[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by The HACK

This one is simple to explain. Jim Mero, the Corvette test engineer mostly responsible for the chassis tuning of the C5-C7 generation, sums it up succinctly.

I'm paraphrasing here, but in an interview on a podcast he said "we benched marked the C7 against all the best mid and rear engine cars available on the market, and the C7 beat every single one of them. Why would you need to move the engine behind the driver if the front engine layout is already BETTER?"

He later followed up with some clarifications, as he's no longer involved in the C8 development, by saying that he's got 100% faith that the Corvette engineering team will get the C8 right.

Now for my opinion and interpretation. We all know Corvette as a brand may be destined to end up like Harley Davidson. Another iconic brand with decades of "perfecting" a specific formula for their success. Selling to an aging, predominately male population well past the prime of their earning age, but having disposable income because they're old enough not to have to deal with sending kids to college as a way to recapture their youth. White this may not be the primary buying demographic of Corvettes like the C2-C4, this has CERTAINLY become the primary buying demographic of the C5, C6, and C7 and it's gotten progressively OLDER. And they can see the end result unfolding in front of them in Harley Davidson sales, as the age gets older and older, without younger buyers to supplement, it's not sustainable. HD sales has tanked and will continue to tank as the brand is now basically associated with old white male well past their earning prime that needs something more powerful between their legs than what god gave them.

And they see what Porsche is doing (rumor has it multiple 911s and Cayman models were bought as benchmarks), as 911 owner demographic is about 12 years younger than Corvette owner demographic, and Cayman/Boxster demographic is nearly 2 decades younger than your average Corvette buyers. That means, most people who bought the last generation Corvette, the C7, the percentage of the same buyers buying 1 or 2 more generation of Corvette in the next 12-15 years is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than your average Porsche and BMW buyers.

The move to mid engine wasn't driven by performance, but primarily by the need to attract younger, and significantly YOUNGER buyers. At $60K it's only marginally more expensive than the Zupra, and slots in between say, an M2 and a well equipped Cayman S in terms of pricing. And all three of the cars listed are likely to attract a much, MUCH younger demographic than had Corvette basically followed recipe and came out with a C8 that is but an evolutionary change from the C7, since the C7 average buying age has actually gotten OLDER than the C6. They're but doom to repeat the Harley Davidson experience.


_________________________________________________



Notice GM released the 0-60 time but not a slew of other critical performance information? Like Nurburgring time (they have it as the mule has been testing there for MONTHS), 0-100, 1/4mile, 60-0, lateral G...etc? They have all these info, but chose not to release them because they're probably not as impressive as the gain in 0-60 time compared to the previous generations of Corvettes, that what they hope the general public perceives as a paradigm shift, that perception will continue to generate buzz because as soon as they make it official, that the lap times, the lateral Gs, the stopping distances...etc that you can measure against are only marginally better, or even slightly WORSE (as the speculation on the 115ft braking distance compared to the 90 of previous generation has shown), then you lose the buzz that will attract the younger buyers as they're not nearly as loyal as the owners of other Corvettes to blindly buy the new Corvette because it's the new Corvette.

This, of course, is all pure speculation. But the buzz and excitement is what's going to get younger buyers to consider the C8. If you tell me, that yes the C8 is nearly .7 second faster to 60, but is only, hypothetically speaking, 0.5 seconds faster to 1/4 mile, trap 5 mph faster, and less than 5 seconds faster on the Nurburgring? All of a sudden the air is let out of the bubble wrt to the switch to mid engine because you lose all the benefits of the front engine, RWD layout and the TRADITION for marginal gains.

And here in lies the dilemma. The paradigm shift of the C8 isn't going to impact the automotive industry nor the sports car market in general. The paradigm shift is going to impact CORVETTE sales and shift the demographic, because without it, Corvette is in danger of becoming the next Hardly Ableson. But again, the problem is, if you compare the C8 to the C7, if the C7 is already beating all of its rivals on lap time around VIR for 2/3rd the price, how much BETTER does the C8 have to be to justify the move to mid engine? That's what everyone is speculating on, and based on my own experience, and some basic logic, IF C8 is all it's cracked up to be, like how everyone thinks that it's going to be putting prior generation Corvette to shame...then by transitive property, the base C8 would be putting up equivalent numbers to cars like the Porsche GT3 RS and McLaren P1.

