[jaco]

AF 447 went down due to some pilots forgetting about angle of attack and poor lives lost due to it. At one point they were increasing their altitude by 7000 fpm which at 38000 ft.

As long as a plane keeps above its stall speed which increases as altitude increases it will be fine. Something catastrophic happened in this case IMO.

It is really creepy to me since the 777 is such a stellar plane.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

Not really. An airplane can fly at any altitude (up to it's ceiling of course). AF447 went down because the pitot probes iced up. Those probes are used to determine air speed. The airplane started getting conflicting numbers from it's three pitot probes and the autopilot basically said "F this" and turned it over to the pilots. The pilots reacted incorrectly and tried to troubleshoot the air data malfunction rather than just flying the damn airplane. This resulted in them putting the airplane into a stall and start losing altitude. It got away from them to the point where it was completely unrecoverable and it pancaked into the ocean.

Classic example of pilots becoming over-reliant on the automation and losing their basic stick-and-rudder skills unfortunately.

First I will say there are a lot of very good pilots and I know some personally so the following comment is not an attach on all pilots it is more about the industry as a whole.

Most of the flying public are unaware of the fact that many pilots today do not understand the basic concepts behind flying. Most pilots fly by the book or what they been trained to do. Unlike US military pilots who have science, technical and engineering backgrounds understand the physics behind a plane and flying where as most pilots in commercial airlines lack these basic understanding. Many of these pilots graduated college with business or liberal arts degrees and signed up for pilot flight training with one of the major airlines in the past 30 yrs and learn to fly plans by the book.

99% of the time this perfectly fine, but when things happen which the book does not cover or you do not have time to go through all the check lists before the plane hits ground this method fails. Even time the FAA cites pilot error for these occurrence this is why, they lack the understand to assess the situation and figure out what to do. Most flying by the book attempts to keep pilots from ever getting into those situation in the first place the reason I pointed out about, but as we see things happen.

I have an engineering background and spoke with pilots who are friends of mine, and had discussion with them about science the behind flying and how things work and you can tell immediately they do not understand the physics.

Simple example, the stupid Mythbusters story about can a plane take off if it is on a conveyor belt going the opposite way as the plane. Most will tell you it can not since you can not get enough ground speed. Some how most think the wheel on the plane is what drives the plan down the runway similar to a car.

In this case, if the plane was taken over as some people are theorizing, the next question is did the plane get into a situation where book did not cover the situation. I do not know the specific of the two pilots other than the one had his own flight simulator in his home and practice flying all the time. But Rote Memory flying does not make you a good pilot per say.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by Maestro

A new theory...

4) Sank the Plane in 12,000 ft of water in the Indian Ocean, never to be seen again.

5) Terrorist never speak about it again and do it a few more time.

6) People stop flying since planes are disappearing all over the globe and the governments have no clue what is happening.

I think we have a movie idea on our hands! Perfect for the sci-fi channel after the world premiere of Croctopus hahaha

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by P1et

Why would a terrorist do this anonymously? They are there to spread hate and fear. If no one knows it was them, wouldn't the mission be pointless?

Being from NY, it makes me uncomfortable to type this out but imagine the hijacking at one period of time and then crashing it wherever they please at another point in time.

[MiddleAgedAl]

It remains to be seen if this has anything in common with the Air France problem, where crappy pilots forgot how aerodynamic lift works, and thought you can actually climb your way out of a stall. However, one thing that is painfully clear is the epic gong show of the response of various parties involved in the ongoing search.

Malaysia can't get it's story straight regarding whether or not any military radar did or did not pick up signatures from a 777-sized object off it's west coast more than an hour after they lost transponder and radio contact.

China releases photos they say could be debris in the water, then 24 hours later, after the area is searched with no luck, then they say "oh sorry, those photos were released by mistake, just ignore that".

Vietnam is scaling back their search until they stop getting conflicting data re: where the last known whereabouts are.

A source tells the WSJ that the planes engines continued to transmit data to Boeing/Rolls Royce up to 4 hours after last known position, then some Malaysian official disputes that the next day, etc etc etc.

