[Neurorad]

Originally Posted by drkeng

Gotta give another vote for seatbelts.
I see some trauma now, but saw a ton in my 10 years at a western suburb trauma center (with helicopter) and have quite a collection of broken necks and head trauma (neurorad, too). Recently had a great case of atlanto-occipital dissociation (that's when your head dislocates from your neck--patient survived just long enough to get CT scans, then expired, as expected); will try to find the images in our PACS and try to post. You could post x-rays/CT without violating HIPAA as long as there's no name.

This is an old case I had handy on my PC, from residency. Most kids with occipito-atlantal dissociation injuries, these days, live; I think we're just detecting subtle AOD injuries more often. Keng, where did you do residency/fellowship?

No patient information on this one, either. Joke advert for a friend recruiting for a trucking company. Real CT scout image, though. "I was just minding my own business..."



Predetermined destiny...is childish, magical thinking. Wake up, grow up.

[ChadE]

Originally Posted by Neurorad

Predetermined destiny...is childish, magical thinking. Wake up, grow up

I am awake and I am grown up, theres nothing childish about it, its a belief I have. I don't go knocking your believes and what not, I know its not a very realistic belief to have but its the way i feel. Im not trying to start an argument or get this thread riled up i just posted how i felt about the situation. Thanks

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by scottwww

I tend to go along with freedom, but on this I tend to disagree.

Driving a car is a priviledge, not a right. This is why you must be licensed to drive.

Like it or not, we all pay for people who don't comply with this law (whether that is insurance rates or government hand-outs). Since I am helping to pay for your ignorance when you suffer from it, I have some degree of say about the legality of what you do. (This can extend to much more than seatbelts.)

If you don't want legal intervention to force your hand to belt-up, then change how the cost is spread around so that others don't have to pay for your poor choices.

Gun ownership is a right, but in MA you need a license to own/carry a gun... You have to abide by the gun laws and if you don’t, they will revoke your right. Free speech you say? Look at Don Imus... like it or not you should be able to voice your opinions. But he's in trouble... That’s different you say..? OK, how about the whole reason for that right. We wanted to say that the current religion/king sucked!!!! Does that make those who said it guilty of a hate crime?

So right vs. privilege is now a mute point...

So, with the rest that you wrote, I want you not to smoke, drink, bicycle, ski, etc as you might get hurt and thus pass on the cost of your injuries on society. Can you if you have insurance? You'd think so, but your injuries drive up the cost of healthcare. Thus the next time you're sick/hurt etc from ANY non necessary activity, you pass on the burden to the rest of us via increased insurance costs. And don’t even THINK of eating fast food for lunch or getting cancer. I don’t want to pay for your heart attack or chemotherapy...

How about all the boy racers here on the forum? You wear your seatbelt, but you sometimes crash the car right? Well that drives up premiums for the rest of us as the car needs to be fixed, and your only going to have pay the deductible right? And a slight increase in your next premium.

AND we have a ‘kill story’ forum… Can we have an I drive like an ass on public roads, but I wear my seatbelt forum?

NOTE: I’m NOT saying anything against racing on the street or track. Just pointing out an irony here…

As for fate, BS! It does not exist… Otherwise god or whom/ whatever decided that some guy (me) was going to live his life in such a way that some day I’d end up with a BMW? This had to be pre-determined from creation as all the events leading up to the BMW company creation would have to have been drawn out right from day one of the human race… Or wait… The creation of earth… If we did not have iron on this planet, we might not have cars…

Bring it on!

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

Gun ownership is a right, but in MA you need a license to own/carry a gun... You have to abide by the gun laws and if you don’t, they will revoke your right. Free speech you say? Look at Don Imus... like it or not you should be able to voice your opinions. But he's in trouble... That’s different you say..? OK, how about the whole reason for that right. We wanted to say that the current religion/king sucked!!!! Does that make those who said it guilty of a hate crime?

So right vs. privilege is now a mute point...

