[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by dr325i

True about Putin and current Russia.
I don't think Mantis meant it in a such a bad way though...

+1 i was referring to russia in that way.

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Are you claiming that we do not know who we are fighting or why?

absolutely. I feel sad for soldiers who think they're fighting for one thing, but in reality they're tools in hands of gov't to achieve another goal that soldiers probably do not care for.

Your fight should have been with alqaida (sp?) but now you find yourself in a country with no relation to that AND as a result you ended up spreading alqaida like cancer ALL around the world!

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

absolutely. I feel sad for soldiers who think they're fighting for one thing, but in reality they're tools in hands of gov't to achieve another goal that soldiers probably do not care for.

Your fight should have been with alqaida (sp?) but now you find yourself in a country with no relation to that AND as a result you ended up spreading alqaida like cancer ALL around the world!

One more bad thing about Dick and W and you'll go on Ignore list, too...

[ATG]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

you're missing my point. I am talking about the democratic practices. You can claim a lot of advancements russia encountered after Putin and I will agree with you, but we both cannot claim it has real opposition that has power OVER the president. Russian president has power over everyone, and every institution.

and no, i do not watch Fox. Hearing the word "Fox News" drops my IQ like 30 points, just by hearing the name!

is there real opposition in the U.S. that has power over Bush? Your view is very superfluous and populistic. The truth is that as opposed to the current U.S. president, Putin is extremely popular in Russia and for a good reason: compared to all previous Russian leaders who could not link 2 words (except Gorbachev), Putin is well-educated, articulate, smart, and above all, is a good manager who can make the right decision if necessary.

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by ATG

is there real opposition in the U.S. that has power over Bush? Your view is very superfluous and populistic. The truth is that as opposed to the current U.S. president, Putin is extremely popular in Russia and for a good reason: compared to all previous Russian leaders who could not link 2 words (except Gorbachev), Putin is well-educated, articulate, smart, and above all, is a good manager who can make the right decision if necessary.

that is exactly what i was saying. Im not arguing russia is bad or US is better. Im saying the US is pretty close to dictatorships these days.

I hope it gets better here in the US, and keeps getting better for Russia or any other country.

Even if a president is great, there's usually at least ONE person who's opposition. Saying there's no opposition whatsoever or disagreement is just a bit unrealistic.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

absolutely. I feel sad for soldiers who think they're fighting for one thing, but in reality they're tools in hands of gov't to achieve another goal that soldiers probably do not care for.

Your fight should have been with alqaida (sp?) but now you find yourself in a country with no relation to that AND as a result you ended up spreading alqaida like cancer ALL around the world!

Do you have any experience dealing with soldiers? They know exactly who and for what they are fighting.

Al Qaeda is in Iraq. The source for most , if not all, of the mass casualty attacks against civilians is al Qaeda. Whether they were there before the war (they were) is irrelevant to whether or not we should fight them there now. Even if you want to say that al Qaeda is only in Iraq because we are, does that mean it should not be engaged there?

The big flaw in your thinking is your assumption that an organization like al Qaeda only reacts to our actions. They exist and attack us to accomplish there own ends not only to disrupt ours. Do yourself a favor and read what bin Laden and his subordinates say their objectives are and see if you could accept a world where the US was not an impediment to their attaining those objectives. They have said that Iraq is the central front in their war with us? Would you really want to abandon that front? Especially now when we are making gains with those in Iraq who once accepted them in their neighborhoods?

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

that is exactly what i was saying. Im not arguing russia is bad or US is better. Im saying the US is pretty close to dictatorships these days.

I hope it gets better here in the US, and keeps getting better for Russia or any other country.

Even if a president is great, there's usually at least ONE person who's opposition. Saying there's no opposition whatsoever or disagreement is just a bit unrealistic.

Could you please provide a basis for your belief that we are pretty close to a dictatorship?

[!Xoible]

alqaida only existed because of invasion of iraq. it has never, and it would have never existed in iraq without the invasion.

basis that we're close to dictatorship? a president with less than 30% rate of approval, his congress asks him to put a timeline for a need that 70% of the american people want (withdrawal), what does he do? what he wants. that's the definition of a dicatator

[!Xoible]

i really dont believe ur defending bush. you're like the only one in the world

have fun

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

alqaida only existed because of invasion of iraq. it has never, and it would have never existed in iraq without the invasion.

basis that we're close to dictatorship? a president with less than 30% rate of approval, his congress asks him to put a timeline for a need that 70% of the american people want (withdrawal), what does he do? what he wants. that's the definition of a dicatator

Even if we accept your incorrect premise that al Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion, does that mean we should not engage them there?

A president exercising his constitutional powers in the face of congressional opposition is a dictatorship? No, actually it is exactly how the framers intended it to be.