And I just don't see that.

So back to Jim Mero's paraphrased quote. Guy's been a straight shooter, has 40+ years of chassis development history and experience, and he doesn't work for GM anymore. I think his sentiment, and I'm putting words in his mouth here, is that the Corvette front engine, rear drive chassis is already a world class chassis. Moving the engine rear-ward behind the driver isn't a guarantee that it'll be SIGNIFICANTLY better.

In fact, my speculation is, with the 200+ lbs weight gain, it's going to struggle matching or beating C7 numbers, and part of that IS because I have a C7, but logic and physics simply dictate so. 200 lbs is a lot of mass for engineering to overcome, while it may be beneficial to acceleration if the weight is placed correctly AND with right gearing, you can't hide that mass in corners nor under braking.

C8 is putting down heavy horsepower without AWD like the M5, the move to mid/rear-engine is welcome. They worked on the C8 for 5 years and benchmarked the C8 against the Ferrari 458.

[SakhirM4]

If you think that the mid-engine Corvette is a new idea, think again. It’s been 60 years in the making.

The idea of a mid-engined Corvette is not new. In fact, it was 60 years ago this year when the first functioning prototype based on that very idea was put together. Known as 1959 CERV I (Chevrolet Engineering Research Vehicle), this open-wheel single-seater rocket was the brainchild of Zora Arkus-Duntov, a Belgian engineer of Russian descent who joined Chevrolet in 1953, just after the birth of the first Corvette.

https://www.motor1.com/features/3603...gine-corvette/

[N54Yankee]

Hack- Chevrolet and Corvette doesn’t boast Times at the Ring that aren’t official. Mule runs there to polish the cars that come off the line at Bowling Green not to brag before a production car runs it. I can’t remember a Corvette test car with a published Ring time.
Car makes are always making their cars better, it’s warfare and you need to keep evolving to stay ahead. Stagnancy breeds losers. Don’t know what Meros motivation was for making such comments but maybe his departure wasn’t as amicable as we were led to believe, regardless.
The C7 Z51 Ring run(Mero driving) was never published because the new Carrera S beat it by a second and Chevy didn’t want that out there. Mero wanted it made public by Chevy declined.
0-60 they published but the car still isn’t finalized yet and I’m sure they’re still tinkering with things to shave Times and other perf numbers besides, every car maker lets out a little info at a time to keep the buzz going. No surprise there.
I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying that the new Z51 will do a good deal better then the C7 Z51 at the Ring I’m confident that the 8 will easily undercut the C7 Z51 7:39 by at least double the 5 sec you think maybe even quadruple. Mid engine shows it’s prowess in turns and the Ring has a whole bunch of them. The new cars lower center of gravity, Cd, stiffer chassis, better down force, likely better brakes, more power and likely at a higher rpm due to those beautiful Longtube headers as opposed to cast manifolds. I think this car is going to be a stunner on tracks.
Corvette has been about performance for most of its life and I think it’s still the primary concern and especially now that they’re throwing the gauntlet down with the mid. Sure selling more cars is always a concern, it is a business after all.
I wager that when we look back at the end of C8 lifespan at the track the cars from Z51,Z06, ZR1, Zora or whatever else they put out will all have numbers better then many of cars in their fighting weight classes and they’ll sell lots of them in the process be it old, middle age or young while taking many checked flags. That’s the way it should be.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I do think the C7 was certainly capable against the competition, but had a much stronger ability to expose poor driving than the mid/rear competition. The C8 should allow the average weekend Tom to look better even if it doesn't provide the likes of Randy Pobst a huge advantage over the C7.

C7 is surprisingly easy to drive fast. Don't forget the entire engine sits behind the front axle.

What took longer for me to get used to is the way the throttle responds and how torque is delivered, but that's no fault of GM or Corvette engineering team. The torque surges instantaneously and down low. It's great for acceleration, but horrible for fine control in corners. I need to relearn how to drive as evident by my sh*tty driving.

This happened 2 laps in a row. It's hard to finesse 460 ft-lbs of torque that comes on at less than 2,000 RPM. I get so used to the bulk of the torque not being available until 4,000 RPM that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how quickly the back-end can come out.