So, with the rest that you wrote, I want you not to smoke, drink, bicycle, ski, etc as you might get hurt and thus pass on the cost of your injuries on society. Can you if you have insurance? You'd think so, but your injuries drive up the cost of healthcare. Thus the next time you're sick/hurt etc from ANY non necessary activity, you pass on the burden to the rest of us via increased insurance costs. And don’t even THINK of eating fast food for lunch or getting cancer. I don’t want to pay for your heart attack or chemotherapy...

How about all the boy racers here on the forum? You wear your seatbelt, but you sometimes crash the car right? Well that drives up premiums for the rest of us as the car needs to be fixed, and your only going to have pay the deductible right? And a slight increase in your next premium.

AND we have a ‘kill story’ forum… Can we have an I drive like an ass on public roads, but I wear my seatbelt forum?

NOTE: I’m NOT saying anything against racing on the street or track. Just pointing out an irony here…

As for fate, BS! It does not exist… Otherwise god or whom/ whatever decided that some guy (me) was going to live his life in such a way that some day I’d end up with a BMW? This had to be pre-determined from creation as all the events leading up to the BMW company creation would have to have been drawn out right from day one of the human race… Or wait… The creation of earth… If we did not have iron on this planet, we might not have cars…

Bring it on!

Wow. That was all over the place. I am not certain where you are being sarcastic, and ultimately what is your point of view on seat belt laws.

I tend to see it as when the public has to pay for something, the public has some say in what is to be done with the money and what needs to be done to control how much is to be spent. When the public isn't to foot the bill or the consequences, this is where more freedom is possible.

With freedom comes responsibility for bearing the cost of freedom. If you want me and everyone to pay the cost (or to be liable), then you give up some freedom.

This should apply to most things. If we were all able to agree on this premise, then the interesting part would be deciding where is the balance between freedom and restraint. If we eliminated any and all seatbelt requirements/laws/regulations then there should be no liability of any kind for the public when someone exercises their freedom to not use a seatbelt.

It's just like if somebody wants to live off the dole, they need to be accountable to the public to do these various things to ultimately get them off the dole, pay their own way, and pay for others who see some bad times.

If we pay $200 billion for Hurricane Katrina relief, we should have some say about what is to be done to avoid such a catastrophe in the future. And we should expect those who receive relief to help when an earthquake rocks California.

I hope that makes sense.

[chris_1001]

Yeah, I use a lot of sarcasm, but it/I was serious...

First point was rights, freedoms, privileges and the rules surrounding them are no longer clear and well defined anymore. So the right or privilege of driving is not an issue of seatbelts.

Second point was ANY injury or cost (an accident with damage to a car only) bared by insurance gets passed along. So if you get sick with the flu and go to the doc, I have to subsidize it. And if I don’t get sick, I don't benefit from my premiums, you do. you paid a $50 co pay (and 12 x your monthly premium ) for a $5000 worth of medical bills (say you broke a few bones falling down the stairs), any amount not paid by you is divided amongst the rest of us. I did not push you...

I agree on laws to protect others from others, but I do not agree on laws to protect ourselves from our personal choices (someone is now going to bring up drugs i bet)...

As for relief funds, if I built my house on a "known" fault or in a flood zone, why should I expect you to pay for that? (I'm NOT trying to lessen what happened, just making a point).

You would chip in (I would/did too) to help those in need, even if New Orleans was below sea level and that this was inevitable... But you'd (not saying you said that, just saying what others inferred) let me die on the side of the road for not wearing a seat belt or would not want to help me financially?

Now to answer your question on seat belt laws...

I'm 100% against the law for them for anyone over 18. If you can vote, smoke and die or kill for your country, you can choose to wear a seatbelt or not.

Are they a good idea? YES, 100% do I want to wear one? NO! Am I wearing one, YES because my car nags me to, something my ex wife and many girlfriends and friends have failed to do, nag me to the point that I will.

If I’m in your car and you ask me to, I will try to get out of it… If you insist that I do, I will. No argument… if you bring up the LAW I will debate you on the LAW and not on the value of them.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

As for relief funds, if I built my house on a "known" fault or in a flood zone, why should I expect you to pay for that? (I'm NOT trying to lessen what happened, just making a point).