These are all basic things that should easily be refuted or not with simple analysis of available data and facts. Until proven true, no point in sending people on panicked wild goose chases, or gettings their hopes up for nothing.

If there's a contest for incompetence, I'm not sure there is anything the pilots could do to win that, considering how the rest of it has been handled.

[Maestro]

^it is not a contest of incompetency, but media making a circus of it. As much as the media seems to learn the lesson with not trying to fill in the blanks. They are at it again, they are trying to keep everyone attention so they can rake in Ad $ and the only way to do that when the actually facts are non existent or boring is to make it up or run around asking anyone and everyone to comment until find someone to comment publicly or privately on things they obviously are not familiar with.

A guy at work said that Journalists today should not work in news but Kindergarten since they make better story tellers than actual news reporters.

[jwzimm]

^^ A lot of this is due to the massive media attention and lack of good journalism as well. The news outlets get so desperate to get the big "scoop" that they don't bother to investigate anything and end up printing the solid poo they "scooped". The prime example is the new station in San Fransisco reporting on the pilots names on the Asiana flight that crashed as "Wi Too Lo, Ho Le Fuk, Som Ting Wong, and Bang Ding Ow". They actually put that on the evening news!!!

The media has become more of a rumor mill that actual investigative journalism nowadays.

[jwzimm]

Originally Posted by Maestro

^it is not a contest of incompetency, but media making a circus of it. As much as the media seems to learn the lesson with not trying to fill in the blanks. They are at it again, they are trying to keep everyone attention so they can rake in Ad $ and the only way to do that when the actually facts are non existent or boring is to make it up or run around asking anyone and everyone to comment until find someone to comment publicly or privately on things they obviously are not familiar with.

I guy at work said that Journalist today should not work in news today but Kindergarten since they make better story telling than actual news reports

jinx!

[MiddleAgedAl]

The fact remains that the search efforts seem to be very disorganized. Once reports of a possible radar ping off the west coast were published, then expensive, resource-consuming search efforts began in that area.

Once China published those satellite photos, searches focused on that area too, to no avail.

I'm not saying the media isn't to blame for publishing unverified crap, I'm saying that whoever is coordinating the search should be verifying stuff themselves before relying on that crappy media, and dedicating time and money to searching there.

If some media outlet said an "unnamed, but reliable source" told them the plane was sighted over the northern tip of Australia, and then search teams were directed to look there, who would be at fault, the media for publishing speculative crap to sell papers, or the search organizers for going on that instead of verified data.

The search organizer's job is to save lives, not sell papers, so if they run with nonsense without verification, then that is inexcusable, and not the media's fault. They should be ashamed of themselves. Bad things often happen when you outsource your critical thinking to someone else.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Maestro

^it is not a contest of incompetency, but media making a circus of it. As much as the media seems to learn the lesson with not trying to fill in the blanks. They are at it again, they are trying to keep everyone attention so they can rake in Ad $ and the only way to do that when the actually facts are non existent or boring is to make it up or run around asking anyone and everyone to comment until find someone to comment publicly or privately on things they obviously are not familiar with.

I guy at work said that Journalist today should not work in news today but Kindergarten since they make better story telling than actual news reports

Originally Posted by jwzimm

^^ A lot of this is due to the massive media attention and lack of good journalism as well. The news outlets get so desperate to get the big "scoop" that they don't bother to investigate anything and end up printing the solid poo they "scooped". The prime example is the new station in San Fransisco reporting on the pilots names on the Asiana flight that crashed as "Wi Too Lo, Ho Le Fuk, Som Ting Wong, and Bang Ding Ow". They actually put that on the evening news!!!

The media has become more of a rumor mill that actual investigative journalism nowadays.

24/7 news is what killed good news. All this sensationalism gives me more drama than facts. Horrible.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

The prime example is the new station in San Fransisco reporting on the pilots names on the Asiana flight that crashed as "Wi Too Lo, Ho Le Fuk, Som Ting Wong, and Bang Ding Ow". They actually put that on the evening news!!!

remember that epic fail...