That's not going to change with mid engine. The back-end actually rotates quicker and easier with a mid engine design, because more of the weight is centered around the center of gravity rather than at each end of the car. A mid engine car will allow for easier and BETTER control of the slide, so you won't be tank slapping the car across half the turn, but a better driver it will not make you, in fact, if you don't know what you're doing, a mid rear engine, rear drive will bite you faster than a front engine, rear drive.

But GM's stability control system is off the charts good. Yes I tend to drive without it on track, and anyone getting the C8 for track use, I'd recommend leaving at least some semblance of performance traction management on for track use.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by c1pher

Actually, I have to disagree. Harleys have barely changed at all, while each iteration of the Corvette is practically all new. Harleys do in fact sell to the same people who are getting older. The only difference here is that Corvettes cost a lot more, so guess what, older people are the ones who typically can afford them, especially in the current economic environment.

You're talking from a product stand point, and I agree. What I was talking about, is from a MARKETING perspective. The demographics that each of these marques and brands attract is what is locked into a death spiral. Especially for HD, the stereotype befits the actual demo.

As for the old "older people are the ones that can afford Corvette" argument, that doesn't explain WHY Porsche 911, Cayman and Boxster demographic is 12-20 years YOUNGER, because both of those cars cost MORE than your typical Corvette.

Corvette does not need to attract 20 year olds. They need to attract 35-40 year olds that are SUCCESSFUL. At least in a large enough percentage that these guys can and will be buying Corvettes in the next 20-30 years.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

The C7 Z51 Ring run(Mero driving) was never published because the new Carrera S beat it by a second and Chevy didn’t want that out there. Mero wanted it made public by Chevy declined.

Just in that statement alone, you confirmed my suspicion. There's actually no hard rules in place that says GM does not publish mule times. If the C8 base mule breaks the 7:20 of the Z06, you bet GM would be out there shouting it from the mountain top.

GM refused to publish the C7 Z51 Ring run BECAUSE PORSCHE BEAT IT. That's how marketing works. Someone already stole your thunder. You think GM won't find a way to "leak" the C8 ring time if it's as speculated significantly faster than the C7 Z51 or Grand Sport times?

Yes, I am just guessing, but I am also a life long marketing executive with experience in the Automotive Aftermarket (no not automotive manufacturing). I know how this works. I still think that those other performance figures are not published or leaked by GM because they weren't the paradigm shift we all thought it would be.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Hack- Chevrolet and Corvette doesn’t boast Times at the Ring that aren’t official. Mule runs there to polish the cars that come off the line at Bowling Green not to brag before a production car runs it. I can’t remember a Corvette test car with a published Ring time.
Car makes are always making their cars better, it’s warfare and you need to keep evolving to stay ahead. Stagnancy breeds losers. Don’t know what Meros motivation was for making such comments but maybe his departure wasn’t as amicable as we were led to believe, regardless.
The C7 Z51 Ring run(Mero driving) was never published because the new Carrera S beat it by a second and Chevy didn’t want that out there. Mero wanted it made public by Chevy declined.
0-60 they published but the car still isn’t finalized yet and I’m sure they’re still tinkering with things to shave Times and other perf numbers besides, every car maker lets out a little info at a time to keep the buzz going. No surprise there.
I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying that the new Z51 will do a good deal better then the C7 Z51 at the Ring I’m confident that the 8 will easily undercut the C7 Z51 7:39 by at least double the 5 sec you think maybe even quadruple. Mid engine shows it’s prowess in turns and the Ring has a whole bunch of them. The new cars lower center of gravity, Cd, stiffer chassis, better down force, likely better brakes, more power and likely at a higher rpm due to those beautiful Longtube headers as opposed to cast manifolds. I think this car is going to be a stunner on tracks.
Corvette has been about performance for most of its life and I think it’s still the primary concern and especially now that they’re throwing the gauntlet down with the mid. Sure selling more cars is always a concern, it is a business after all.
I wager that when we look back at the end of C8 lifespan at the track the cars from Z51,Z06, ZR1, Zora or whatever else they put out will all have numbers better then many of cars in their fighting weight classes and they’ll sell lots of them in the process be it old, middle age or young while taking many checked flags. That’s the way it should be.