This is where libertarianism breaks down for me. It's idealism.

Yes, if people were perfectly informed, had the means to inform themselves, had the education to inform themselves, had the financial wherewithal to act wisely on the information, etc., etc., etc., then, yes, maybe no one would live in a flood plain and we wouldn't have had so many people with no homes. If you don't care about the people with no homes because you think they're stupid for living there in the first place, then fine, keep on being a libertarian. I just think public policy should be based on actual human behavior not idealism.

-Dan

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by danimal

This is where libertarianism breaks down for me. It's idealism.

Yes, if people were perfectly informed, had the means to inform themselves, had the education to inform themselves, had the financial wherewithal to act wisely on the information, etc., etc., etc., then, yes, maybe no one would live in a flood plain and we wouldn't have had so many people with no homes. If you don't care about the people with no homes because you think they're stupid for living there in the first place, then fine, keep on being a libertarian. I just think public policy should be based on actual human behavior not idealism.

-Dan

That's what is great about the US (the way it was, not is). If you do something stupid you pay for it... Ignorance is no excuse... There are people who build houses on the beach. A hurricane comes in, blows it down, then the Ins. company writes a check to them and they rebuild on the same spot... HELLO!

It's like the woman who spilled McDonalds Coffee on herself and sued... If you are old enough to drive (she was at a drive through), you should know unless you ask for ice coffee, you will get HOT coffee. Coffee is normally served HOT. So unless she did not know anything about coffee and ordered it on a whim to try it, it’s her fault 100%.

If you live in CA you know there a potential for an earthquake. If you live in FL, you know you might be hit by a hurricane… If you live in the Midwest, you know you might have a tornado… If you don’t, then either you’re young (i.e. under 10) or you are severely uneducated or mentally incapacitated. I’d be shocked to find one person who is from CA her on the forums that did not know it has some sever earthquake zones. I’m from MA and I know this

No offence, but that seems a bit socialist... I'm responsible for others mistakes and shortcomings? I'm paraphrasing what you and others have said here... so bear with me...

It’s not idealism, or libertarianism, its common sense… WE as members of a civilized country should help out those in need. But we should do so by choice…

How many people can you find that said, I did help out the victims, I did so with my tax money, by now paying higher Ins. premiums and how many said I donated money/time/supplies…

We don’t live in a perfect world, and common sense does not apply most of the time but Natural Selection does… If you do something stupid, you should pay for it… Even if you did not know sticking a screwdriver in your eye can cause blindness

I don’t want to see people get hurt, and I see a lot of stupidity day to day… It’s a fact of life. Statistical FACT: 50 percent of the population are below average in any category (intelligence, driving ability, height, weight, income. etc)… So things are bound to happen…

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

We don’t live in a perfect world, and common sense does not apply most of the time but Natural Selection does… If you do something stupid, you should pay for it

I'd like to think the human race has moved beyond "survival of the fittest" to something a little more, well, humane. It seems like you're saying it's perfectly fine for people not to have adequate food, shelter, or health care because they didn't have the means, skills, or education to improve their own lot. I disagree. I think all well-intentioned human beings deserve a minimum standard of living. I'm not talking about home theater systems, granite counter tops, or BMWs, just the basic things a person needs to stay alive. That probably does make me socialistic. That's fine.

-Dan

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

That's what is great about the US (the way it was, not is). If you do something stupid you pay for it... Ignorance is no excuse... There are people who build houses on the beach. A hurricane comes in, blows it down, then the Ins. company writes a check to them and they rebuild on the same spot... HELLO!

It's like the woman who spilled McDonalds Coffee on herself and sued... If you are old enough to drive (she was at a drive through), you should know unless you ask for ice coffee, you will get HOT coffee. Coffee is normally served HOT. So unless she did not know anything about coffee and ordered it on a whim to try it, it’s her fault 100%.

