[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Man,

You asked for a track toy... I 'gave you' one of the best - a 1120 kg Toyobaru with stock engine. Period.

For every other use you can come up with you've just pointed out why the Toyobaru, even in its current form, is such a GEM, it has NO parallel!

Well, let's face it, if I wanted a track only toy, I'd buy a Radical, or an Atom, or a Caterham with an AP1 motor. But back to the S2k for a second, I'm not alone in preferring the AP1 to the AP2, it was easier to hang yourself with it, and in traffic it was a bear, but when you pulled off a perfect, clear lap, it was more enjoyable than the AP2. That was a blend of the peakier motor and the more neutral handling, AP2's erred too far on the side of understeer.

I don't think the BRZ is alone, the Miata still has massively better track support, has a Spec class, weighs less in stock form, has huge parts support, etc. If Mazda builds what they've threatened with a return to the original's weight and Alfa throws in a great motor for their version, the current BRZ has a lot to be worried about.

In my eyes, things that have kept me from buying a BRZ are the potential of an STI version plus current dealer pricing, the ND Miata coming, and as a total pipe dream, the never gonna happen threat of a Z2. Just saying that makes me laugh. Ignore the last one...

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The never gonna happen threat of a Z2.

FWD!!! What a shame!!!

Future compact cars to look at are how the Twins will develop and the "New Twins", the Mazda MX-5 and Alfa Romeo Duetto. Nissan apparently gave up with the successor of the Silvia and Honda is busy on the NSX II. As for the Alfa Romeo 4C it is way above "affordable". By the way, GM wants to enter the game with a new Chevy, the 130 Concept.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Well, let's face it, if I wanted a track only toy, I'd buy a Radical, or an Atom, or a Caterham with an AP1 motor. But back to the S2k for a second, I'm not alone in preferring the AP1 to the AP2, it was easier to hang yourself with it, and in traffic it was a bear, but when you pulled off a perfect, clear lap, it was more enjoyable than the AP2. That was a blend of the peakier motor and the more neutral handling, AP2's erred too far on the side of understeer.

There you have it... the AP2 version added bigger wheels, considerably more rubber and inevitably, some of the FUN was lost in the process. Also, in order to counteract the "snap-oversteer" which the S2000 is known for and notably more so in the earlier AP1 version, the stock sway bars on the AP2 S2000 were significantly thinner, mainly in the rear.

The Toyobaru is PERFECTLY balanced to start with, so the odds are you will do more harm than good!

As for the Radical, or an Atom, or a Caterham you won't want to be in the track with none of them on an otherwise FUN rainy day... too damn wet!

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I don't think the BRZ is alone, the Miata still has massively better track support, has a Spec class, weighs less in stock form, has huge parts support, etc. If Mazda builds what they've threatened with a return to the original's weight and Alfa throws in a great motor for their version, the current BRZ has a lot to be worried about.

In my eyes, things that have kept me from buying a BRZ are the potential of an STI version plus current dealer pricing, the ND Miata coming, and as a total pipe dream, the never gonna happen threat of a Z2. Just saying that makes me laugh. Ignore the last one...

The Miata doesn't have the performance, the balance nor the comfort of the Toyobaru... nor it will ever do! Alfa Romeo is just a name with history.

[Year's_End]

Finally test drove an FR-S. Not bad... I might buy one.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Alfa Romeo is just a name with history.

You obviously have no clue about Alfa Romeo. In the past BMW was called "the german Alfa Romeo". Before the M3 E30 there was Alfa Romeo.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

You obviously have no clue about Alfa Romeo. In the past BMW was called "the german Alfa Romeo". Before the M3 E30 there was Alfa Romeo.

As I said... that's history!

Long time ago I had in my garage for several years a black Alfa Romeo 33 1.5 4-cyl. boxer engine with twin carburettor and 103 hp . Curiously, the Alfa 33 was the last FWD boxer engined car that I can remember of. And, this is how good it was through the corners...




Let's see what they will come up with the 4C.

