[3002 tii]

Audi has few models that really look good to me but unfortunately none of them are their main sellers, ie the a4/6/8. I do like however the last RS4, current A3, A7 and R8 (realize the A3 is a big seller overseas). My gripe with their S models is that it doesn't look very different from their non-S models. In fact maybe it's because I've been out of the VW/Audi scene for so long but I can't even tell the difference between their S-line and S models (which is the equivalent of our M-sport and M models). At least in the latter, you can still tell the difference.

I went to an Audi dealer with a friend not too long ago and I have to say though, the Audi interiors are far nicer, both in quality/finish and layout. But in terms of performance and driving experience, I still give BMW the edge; I still think they are producing the best luxury sports cars out there. Let's just hope the X5M, X6M and GT models end where they began.

[JesterEXW]

Honestly, I could care less if any brand participates in any race event. Like others has already said, just because they do does not mean you are buying a race car. Just because I buy a Patriots jersey does not mean I can then throw a football like Tom Brady. To me you get much more for your money with BMW. M3 vs RS4 or A4 vs 328/335. The price differences are odd looking at what you receive. 335 and A4 basically same price category but what a power difference! Also, I think Audi styling is a bit bland outside their front ends and the R8. BMW looks sportier to me and more natural.

[PhilH]

Originally Posted by vwong

Maybe he wasn't used to the car yet.

Bingo. He wasn't...er...I wasn't comfortable with the car yet. There's lots of grip in the corners, but it's buried under more body roll than I like, which caused me to back off. I'm not good at high speeds with cars that have body roll, they feel spooky to me. That's why I got the coilovers for my E46. I'm also naturally cautious when learning a new track, so I shouldn't have been in the intermediate/advanced group for my first time at Lime Rock. I'm taking the S4 to at least a couple autocrosses this year to help me learn the limits of the car. I've been watching your youtube videos, it's obvious you've learned to drive the S4 the right way on the track. The C&D Lightning Lap times for the S4 vs the 335i are decent proof that the car isn't slow.

When I was at Summit Point and Jefferson with the S4 last year, I passed a lot more cars than I ever did in my old E46 330i, because I know those tracks well. As a daily driver, the S4 is easily the best car I've ever owned. Awesome engine, lots of toys, and great ride/handling balance for the street (plus it has a spare tire and an oil dipstick ).

However, I admit that for me, the E46 was still more fun on the track because it was lighter, and RWD, so I could play with oversteer easier. I'm looking forward to getting a Cayman or FR-S as a second car in a few years. The S4 is my sporty family car to hold me over until then.

[Shane550X]

I would only buy an Audi if the changed that stupid flip up sat nav screen. Looks aftermarkety and cheap. BMW all the way

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by PhilH

Bingo. He wasn't...er...I wasn't comfortable with the car yet. There's lots of grip in the corners, but it's buried under more body roll than I like, which caused me to back off. I'm not good at high speeds with cars that have body roll, they feel spooky to me. That's why I got the coilovers for my E46. I'm also naturally cautious when learning a new track, so I shouldn't have been in the intermediate/advanced group for my first time at Lime Rock. I'm taking the S4 to at least a couple autocrosses this year to help me learn the limits of the car. I've been watching your youtube videos, it's obvious you've learned to drive the S4 the right way on the track. The C&D Lightning Lap times for the S4 vs the 335i are decent proof that the car isn't slow.

When I was at Summit Point and Jefferson with the S4 last year, I passed a lot more cars than I ever did in my old E46 330i, because I know those tracks well. As a daily driver, the S4 is easily the best car I've ever owned. Awesome engine, lots of toys, and great ride/handling balance for the street (plus it has a spare tire and an oil dipstick ).

However, I admit that for me, the E46 was still more fun on the track because it was lighter, and RWD, so I could play with oversteer easier. I'm looking forward to getting a Cayman or FR-S as a second car in a few years. The S4 is my sporty family car to hold me over until then.

I stand corrected.

I thought when we were talking that he just couldn't go any faster. It turned out that he wasn't comfortable going any faster.

He did say that I have a knack for picking up tracks quickly and going fast.

[PhilH]

Yes, I was having a bad day, learning a track for the first time. Just to set the record straight, this was my 4th track day in the S4. I was fine at Summit Point, keeping up with a C6 Corvette, a 996 Porsche and a bunch of modified E46 M3s. It also rained that weekend, and I was able to feel like a hero by easily passing a Ferrari F458 Italia.

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by bmw3racer

m3 always wins out even on cars that cost twice as much however new M5 loses to audi and mercedes. what the heck is going on at BMW M division?

[ptack]

They've been told to focus their efforts on branding, not engineering.

