[oolas3]

Originally Posted by rex imperatur

Stop twisting facts. Model S P100D gets 315 miles per charge compared to BMW M5 338 miles per tank of gas. How's that for a comparison. I don't know where you get the 200 miles figure unless you're talking about the entry level 60 kWh that gets 210 miles. Furthermore, all cars driven hard will suffer in the range they achieve. That reality is as true to EV's as it is to ICE cars. 99% of the time, an EV owner will wake with a full charge. Now say you wake in the morning with 315 miles range on your car, under what circumstance will you, out of the blue, need to drive more than that unless you had planned it. If that should ever happen, I'm sure the Supercharger network can address that; or even Chademo quickcharge stations as Teslas have no problem using Chademos.

When Ludicrous speed upgrade was launched, Tesla had promised it to all about 20% faster acceleration to 155 mph, the performance models' top speed. Now with the P100D, that top end power is even more potent. What else need Tesla do to be taken seriously (2.5 0-60, mid 10 sec quarter mile, and quicker acceleration to top speed)? The car is surely not going to massage your feet.

Using your "logic" all the BMW guys would all be driving Dodge Hellcats.

[David70]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

X6M and other bimmer is still showing in my garage
I moved it to retired

I actually thought he was saying I was the troll since I was asking you about a car that was no longer showing.

Reality is I don't have a real problem with the car, just that it won't fit my lifestyle and my wife has no interest in dealing the downsides for where we live (no garage, plugging it in everyday, inconveniences of long distant travel), then I do find the Tesla hype irritating and think the car costs far too much money for what you get but then this is true of many luxury items that I don't care that much about.

I still never heard the answer but if you buy the $66k version or the $134k version are the only differences in the two the acceleration and range?

[bb1857]

Originally Posted by rex imperatur

Stop twisting facts. Model S P100D gets 315 miles per charge compared to BMW M5 338 miles per tank of gas. How's that for a comparison. I don't know where you get the 200 miles figure unless you're talking about the entry level 60 kWh that gets 210 miles. Furthermore, all cars driven hard will suffer in the range they achieve. That reality is as true to EV's as it is to ICE cars. 99% of the time, an EV owner will wake with a full charge. Now say you wake in the morning with 315 miles range on your car, under what circumstance will you, out of the blue, need to drive more than that unless you had planned it. If that should ever happen, I'm sure the Supercharger network can address that; or even Chademo quickcharge stations as Teslas have no problem using Chademos.

When Ludicrous speed upgrade was launched, Tesla had promised it to all about 20% faster acceleration to 155 mph, the performance models' top speed. Now with the P100D, that top end power is even more potent. What else need Tesla do to be taken seriously (2.5 0-60, mid 10 sec quarter mile, and quicker acceleration to top speed)? The car is surely not going to massage your feet.

The guy asks that last question with 2 posts on a BMW forum and drives a Mazda....I think the Tesla forums are awaiting you so you can tell them that you riled up the German fan club . I doubt anyone is taking you seriously at this point

[bb1857]

Originally Posted by David70

I still never heard the answer but if you buy the $66k version or the $134k version are the only differences in the two the acceleration and range?

Yup there are no interior differences if you select the upgraded interior on the less expensive one or the most expensive one. Paying for the hype of the marketing machine. Now they are doing a pretty good job with it so I can't fault them for it but no thanks for me either.

[oolas3]

Tesla will never be taken seriously by the enthusiast crowd without track times. Yes not everybody tracks, but it is one of the main standards by which performance cars are judged. There is a reason Ford, Dodge, Chevy, and Cadillac send their sports cars to the ring to be timed.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

Tesla will never be taken seriously by the enthusiast crowd without track times. Yes not everybody tracks, but it is one of the main standards by which performance cars are judged. There is a reason Ford, Dodge, Chevy, and Cadillac send their sports cars to the ring to be timed.

I'm definitely fine with that along with thousands of BMW converts
Tesla never said they wanted to build track car
They wanted to build the best car in the world
Consumer reports indicated that
No car is perfect at everything, there is always trade off.
It's great on ride comfort with adjustable air suspension. It's good at taking corners. It's the best at saving fuel. It's the best in luggage space and utility. It's this quickest accelerating car or SUV in the world. It packs a lot of convenience features that no other cars have and I really value those.
The BMW crowd should realize that there are cars out there that might be a little better certain aspects then just track time.
Do I want my car to be a track car? The answer is no. I want my car to be perfect for everything else. If I wanted one track car I wouldn't be looking at five or seven series BMW, S class Mercedes or any large sedan for that matter. It would probably be Porsche. But I would still prefer something small and electric