You know, I love the confidence you show. I'm a skeptic by nature, I research and double check every statistic that comes across my desk as part of my working habit. And since I work in Marketing I tend to not believe what others say unless I can independently verify.

You may very well be right. It's a car that no one outside of GM has access to, and those that do, have a press embargo put on, so we won't really know unless third party instrumentation is done. And at the end of the day, I would actually be HAPPY if I am proven wrong, as I have been proven wrong before on a wide variety of topics.

What I will say is this. I love bench racing as much as the next guy. And this "discussion" is healthy. But I'm not a betting man, so I won't take you up on your wager.

But my gut tells me it's a lot of smoke and mirrors still.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Just in that statement alone, you confirmed my suspicion. There's actually no hard rules in place that says GM does not publish mule times. If the C8 base mule breaks the 7:20 of the Z06, you bet GM would be out there shouting it from the mountain top.

GM refused to publish the C7 Z51 Ring run BECAUSE PORSCHE BEAT IT. That's how marketing works. Someone already stole your thunder. You think GM won't find a way to "leak" the C8 ring time if it's as speculated significantly faster than the C7 Z51 or Grand Sport times?

Yes, I am just guessing, but I am also a life long marketing executive with experience in the Automotive Aftermarket (no not automotive manufacturing). I know how this works. I still think that those other performance figures are not published or leaked by GM because they weren't the paradigm shift we all thought it would be.

I never said there was a hard GM rule I just stated that I can’t remember them doing it, can you? You’re sort of in the business so I’m thinking you might know better. I’m talking about production cars here and when they do run it “official” of course it will be broadcast to the world.
The Carrera S beating the C7 was an official Corvette run time, it’s the first time I’ve heard of that the company declined to put it on the big board, I don’t recall another time that was done by Corvette, do you? I’m all ears.
I think you’re really jumping the gun here thinking that they already have these performance numbers locked down already. Even during the unveiling they locked the engine compartment down because the construction wasn’t even completed and didn’t want the press to get pics. You give them to much credit to get stuff done fast like a NASCAR pit crew, don’t even be surprised if there’s a delay in the roll off.
I’m guessing here also and I’m confident that this car will far surpass your low set bar. We won’t have too long to wait, if there’s no holdups that is.
I’m going to say here for posterity it will be at least 15 sec quicker around the Ring faster then the Z51 C7. Official C8 time vs the C7’s 7:39 that is.

Just saw your second post so I’ll just tack it on here.
I recall you stating another day why go with the mid because the C7 did so well against the completion with the front engine. You’re right it did and beat cars a lot more expensive then it was. So did the C6 variants. Why are you so skeptical when the past 19 years the company demonstrated they know what they’re doing to compete very well and surprise many in the game? The proof is in the pudding and on the track timer.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

I think you’re really jumping the gun here thinking that they already have these performance numbers locked down already.

This I am absolutely certain of. They have those numbers. One of the companies I used to work for supplied parts to a tier 3 supplier for GM (this is like my third cousin's roommate knows someone, but...). We got to work directly with GM engineering team on the development for the car the part is suppose to go into*. I actually have first hand knowledge of their development process as latter on I sat in on the weekly and daily engineering team calls, and I can say with a confidence and a CERTAINTY that they know exactly what those performance numbers are.

The part we provided to them had to go into those mules for their 100,000 mile testing. The production specifications were locked down more than 12 months before the first part was shipped to the tier 3 supplier for assembly. Unlike product development for a chair or a toaster, car manufacturers (at least the big ones) have specs locked down years before the vehicle start rolling down the production line. Product planning happen 5-7 years in advance and when you see camouflaged mules on the road, they're not testing for performance or tune or numbers, they're testing for mandatory miles and regulatory requirements.

*NOTE: The part we developed isn't vital to the car's operation, as evident by not being even involved directly but through a tier 3 supplier. Originally we were suppose to supply the part and assembly directly, but by regulatory standards we had to be qualified into one of the tier structures and it would have been cost prohibitive for us for the certification process.