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

^^ A lot of this is due to the massive media attention and lack of good journalism as well. The news outlets get so desperate to get the big "scoop" that they don't bother to investigate anything and end up printing the solid poo they "scooped". The prime example is the new station in San Fransisco reporting on the pilots names on the Asiana flight that crashed as "Wi Too Lo, Ho Le Fuk, Som Ting Wong, and Bang Ding Ow". They actually put that on the evening news!!!

The media has become more of a rumor mill that actual investigative journalism nowadays.

When initially saw that on the news I immediately thought one of Howard Sterns Listeners pull that one off. That is so like his show. I was also waiting for someone to do something similar with this incident.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by P1et

24/7 news is what killed good news. All this sensationalism gives me more drama than facts. Horrible.

Very true.

[F1Venom]

Maybe they flew into outer space...

[Nate2046]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Most of the flying public are unaware of the fact that many pilots today do not understand the basic concepts behind flying.

I've been flying for Part 121 airlines for 16 years. I've talked to more pilots than you have. You have no idea what you're talking about. That is all.

[jwzimm]

Originally Posted by Nate2046

I've been flying for Part 121 airlines for 16 years. I've talked to more pilots than you have. You have no idea what you're talking about. That is all.

You also fly in the US. Most US operators employ very well trained and capable pilots. The issue is the international carriers (specifically asian carriers). They do not have the ex military and enthusiast population to draw from so they get pilots without the basic training the comes from learning on Cessna's and graduating up.

No one is questioning US pilots capabilities here. I work directly with pilots and I know they know their crap.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by pgviper

1) Hijack plane

2) Shutoff all communication

3) Fly low to ground below radar

4) Land on abandoned airstrip

Now, some crazy organization has a Boeing 777 and 200+ hostages at their disposal. This scenario does not seem to crazy to have happened. It meets all of the criterea of the scenario.

I'm telling you right now. There is no way besides a full blown futuristic EMP pulse that every electrical system on that plane accidentally shut off at the same time. I do failure analysis on commercial aircraft and they have backup upon backup upon backup upon redundant systems galore. There is just no way.

Back on topic here people.

Looks like my scenario is now the latest idea of what may have happened. Search is expanding to land now.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...923544562.html

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Nate2046

I've been flying for Part 121 airlines for 16 years. I've talked to more pilots than you have. You have no idea what you're talking about. That is all.

I as said it was not an attack on pilots, my comment is about airline industry as whole.

However, I will ask you how many pilots you know have engineering or aeronautical engineering background. Yeah do not tell me you do not need to be an engineer to drive a car, maybe you should then we would have less people driving in highways who fail to understand about power and braking distance and the fact you lose friction on wet surfaces and the list goes on.

The airline industries has minimize what it really takes to understand what is take to fly a plane and all the principles behind it. I know enough to be dangerous and can not explain all the principles and most pilots know less then me about the physics. To put another way I have 2 yrs of physics and dynamics class in college and most pilots has none.

Most commercial pilots fly on rote memory skills not because the fully understand the science.

[KingOfJericho]

I know one pilot and he's an engineer.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Back on topic here people.

Looks like my scenario is now the latest idea of what may have happened. Search is expanding to land now.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...923544562.html

I heard something last night that the US government has advise them to begin searching on land. They way it was said sounds like they know something, but would not say.

I know that the black-box has the ability to transmit after a plane goes down especially over land they can locate a plane form the black box beacon via satellites

You can even get one for yourself.

http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advi...r-beacons.html

The question is will it work even after a plane lawn darts itself into the ground. The black-box from flight 93 was found buried 7 ft below ground, but never heard if it was working at the time.

These things are suppose to work under water as well, so I wonder is any US subs are in the area listening for the beacon.

[Maestro]

Here are some more more information on the plane heading to India

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...reports-n52561

And here is a map of the what they believe was the flight path

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BirwabjCIAACtVF.png:large

[PSUSMU]

Boeing 777 found: http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/for/4370884298.html