If you live in CA you know there a potential for an earthquake. If you live in FL, you know you might be hit by a hurricane… If you live in the Midwest, you know you might have a tornado… If you don’t, then either you’re young (i.e. under 10) or you are severely uneducated or mentally incapacitated. I’d be shocked to find one person who is from CA her on the forums that did not know it has some sever earthquake zones. I’m from MA and I know this

No offence, but that seems a bit socialist... I'm responsible for others mistakes and shortcomings? I'm paraphrasing what you and others have said here... so bear with me...

It’s not idealism, or libertarianism, its common sense… WE as members of a civilized country should help out those in need. But we should do so by choice…

How many people can you find that said, I did help out the victims, I did so with my tax money, by now paying higher Ins. premiums and how many said I donated money/time/supplies…

We don’t live in a perfect world, and common sense does not apply most of the time but Natural Selection does… If you do something stupid, you should pay for it… Even if you did not know sticking a screwdriver in your eye can cause blindness

I don’t want to see people get hurt, and I see a lot of stupidity day to day… It’s a fact of life. Statistical FACT: 50 percent of the population are below average in any category (intelligence, driving ability, height, weight, income. etc)… So things are bound to happen…

I really could go along with most of that if everybody would accept responsibility for each other freely. You are your brother's keeper. With the large population in our cities, it is very easy for some to be forgotten and walked on while others gain through evil means.

The founders of the U.S. had great vision. They also lived in a day where perhaps people helped people personally. If it were possible to reverse the trend away from anonymous help for the unknown needy and replace it with "love your neighbor as yourself" then you would have something there.

With this type of society, we would have people acting more responsibly because they would have to answer to other people directly.

There would need to be an overwhelming willingness to give out of generosity rather than compulsion.

Part of the question is, "What comes first?"

With freedom, comes responsibility.

It seems that much of society has given up on responsibility, so they are more willing to give up their freedom than to start being responsible.

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by danimal

I'd like to think the human race has moved beyond "survival of the fittest" to something a little more, well, humane. It seems like you're saying it's perfectly fine for people not to have adequate food, shelter, or health care because they didn't have the means, skills, or education to improve their own lot. I disagree. I think all well-intentioned human beings deserve a minimum standard of living. I'm not talking about home theater systems, granite counter tops, or BMWs, just the basic things a person needs to stay alive. That probably does make me socialistic. That's fine.

-Dan

So you think that we should reward those that underachieve in some way? We should tell them its ok, stay on welfare, we have you covered? A person that has no ambition or drive to better themselves, that money and being taken care of is a right? That someone who has the opportunities to work hard, get an education or what, stay the way they are because someone else is paying then for being the way they are? What incentive does a poor person have if they are paid by the government in the form of food, welfare etc. That the government pays them more not for working harder, but by having another child...

Now, there ARE legitimate reasons for helping someone, BUT it should be temporary and NOT a way of life. If I gave you all that you need to survive, what more do you need and why bother doing anything? If I take it away, you now need to take care of yourself and work. That will give you the incentive to do something otherwise you'll be on the street. If your OK failing and letting yourself get to that point, you don’t deserve help.

Your comment of a minimum standard of living would suggest I can quit my job tomorrow and get free food and shelter once I run out of money so that my needs are met and I don’t ever have to work again... how can that benefit society? I’m not contributing, but taking away from society

We have become SOFT and WEAK as a country. Things are getting worse, not better... We need to have some people stumble and fall, to remind ourselves life is tough, never fair and we CAN make a difference if we try.

Look at Russia, did communism work? All the basic needs were met, hell free education. These are the best educated poor people in the world, did it work... NO! Why did the US flourish? We worked hard and were rewarded for that...

I worked my ass off my whole life and as a reward I have a house, a BMW and other stuff. If I was lazy and unmotivated, I should be on the street. You might say it's because I came from a good family or I'm well educated or make some argument like that... That’s might not be the case. I wanted to reach a goal, and I did it all by myself.

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by scottwww

With freedom, comes responsibility.

It seems that much of society has given up on responsibility, so they are more willing to give up their freedom than to start being responsible.

Bravo! Well said!