[!Xoible]

former CIA head George Tenet admitted there was no link of alqaida in iraq. why are you arguing this with me? it's a fact!

your other argument doesnt make it less of a dictatorship. what you just described sure is not a democracy, even if it was constitutional!

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

former CIA head George Tenet admitted there was no link of alqaida in iraq. why are you arguing this with me? it's a fact!

Here are a few quotes from Tenet's book and you tell me if you believe your statement accurately reflects Tenet's position.

There was more than enough evidence to give us real concern about Iraq and al-Qa'ida; there was plenty of smoke, maybe even some fire: Ansar al-Islam; Zarqawi; Kurmal; the arrests in Europe; the murder of American USAID officer Lawrence Foley, in Amman, at the hands of Zarqawi's associates; and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad operatives in Baghdad...

The intelligence told us that senior al-Qa'ida leaders and the Iraqis had discussed safe haven in Iraq. Most of the public discussion thus far has focused on Zarqawi's arrival in Baghdad under an assumed name in May of 2002, allegedly to receive medical treatment. Zarqawi, whom we termed a "senior associate and collaborator" of al-Qa'ida at the time, supervised camps in northern Iraq run by Ansar al-Islam (AI).

We believed that up to two hundred al-Qa'ida fighters began to relocate there in camps after the Afghan campaign began in the fall of 2001. The camps enhanced Zarqawi's reach beyond the Middle East. One of the camps run by AI, known as Kurmal, engaged in production and training in the use of low-level poisons such as cyanide. We had intelligence telling us that Zarqawi's men had tested these poisons on animals and, in at least one case, on one of their own associates. They laughed about how well it worked. Our efforts to track activities emanating from Kurmal resulted in the arrest of nearly one hundred Zarqawi operatives in Western Europe planning to use poisons in operations...

What was even more worrisome was that by the spring and summer of 2002, more than a dozen al-Qa'ida-affiliated extremists converged on Baghdad, with apparently no harassment on the part of the Iraqi government. They had found a comfortable and secure environment in which they moved people and supplies to support Zarqawi's operations in northeastern Iraq...

More al-Qa'ida operatives would follow, including Thirwat Shihata and Yussef Dardiri, two Egyptians assessed by a senior al-Qa'ida detainee to be among the Egyptian Islamic Jihad's best operational planners, who arrived by mid-May of 2002. At times we lost track of them, though their associates continued to operate in Baghdad as of October 2002. Their activity in sending recruits to train in Zarqawi's camps was compelling enough.

There was also concern that these two might be planning operations outside Iraq. Credible information told us that Shihata was willing to strike U.S., Israeli, and Egyptian targets sometime in the future. Shihata had been linked to terrorist operations in North Africa, and while in Afghanistan he had trained North Africans in the use of truck bombs. Smoke indeed. But how much fire, if any?...

...from an intelligence point of view it would have been difficult to conclude that the Iraqi intelligence service was not aware of their activities.

your other argument doesnt make it less of a dictatorship. what you just described sure is not a democracy, even if it was constitutional!

Unless you wish to argue that the Constitution of the United States laid out a system of government that can accurately be described as a dictatorship, then the application of constitutional Presidential power is not dictatorial.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Here are a few quotes from Tenet's book and you tell me if you believe your statement accurately reflects Tenet's position.

There was more than enough evidence to give us real concern about Iraq and al-Qa'ida; there was plenty of smoke, maybe even some fire: Ansar al-Islam; Zarqawi; Kurmal; the arrests in Europe; the murder of American USAID officer Lawrence Foley, in Amman, at the hands of Zarqawi's associates; and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad operatives in Baghdad...

The intelligence told us that senior al-Qa'ida leaders and the Iraqis had discussed safe haven in Iraq. Most of the public discussion thus far has focused on Zarqawi's arrival in Baghdad under an assumed name in May of 2002, allegedly to receive medical treatment. Zarqawi, whom we termed a "senior associate and collaborator" of al-Qa'ida at the time, supervised camps in northern Iraq run by Ansar al-Islam (AI).

We believed that up to two hundred al-Qa'ida fighters began to relocate there in camps after the Afghan campaign began in the fall of 2001. The camps enhanced Zarqawi's reach beyond the Middle East. One of the camps run by AI, known as Kurmal, engaged in production and training in the use of low-level poisons such as cyanide. We had intelligence telling us that Zarqawi's men had tested these poisons on animals and, in at least one case, on one of their own associates. They laughed about how well it worked. Our efforts to track activities emanating from Kurmal resulted in the arrest of nearly one hundred Zarqawi operatives in Western Europe planning to use poisons in operations...

What was even more worrisome was that by the spring and summer of 2002, more than a dozen al-Qa'ida-affiliated extremists converged on Baghdad, with apparently no harassment on the part of the Iraqi government. They had found a comfortable and secure environment in which they moved people and supplies to support Zarqawi's operations in northeastern Iraq...