[TVMA Doc]

Originally Posted by nickdpp

never like audi, alway support BMW, audi's interior design is rubbish (sorry audi fans)

I agree. I keep seeing car reviews blast the M3's interior, but I find it to be functional and a bit understated. I never saw the attraction that some have for the Audi or MB interiors.

[Cl0ud7]

Originally Posted by robbie_boy

And I really don't think the R8 is a Lambo in Audi clothing. Look at the heart of the car the engine. Its a Audi built engine,

Depends which R8 you're referring. The R8 V10 is a de-tune Gallardo engine, FYI...

[fireline43]

It all depends on reliability between both of them for me. Paying more for a car, I want it to be reliable. Audi is known to not be reliable according to consumer reports. BMW is one step ahead in that category. I'd rather just buy a gli then an a4 also. It's the same chassis anyway.

[TSM330i]

Wow.

**************************car-videos-12...12-Audi-S4.htm

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by JesterEXW

Honestly, I could care less if any brand participates in any race event. Like others has already said, just because they do does not mean you are buying a race car. Just because I buy a Patriots jersey does not mean I can then throw a football like Tom Brady. To me you get much more for your money with BMW. M3 vs RS4 or A4 vs 328/335. The price differences are odd looking at what you receive. 335 and A4 basically same price category but what a power difference! Also, I think Audi styling is a bit bland outside their front ends and the R8. BMW looks sportier to me and more natural.

You're not buying a race car, but you are buying innovation that will eventually make it to their production cars. The technology and amount of engineering put into racing usually tells me that the company invests in their R&D and innovates. Audi is killing it right now and a lot of the TDI, E-Tron, and advanced quattro used in their LM-P1 cars will eventually make it into their production vehicles. Just read up on their latest R18 TDI E-Tron at Le Mans, it's amazing that they push 520hp from a V6 TDI engine with a single turbocharger. They also have electric technology which transfers electricity from braking and uses that power to propel the car out of turns. It looks like they will have its 11th victory at Le Mans this year with 6 hours left out of 24 hrs and Audi is currently 1,2,3,4 and looking to clean sweep the field. Porsche and Ferrari got its reputation from racing and many of its performance engineering is due to innovation built for the race track.

BTW: 335 and A4 is not the same price, perhaps when you compare leases, but MSRP-to-MSRP, they are not.

[Lynn_228i]

I tested both and I just felt the BMW 128i was more fun to drive and I fit into it better with the best visibility and handling.

[micosilver]

I used to sell Audi/VW, and now I am with BMW, so I have seen it from both sides.

I usually tell my customer that shop both that bottom line is which one they like better after seeing and driving both side by side, this is the true test. Other differences are marginal, even the price - yes, BMW leases better, but people that can afford one - most likely can comfortable afford the other.

My one gripe with Audi is their obsession with having the latest and the greatest technology, because technology gets old, but true style doesn't. Someone already mentioned pop-up navigation. Another example it the LED lights: they were super-cool in 2009, now Hyuinday Veloster has the same lights as Audi A8. How is it going to look in a couple of years from now? They will have to come up with something even more spectacular, and there is no end to this race.

[Freon]

If Company A spends $50 million a year in racing who is to say that Company B spending $50 million in more direct consumer-oriented R&D isn't servicing their customers better or producing a better product?

I prefer more direct measures. I wouldn't buy a car because the manufacturer races. If that truly trickles down and makes a better car, than show me it is a better car. Don't point to racing as proof that the car is better.

[WilliCO]

I've had an '87 Audi 4000s and an '04 allroad, and also an '01 X5 and now I have an '05 545. I drove all of them to above 80,000 miles, and the 545 has 74,000 right now.

This is a pretty wide span of years, and I assume all car manufacturers are constantly improving. I will say, though, that both Audis became much more expensive to maintain down the stretch, and the materials in their interiors became much more tired as the car aged, compared to the BMWs.

There are a couple design choices Audi has made that are guaranteed to contribute to higher maintenance costs, as well - the engines are belt-driven and IIRC they have to pull the engine out to replace the timing belt. That job was $2500 on our allroad. The suspension engineering was questionable on that car as well, and most of us who owned them saw ruptured suspension airbags between 70,000 and 100,000 miles, which were expensive to fix. My 4000 had lots of odd electrical issues that never went away.

I sold my X5 at 90,000 miles. It used to go through exhaust O2 sensors faster than it should have, but aside from that it was trouble-free. As for the 545, any coolant system issues it may have are yet to come, but until they do come, it has been very trouble free also. And, approaching 8 years old (9/04 in-service), the paint and interior surfaces still look new.