Ben Franklin said

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

[ska///235i]

this thread was intended to remind us to buckle up

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by ska

this thread was intended to remind us to buckle up

If you buy a 2007 BMW, your car will remind you and the point of it being law is irrelevant...

So, if you have a 2006 or earlier BMW, buckle up because YOU think it’s a good idea. NOT because of big brother…

If you have someone under 18 in your car, MAKE them buckle up…

And I will whine and bitch every time that frigging chime goes off!!!!!!!!

Peace! (and freedom!!!!!)

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

If I gave you all that you need to survive, what more do you need and why bother doing anything?

Because I want more out of life than mere survival? Also, just because I think all human beings should have their basic survival needs met, it doesn't mean I think everything is hunky dory with the way the system works. The reason the government writes checks is because it's a whole lot cheaper and easier than doing something meaningful, like educating people, training people, finding people jobs, etc., not because it's in any way motivating or encourages people to better themselves. But I will tell you this: I don't see a lot of companies hiring people off the street.

-Dan

[hks786]

Originally Posted by chade7320

I am awake and I am grown up, theres nothing childish about it, its a belief I have. I don't go knocking your believes and what not, I know its not a very realistic belief to have but its the way i feel. Im not trying to start an argument or get this thread riled up i just posted how i felt about the situation. Thanks

I also share this belief. I wouldn't say its not realistic. To me it is realistic, but life also revolves around the choices you make...

[chris_1001]

Originally Posted by danimal

Because I want more out of life than mere survival? Also, just because I think all human beings should have their basic survival needs met, it doesn't mean I think everything is hunky dory with the way the system works. The reason the government writes checks is because it's a whole lot cheaper and easier than doing something meaningful, like educating people, training people, finding people jobs, etc., not because it's in any way motivating or encourages people to better themselves. But I will tell you this: I don't see a lot of companies hiring people off the street.

-Dan

There are a LOT of people who are merely content to exist. I assume since you have a BMW and not a 10 year old kia or something that you are educated, a hard worker, (maybe lucky), or something and not content so sit an suck off the system. You even said you want more, and it seems like you made it... But not everyone is ambitious.

The government provides FREE education from K-12. And it's REQUIRED that children under 16 go to school by law. This IS a good law, because we need a minimum level of education if we want to be a strong nation. (I won’t go on, on this point).

Not everyone can be a rocket scientist; we still need low skilled workers to do the menial tasks. I won’t provide any examples lest I offend someone here.

So, if we all are by law required to go to school for a minimum period of time. That education is FREE. the state will put you in a foster home and give you the basics until you get to age 16 in the case you come from a bad home or your parents are dead etc.. That’s a good program. I'm all for it. If at 16 you want to drop out and do whatever, you want.. That is your right. But if you make that choice, live with it. The government tried, you did little with it, now you’re cut off and you have to deal with it. The government can't keep helping someone who does not care about themselves and they should be cut off to fall on their face. If that does not motivate them, nothing will... I'm all for people who use the system to help themselves. But if you don’t, we don’t need you and should not help you… (sorry if that seems tough, but that person “gave up”).

Getting a job is not a right... If I have a position available, I will hire the best candidate available. And that person must be willing to work hard, learn and do a great job. So I would not hire someone who is content to exist and will only do enough to keep their job...

If someone wants to be lazy and not do much with their lives, fine. But I’m not going to subsidize it!!!!!!!!!!

And if someone does not want to wear their seatbelt, fine as well… Or even smoke crack. Go for it… But the moment what you do hurts others, then you have crossed the line.

Your life, body and mind are all you own. You should have some control/say over/in it.

The government will give you the basics, but you have to do something with it or you deserve to fail…

Life is not fair… Too bad we don’t live in paradise… So embrace this unfortunate reality and do the best you can for YOU and live with your choices.

(Note seat belt comment above)

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

(Note seat belt comment above)

Okay, enough of hijacking this poor thread. I started a new one if you want to continue over there.

SEATBELTZ RULEZ

I would seriously wear a five-point harness if the car were engineered to have one.

-Dan