But that's neither here nor there and not important to the discussion. Like I said, based on my experience, I am confident and comfortable saying that GM absolutely knows what all the performance data lies with the C8. What they chose to publish and NOT publish can be parsed 1,000 ways.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Even during the unveiling they locked the engine compartment down because the construction wasn’t even completed and didn’t want the press to get pics. You give them to much credit to get stuff done fast like a NASCAR pit crew, don’t even be surprised if there’s a delay in the roll off.

It's hard to imagine GM doesn't have every single performing parameters of the C8 known by now or even a few months back. Pretty much every hard components - engine, transmission, suspension hard points, diff, cooling ... have been locked down so I am not sure there is anything else they can change. Besides, the software simulation is so good nowaday that lap times can be simulated with very good precision.

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

We won’t have too long to wait, if there’s no holdups that is.

lols murphy's law strikes again ...

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by nlaak

What is annoying me is people here that are arguing things that can't be backed up empirically because the car has not been released yet.

The point is that it will be able to measured once it is released.

I didn't realize this part flew so far over your head you had to turn to ranting and ad hominems.


Step outside, I think there are some clouds you can yell at.

[BMWILUVU]

They are fine tuning the suspension. The 0-60 is not affected by suspension tweaks as much as overall lap-times.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

They are fine tuning the suspension. The 0-60 is not affected by suspension tweaks as much as overall lap-times.

Unless the original tuning was really bad, I doubt the lap time will be that much different.

[N54Yankee]

In a game where tenths of a second matter it’s very important.

[Mingwan]

Pretty excited about this car. It’ll bring everyone else down a notch. Unfortunately, with how affordable the C8 is supposed to be, it’ll fall into the hands of many noob drivers and will likely contend with the mustang for record crowd plowings per year.

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Pretty excited about this car. It’ll bring everyone else down a notch. Unfortunately, with how affordable the C8 is supposed to be, it’ll fall into the hands of many noob drivers and will likely contend with the mustang for record crowd plowings per year.

The C8 is NOT affordable. Including insurance, very few people can afford it. As for "crowd plowings", it's no different from those likes Lambo, Ferrari, M4 ...

[BMWILUVU]

C8 is not a mustang.

[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by WestRace

The C8 is NOT affordable. Including insurance, very few people can afford it. As for "crowd plowings", it's no different from those likes Lambo, Ferrari, M4 ...

lol corvette insurance is very cheap, actually. I've had a few...

But yes, most people cannot buy a $60-70k car

[HuskerFan85]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Pretty excited about this car. It’ll bring everyone else down a notch. Unfortunately, with how affordable the C8 is supposed to be, it’ll fall into the hands of many noob drivers and will likely contend with the mustang for record crowd plowings per year.

imagine writing this and not being self aware. Oh no, Its going to be attainable by plebs!

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

lol corvette insurance is very cheap, actually. I've had a few...

But yes, most people cannot buy a $60-70k car

Exactly, some young petroleum engineer, maybe. On a 5-year note that's north of $1k per month, doesn't include your TTL, insurance or maintenance.

As for insurance costs, you can't really compare them. Age, record, credit, ZIP code, miles driven, etc, etc.

Home and car insurance in Oklahoma is stupid expensive because of all the wind/hail damage we get.

[Obioban]

Plastic body panels (every corvette) don't suffer the hail damage-- should help with insurance rates

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Pretty excited about this car. It’ll bring everyone else down a notch. Unfortunately, with how affordable the C8 is supposed to be, it’ll fall into the hands of many noob drivers and will likely contend with the mustang for record crowd plowings per year.

Originally Posted by WestRace

The C8 is NOT affordable. Including insurance, very few people can afford it.

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

lol corvette insurance is very cheap, actually. I've had a few...

Originally Posted by HuskerFan85

imagine writing this and not being self aware. Oh no, Its going to be attainable by plebs!

I find it interesting that some folks around here think that the C8 will never be a used car and will never depreciate.

In 3 years auto trader will be littered with these thing for around $30,000, just like it is with C7s

The C8 will absolutely put a new level of performance in the hands of people who have never had it before. Handling in a mid-engine car is a bit more tricky at the limit, the limits are very high, so you have to be doing something very stupid to get there, but once you are there things can go very wrong very fast.