So, racing heritage aside, I think BMW is a better choice for long-term ownership based on my own experience. I usually buy CPO and hold long, but I would probably only lease an Audi. Then again I might not because I'd be able to get a lot more BMW for the same monthly rate.

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

I've had an '87 Audi 4000s and an '04 allroad, and also an '01 X5 and now I have an '05 545. I drove all of them to above 80,000 miles, and the 545 has 74,000 right now.

This is a pretty wide span of years, and I assume all car manufacturers are constantly improving. I will say, though, that both Audis became much more expensive to maintain down the stretch, and the materials in their interiors became much more tired as the car aged, compared to the BMWs.

There are a couple design choices Audi has made that are guaranteed to contribute to higher maintenance costs, as well - the engines are belt-driven and IIRC they have to pull the engine out to replace the timing belt. That job was $2500 on our allroad. The suspension engineering was questionable on that car as well, and most of us who owned them saw ruptured suspension airbags between 70,000 and 100,000 miles, which were expensive to fix. My 4000 had lots of odd electrical issues that never went away.

I sold my X5 at 90,000 miles. It used to go through exhaust O2 sensors faster than it should have, but aside from that it was trouble-free. As for the 545, any coolant system issues it may have are yet to come, but until they do come, it has been very trouble free also. And, approaching 8 years old (9/04 in-service), the paint and interior surfaces still look new.

So, racing heritage aside, I think BMW is a better choice for long-term ownership based on my own experience. I usually buy CPO and hold long, but I would probably only lease an Audi. Then again I might not because I'd be able to get a lot more BMW for the same monthly rate.

An '87 4000 and an 04 All Road - That's a long time ago and times have changed. Unfortunately, I don't think many people own BMW's for that long any more and lease them for 2-3 years tops. Just read the e90 forums and see how many people couldn't even get past 1000 miles in their BMW before going through multiple HPFP's and other electrical gremlins. German cars aren't the best when it comes to quality control and there will be a many that are good, but some will also be rotten. The fact that BMW sells more in the U.S. inflates the perception that there are so many bad ones out there.

[HotIce]

Honestly, if anyone is getting closer to overtaking BMW, it's Mercedes-Benz. Audi still has a ways to go, I think. Still, nothing drives like a BMW....for now.

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by Freon

If Company A spends $50 million a year in racing who is to say that Company B spending $50 million in more direct consumer-oriented R&D isn't servicing their customers better or producing a better product?

I prefer more direct measures. I wouldn't buy a car because the manufacturer races. If that truly trickles down and makes a better car, than show me it is a better car. Don't point to racing as proof that the car is better.

Not saying that one is better than the other, but focus and priorities will be different. Spending $50 million in making foot sensors to open the trunk and other comfort amenities vs. an AWD torque vectoring differential geared for performance, you take your pick when buying a premium sports car. But it all depends on your priority and preference, one could be better than the other.

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by Rated ///M

Honestly, if anyone is getting closer to overtaking BMW, it's Mercedes-Benz. Audi still has a ways to go, I think. Still, nothing drives like a BMW....for now.

MB vs. BMW badge wars - The fight over luxury brand recognition. BMW going softer and is trying to appeal more towards luxury while continuing to raise its prices to win status against MB.

Audi is doing the right thing by making its higher engine models into S lines and giving its owners a little something more, but not going all out similar to BMW's M or MB's AMG line. They have limited production RS models to compete, but //M and AMG are mostly status symbols. Big ass coupes, sedans, suv's, and cross-overs with ridiculous performance specs.

I don't understand it when I see people drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, Range Rover Sport HSE, X6M, X5M, S/E/G/M class AMG's, M / AMG verts ... it's like saying, I own one because I can afford to and I want to show you that I can. If you're going to own a sports car, get a proper one. Get a nice SUV on the side for utility.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 1BMW335

An '87 4000 and an 04 All Road - That's a long time ago and times have changed. Unfortunately, I don't think many people own BMW's for that long any more and lease them for 2-3 years tops.

Times have changed, yet they haven't. Audis are still belt-driven and, as I understand it, the engines must be lifted for a timing belt change. That's only one example, but I do know that my indy mechanic grudgingly approves of my BMW habit and talks me away from Audi whenever he can.

I haven't seen statistics for lease versus buy on BMWs recently. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that short-term leasing has overtaken long term ownership. Still, the most economical way to own an expensive German car is to buy CPO at about 2 years old and hold until about 90,000 miles. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by Rated ///M

Honestly, if anyone is getting closer to overtaking BMW, it's Mercedes-Benz. Audi still has a ways to go, I think. Still, nothing drives like a BMW....for now.

Agree; I find myself looking at the new MB models more than Audis. I like Audis but I don't trust them.