[Red Bread]

Wow, that's some lean! As for the Miata not having the performance of the BRZ, I'll have to tell all the track rats that. I realize the current one is a little off of its game, but the first two generations give up very little if anything on the track to a BRZ.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Wow, that's some lean! As for the Miata not having the performance of the BRZ, I'll have to tell all the track rats that. I realize the current one is a little off of its game, but the first two generations give up very little if anything on the track to a BRZ.

Again, as I already told you weight IS everything... take the stripped down similarly lightweight 1120 kg Toyobaru with its stock engine and you have an absolute winner for the track (you can leave the stereo in if you want to - the first generation Miata was no different! ).

I had two NB Miatas in a row for 10 years or so... trust me, the Toyobaru is a much more evolved product that is and feels a WAY more solid and has a unique balance to it... where the Miata leans the Toyobaru just distributes the forces over all the four tires.

Weight and weight distribution is ALL what it comes down to!
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[Red Bread]

I'd take you a lot more seriously if you'd lose that absurd signature. Kobayashi couldn't drive his way out of a one way parking structure.

Forgive me for not recalling all 42 previous pages of this thread, but have you bought one of these things yet?

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Forgive me for not recalling all 42 previous pages of this thread, but have you bought one of these things yet?

I didn't find any buyer for my 1M yet. As soon as I sell my 1M the Toyobaru or the future Toyobaru with a KERS system will be my first choice.

I'm VERY curious about the future Toyobaru with an equivalent system to KERS so for the time being no hurry to sell the 1M but if someone interested comes along with the right offer I will sell it.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I'd take you a lot more seriously if you'd lose that absurd signature. Kobayashi couldn't drive his way out of a one way parking structure.

As for Kamui Kobayashi... please read the facts and then tell me if a 6 points difference in the drivers championship to Perez can make that difference if it wasn't for the money behind each driver:

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

I can't understand how F1 can loose its most exciting driver today while at the same time Red Bull keeps Mark Webber, Ferrari keeps Filipe Massa, Mclaren keeps Jenson Button and Lotus keeps Romain Grosjean.

In fact, if Sergio Perez managed to move up to Mclaren why doesn't Kobayashi deserve to drive for an equally competitive F1 team when the 2012 results difference between the two was, at best, only marginal?!


............................. Sergio Perez ............. Kamui Kobayashi
Points ........................... 66 ......................... 60
Race finishes ahead ......... 6 .......................... 4 (after both complete race)
Qualifying ahead ............. 11 ......................... 9 (after both complete qualifying)
Podium finishes ............... 3(3rd & 2x 2nd) ...... 1(3rd)
Best qualifying ................ 4th ........................ 2nd(2x 3rd)
Best lap........................... 1 .......................... 1


Also, if it wasn't for Romain Grosjean's lack of ability causing the first-corner BIG crash at the Belgian Grand Prix (after which he received a one-race ban), Kobayashi who managed to qualify 2nd on the grid could have VERY well finished that race on the podium. Ironically, Grosjean stays on the Lotus team, which only until the last minute ended up not signing Kobayashi for the 2013 season. Yes, I know... Grosjean is french and Lotus, formerly called Renault F1 team, uses Renault engines, Eric Boullier who was Team Principal of the Renault F1 team (and also Managing Director) is now Lotus F1 Team Principal and yes... you have guessed... he is also french and, last but not the least, the Lotus F1 team uses Renault engines and... Renault is obviously french!

Kobayashi was also victim of few Sauber's blatantly wrong race strategy decisions for him, namely those which, once again ironically, led to two of the three podium finishes from his team mate Sergio Perez after he has qualifyed significantly worse than Kobayashi both times (4 places down) and even failing to qualify for Q3 - in the Canadian Grand Prix, Perez started 15th, Kobayashi was 11th on the grid, and yet Perez managed to finish 3rd while Kobayashi finished 9th; in the Italian Grand Prix, Perez started 12th, Kobayashi got through to Q3 getting 8th place on the grid, but yet again Perez finishes on the podium with the 2nd place and Kobayashi only gets the same 9th place. Strange coincidence, no?! So, what really happened?!