More al-Qa'ida operatives would follow, including Thirwat Shihata and Yussef Dardiri, two Egyptians assessed by a senior al-Qa'ida detainee to be among the Egyptian Islamic Jihad's best operational planners, who arrived by mid-May of 2002. At times we lost track of them, though their associates continued to operate in Baghdad as of October 2002. Their activity in sending recruits to train in Zarqawi's camps was compelling enough.

There was also concern that these two might be planning operations outside Iraq. Credible information told us that Shihata was willing to strike U.S., Israeli, and Egyptian targets sometime in the future. Shihata had been linked to terrorist operations in North Africa, and while in Afghanistan he had trained North Africans in the use of truck bombs. Smoke indeed. But how much fire, if any?...

...from an intelligence point of view it would have been difficult to conclude that the Iraqi intelligence service was not aware of their activities.

Unless you wish to argue that the Constitution of the United States laid out a system of government that can accurately be described as a dictatorship, then the application of constitutional Presidential power is not dictatorial.

I cannot ignore this...

1) G Tenet publically came on TV (Russert) and admitted what Mantis pointed out. You choose a few lines from a 300 page book as the ONLY valid fact and argument for this matter???
I also founbd these comments that all have good points: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0209-02.htm

Here is the transcript from the Meet the Press: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18416169/

Here is one of Bush's lies, that you will probably blame on bad intel:
"PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons, and he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon."

He's nowhere saying that they only think this is the case, but assures that IS the case.

Later, down, we show Chaney actually blaming the action (Iraq) on Tenet now...

Finally -- the dictatorship. So, if it fits to our system, then it must be the only acceptable way. However, when others do the same thing, but do not kiss our asses -- we call them either dictatorship regimes or COmmunists, or...

Adios now

[325 Baller]

So dr325i, if you hate this country you live in as much as you have described in the above posts, why dont you leave? Go to canada, mexico, or move over seas.

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by 325 Baller

So dr325i, if you hate this country you live in as much as you have described in the above posts, why dont you leave? Go to canada, mexico, or move over seas.

that's a very silly and absurd statement. No one said they hate this country. I hate to see this country get behind, and I think it is since we elected the current administration. When we criticize governments that does not mean we hate the countries, or the people, or even the governments. but it means we have concerned, and our patriotic duty makes us say what we believe.

BTW, i am not american. I mean i was not born here and do not have a citizenship. But I came here to this country to enjoy things that I am watching them disappear on a daily basis. Maybe you do not realize it, but for me, since i came from outside, i see a lot of difference in this country in the past like 6 or 7 years.

No offense to you, but this logic of "go back where you came from" is the max ignorance one can exercise!

please dont take any of my words as personal offense, and if you are offended I apologize because it's not what i intend

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mantisG35

But I came here to this country to enjoy things that I am watching them disappear on a daily basis. Maybe you do not realize it, but for me, since i came from outside, i see a lot of difference in this country in the past like 6 or 7 years.

Would you please expand on this?

What is disappearing?

What differences do you see?

[325 Baller]

I never said go back to where you came from?

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by 325 Baller

I never said go back to where you came from?

Not explicitly. you practically told him to move out of the country, which is even worse, because he might have been born here just like you have

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by 325 Baller

I never said go back to where you came from?

Ahm...should I even answer this stpid comment...
And, by the way, did I ever say I hated the USA?
Did I ever say anything bad about Bush Sr, Or Reagan, or Kennedy, or...
It is the current MOB that is killing this country and sinking it deeper daily with no clear (ar any) reasonable plan for the future...

And, yes, I do hav a dual citizenship, so if the shit hits the fan, I could...return...

What about you?
How would you survive if they turn you electricity off for 10 hours/day, if you had to wait inline for milk? Those are the days that (hopefully not) may be on horizon...probably not for you, but for your kids...if we continuo on this path...

[BMW F22]

I was watching the Tonight Show last night and Chris Rock was on it. When Jay asked him "what do you think of Obama? Do you think America is ready for him?" and Chris Rock answered "Is America ready for a black president? Well we just had a retarded one, a black president is surely acceptable." I found that hilarious.

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Would you please expand on this?

What is disappearing?

What differences do you see?

the least is multiplying school tuition, much more restricted financial aid, and the most is pretty much no freedom of speech due to patriot act

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by BMWE90

I was watching the Tonight Show last night and Chris Rock was on it. When Jay asked him "what do you think of Obama? Do you think America is ready for him?" and Chris Rock answered "Is America ready for a black president? Well we just had a retarded one, a black president is surely acceptable." I found that hilarious.

Funny, but sadly, the effects of the retarded policy will be felt later...not now... Again, sadly, the retard will blame it on someone else, so...