 premium would do the same trip at $0.15 per-mile and not need to refuel mid-trip. The OP of that story spent over an hour at two recharging points to refuel; my E90 would have required just 5 minutes to fuel up at the start of the trip.

This is where I see EV not making sense to the majority of the market. It's great if you can charge at home and stay local with the use case. But do any extended trip that requires on-the-road refueling the cost of electrons and time to get them into the battery is just not worth it to most people. Add in that the majority of EVs cost more to buy than their ICEV equivalent, most of the market just doesn't see the advantage of adopting EV.

I don't know what the other brands offer for on the go charging - BUT - the Tesla Supercharging network is pretty good. The Superchargers are capable of refilling a Tesla battery very quickly. Most of our charging stops were for 15-20 minutes. Park the car, plug it in, take the kids to the bathroom, pick out candy/drinks or get a coffee, go back to the car and ready to go. Gas stops are capable of being quicker, no doubt. But with kids? Hardly any difference in stop time for us.

Side benefit - no gas stations. My wife has come to despise gas stations. For normal use - plug the car in every night once you are home, and you are ready with a full 'tank' every day. Never any worries of low gas or having to go to a station and touch that filthy pump (haha - just kidding....but kind of not from my wife's perspective).

With the M3...gas trips are just another good excuse to go out for a drive!

[zvez]

Absolutely love my mach e. It's my second one, I had a 21 and moved up to a GTPE 2023 model. It's blindingly quick. Obscenely easy to live with. Only maintenance recommended is tire rotation at 10k miles, and fluid changes years out. BOth have been bulletproof and problem free. The second one did have a software hiccup but ford sorted that easily enough
That said, I have got a z4 on order as a second car, but wouldn't trade this mach e for the world.

[zvez]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I hang out on the Mustang Mach E forum to really understand how EV owners interface with their MMEs. Just yesterday a member posted about his round trip from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to drop his wife off at Hopkins airport (not sure why she didn't fly out of Pittsburgh). It was a 152-mile one-way trip. He posted the fueling stats and showed that driving the MME was the same fuel cost as driving an ICEV at 25 MPG on regular fuel at $3.30/gal.

It was his first road trip in the MME, so he played with the on-the-road charging infrastructure and used both a Tesla network station (MME have an adapter for Tesla) and a non-Tesla CCA charging station. His overall round trip was 359 miles for a fuel cost of $37, which included a 100% SOC from home using $0.09 kWh residential electrical rate (the internet says Pittsburgh avg. rate is $0.20). Do all the math and that comes out to $0.15 per-mile for fuel cost. My E90 at 27 MPG and requiring $4.00 premium would do the same trip at $0.15 per-mile and not need to refuel mid-trip. The OP of that story spent over an hour at two recharging points to refuel; my E90 would have required just 5 minutes to fuel up at the start of the trip.

LOL, I also hang out at the mach e forum as I've owned two over the last three plus years.

In real terms how many trips does the average person make needing recharging? I'm retired but almost all my miles are around town. Public charging is indeed very expensive BUT the home charging costs make up for that. My electricity rate including all taxes and fees is 16 cents kwh. On my GT I average about 3.3 mi/kwh. SO, my costs for charging is roughly 5 cents a mile. Factor in the fact that the car requires no service like oil changes etc. Makes it a huge win.

That said, if I did not have home charging access, no way would I consider an EV.