In the Canadian Grand Prix, Sauber planned two stops for Kobayashi on SUPER SOFT tyres and after his much too early pit stop the team changed his strategy to one stop only and he did a lot of laps, 46 laps, on a set of soft tyres while Perez started on the HARDER compound and it turned out that one stop strategy was possible and even quicker this way - Perez made his one only pit stop on lap 42 and he had fresh tyres for the remaining 28 laps (from a total of 70 laps).

In the Italian Grand Prix, Sauber sent Kobayashi in one-stop strategy with a used set of medium tires while at the same time they have put Perez in the same one-stop strategy BUT with new hard tires. Kobayashi ended up losing precious time in the beginning of the race trying to preserve a set of used medium tires which were meant for one-stop strategy only. Perez, on the other hand, AGAIN was sent with a fresh new set of HARD tires for the exact same strategy meaning that he could push harder from the very beginning of the race with significantly less tire degradation, which proved to be crucial.

Finally, even at the Japanese Grand Prix where Kobayashi was able to finish 3rd overall (his season's best race result) Sauber did it again and made the wrong strategy decision when they called Kobayashi too damn' early (Kobayashi was in 2nd place at that time) for his first pit stop on lap 16 as he was temporarily held up by drivers yet to stop before managing to overtake them, namely behind Daniel Ricciardo's Toro Rosso already being chased after by Jenson Button who has pitted three laps earlier and re-joined in eighth loosing 3rd place to Filipe Massa, thus giving now his 2nd place away to Filipe Massa who only pitted on lap 20 (same as Vettel who happened to have won the race!!!) after 4 solid laps of nearly traffic-free running which were enough for Massa to hold the 2nd position when he re-joined right in front of Kobayashi (3rd) and Button (4th). Moreover, due to this bad strategy, Kobayashi's second pit stop (on lap 31) had to be done earlier than initially planned because Kamui's tyres had gone off, which made him spent more than 20 laps on the last set of tyres which in the end could have cost him the third position to Jenson Button as well. So, instead of third, Kobayashi could have been 2nd on his home Grand Prix.

Kobayashi belongs to F1, no doubt whatsoever!!!

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

As I said... that's history!

Long time ago I had in my garage for several years a black Alfa Romeo 33 1.5 4-cyl. boxer engine with twin carburettor and 103 hp . Curiously, the Alfa 33 was the last FWD boxer engined car that I can remember of. And, this is how good it was through the corners...




Let's see what they will come up with the 4C.

I had an Alfa 145 1.7 QV Boxer.


Well at BMW M3 E30 also is history. Might change with the new M2.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

I had an Alfa 145 1.7 QV Boxer.


Well at BMW M3 E30 also is history. Might change with the new M2.

Yes and a VERY good page of the car history... but contrary to Alfa Romeo, once in a while, BMW has produced some fine cars and has been consistent in doing so throughout the years... although there are better ones, just to mention the few that I've owned (Euro spec.):

E36 318is Coupé (1993, sold)
E46 323ci (1999, I still own it)
Z4 Coupé 3.0si (2008, sold)
1M (2011)

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Yes and a VERY good page of the car history... but contrary to Alfa Romeo, once in a while, BMW has produced some fine cars and has been consistent in doing so throughout the years... although there are better ones, just to mention the few that I've owned (Euro spec.):

E36 318is (1993, sold)
E46 323ci (1999, I still own it)
Z4 3.0si (2008, sold)
1M (2011)

Alfa 147, 156 and GT, expecially GTA versions, are some great cars, dispite being FWD.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

Alfa 147, 156 and GT, expecially GTA versions, are some great cars, dispite being FWD.

Too little for the last 20 years... don't you think so?!

But, if you like FWD cars so much why have you been laughing about the fact that the future BMW Z2 will be a FWD car?

If the Z2 weight could be comparable to the Toyobaru's weight I bet it will be a better car than any of those that you've just mentioned.



BTW, the E36 318is that I owned was the Coupé version. Also, the Alfa Romeo 145 and 146 that followed to the Alfa 33 were in fact the last FWD boxer engined cars that Alfa Romeo produced.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Too little for the last 20 years... don't you think so?!

But, if you like FWD cars so much why have you been laughing about the fact that the future BMW Z2 will be a FWD car?

If the Z2 weight could be comparable to the Toyobaru's weight I bet it will be a better car than any of those that you've just mentioned.



BTW, the E36 318is that I owned was the Coupé version. Also, the Alfa Romeo 145 and 146 that followed to the Alfa 33 were in fact the last FWD boxer engined cars that Alfa Romeo produced.

I don't like FWD. That is why I'm so sad for Alfa under Fiat. And anyway 4C RWD will be better than Z2 FWD.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

I don't like FWD. That is why I'm so sad for Alfa under Fiat. And anyway 4C RWD will be better than Z2 FWD.

You don't like FWD cars?!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!

How come you own and drive an Alfa 147 then?


The target of the Alfa Romeo 4C will be the Porsche Cayman (not the Z2)... and with that announced HUGE weight advantage over the Porsche I think I don't need to cross my fingers!

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

You don't like FWD cars?!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!

How come you own and drive an Alfa 147 then?


The target of the Alfa Romeo 4C will be the Porsche Cayman (not the Z2)... and with that announced HUGE weight advantage over the Porsche I think I don't need to cross my fingers!

Because I'm an Alfista. Unfortunately there was no RWD Alfa, and the 159 replacement which is to be RWD was and is continuously postponed. At the time I bought it, I was thinking about a 120i or 125i Coupé, not 135i Coupé.
Anyway I followed the FT-86 Project since its beginning, and already had this car in mind. If I woudn't go be studying, I'd now be driving a GT86. 4C will be more expensive.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

Because I'm an Alfista. Unfortunately there was no RWD Alfa, and the 159 replacement which is to be RWD was and is continuously postponed. At the time I bought it, I was thinking about a 120i or 125i Coupé, not 135i Coupé.
Anyway I followed the FT-86 Project since its beginning, and already had this car in mind. If I woudn't go be studying, I'd now be driving a GT86.

Levi,

I am sure that for the price of the Alfa 147 you could have found a fine RWD car, namely a Miata or better still a Toyota MR2.

Originally Posted by Levi

I'd now be driving a GT86. 4C will be more expensive.

Yes. The 4C uses the still expensive composite carbon fibre material which without doubt it's the future for stiff and lightweight chassis as the costs begin to go down with cheaper technology in the manufacturing process.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Levi,
I am sure that for the price of the Alfa 147 you could have found a fine RWD car, namely a Miata or better still a Toyota MR2.

Haha! I decided to pick a new car, if not it was going to be an S2000 AP1.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

Haha! I decided to pick a new car, if not it was going to be an S2000 AP1.

Unless you are used to RWD cars and more importantly you are very good at it, I wouldn't recommend the S2000 AP1 as I wouldn't recommend the 1M for a first car or a first RWD experience... it's like

That's another great feature of the Toyobaru... it can be the best learning tool while it is able to seduce the most talented as well, that's something only reserved to the true greatest... great, great car!

[GoingTooFast]

Toyobaru 'GT3'...

Subaru BRZ RA Racing Edition

6 point roll cage (with sidebar)
4 point seat belt anchor bolt and mounting (official FIA)
air-cooled engine oil cooler
brake ducts
brake dust covers
Engine under cover (Aluminum)
racing floor mat (1 only)
Front and rear tow hooks

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Unless you are used to RWD cars and more importantly you are very good at it, I wouldn't recommend the S2000 AP1 as I wouldn't recommend the 1M for a first car or a first RWD experience... it's like

That's another great feature of the Toyobaru... it can be the best learning tool while it is able to seduce the most talented as well, that's something only reserved to the true greatest... great, great car!

Yes, that is true. Well, I had a 735i E32, broke the rear axle against a pavement.
The MX-5 also is a good learning tool. The 4C however will be more like a 911 with its 40/60 weight distribution, and with its short wheelbase and wide track, it is suposed to have enormous grip, but that also means loss of control will be hard to gain back.