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I'm definitely fine with that along with thousands of BMW converts
Tesla never said they wanted to build track car
They wanted to build the best car in the world
Consumer reports indicated that
No car is perfect at everything, there is always trade off.
It's great on ride comfort with adjustable air suspension. It's good at taking corners. It's the best at saving fuel. It's the best in luggage space and utility. It's this quickest accelerating car or SUV in the world. It packs a lot of convenience features that no other cars have and I really value those.
The BMW crowd should realize that there are cars out there that might be a little better certain aspects then just track time.
Do I want my car to be a track car? The answer is no. I want my car to be perfect for everything else. If I wanted one track car I wouldn't be looking at five or seven series BMW, S class Mercedes or any large sedan for that matter. It would probably be Porsche. But I would still prefer something small and electric

Maybe not you but seems like a lot of Tesla owners think fast 0-60 times = sports car. No, no, and no.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

Tesla will never be taken seriously by the enthusiast crowd without track times. Yes not everybody tracks, but it is one of the main standards by which performance cars are judged. There is a reason Ford, Dodge, Chevy, and Cadillac send their sports cars to the ring to be timed.

LOL. Proof that you just don't get it.

I couldn't give two shits about what a Tesla would do on a track, and frankly, anyone who does is probably just a keyboard-racer. They could release official track times on every course out there and it wouldn't change how "serious" I take them. Maybe I'm not an enthusiast, but I've been active in HPDEs for over 16 years and currently track my 488, Z06, and GT3RS.

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL. Proof that you just don't get it.

I couldn't give two shits about what a Tesla would do on a track, and frankly, anyone who does is probably just a keyboard-racer. They could release official track times on every course out there and it wouldn't change how "serious" I take them. Maybe I'm not an enthusiast, but I've been active in HPDEs for over 16 years and currently track my 488, Z06, and GT3RS.

Yes, you're an enthusiast if you track those cars but what does that have to do with Tesla? Follow along with us here. Try to pay attention. Lol. I'm trying to explain why Tesla is not taken serious by most enthusiasts as an enthusiast's car. My reply was in response to a guy spouting off 0-60 times.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

New P90D traps at 122mph concistently, while stock M5 barelly crosses 120 mark and that is about full second later even with competition pack
P100D will blow this out of the water
Being the quickest production car in the world now, try finding a better bargain

"In the world" lmao. Well if it's anything like the P90D, it still won't be the "quickest" anything. In your Internet world maybe the Tesla is quick in a straight line from 0 to the speed limit, but in the real world where I race, the P90D is quick but no where near as quick as some cars close to it's price range like the 991 Turbo S or GTR. I have raced the P90D in my 991 and beat it to 60 by a large margin on an even launch and by the end of the quarter mile when I'm over 130mph it's a little spec in the mirror.

Don't even go there with the Porsche 918 0-60 in 2.2 seconds or the Veyron or some of the other hyper cars.

Maybe the P100D will be the quickest car 0-20mph. If that happens congratulations to you Tesla fanboys. Most of us want a car that does more than be good at one attribute.

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

"In the world" lmao. Well if it's anything like the P90D, it still won't be the "quickest" anything. In your Internet world maybe the Tesla is quick in a straight line from 0 to the speed limit, but in the real world where I race, the P90D is quick but no where near as quick as some cars close to it's price range like the 991 Turbo S or GTR. I have raced the P90D in my 991 and beat it to 60 by a large margin on an even launch and by the end of the quarter mile when I'm over 130mph it's a little spec in the mirror.

Don't even go there with the Porsche 918 0-60 in 2.2 seconds or the Veyron or some of the other hyper cars.

Maybe the P100D will be the quickest car 0-20mph. If that happens congratulations to you Tesla fanboys. Most of us want a car that does more than be good at one attribute.

Not to mention in any corner or turn, you would absolutely demolish these Tesla clowns. In their internet world, every street and track only has straights.

[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Are Tesla owners turning into the next coming of the GT-R fanboy? I'm starting to cringe more and more.

Haha, yeah I was just thinking that. Reminds me of 2007-2008. Good times. Lolz were had.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

Maybe not you but seems like a lot of Tesla owners think fast 0-60 times = sports car. No, no, and no.

I think tesla themselves even think that.
When it was launched, the marketing team was quick to market the car as the car that equals the legendary mclaren F1 (official tesla statement). What a joke. As if the F1 was build for the purpose of the 0-60 time. Might as well have said that it surpassed the mclaren F1 because it has more storage space. That would be totally true, but also totally irrelevant in that scope of things. The mclaren was build to go really fast around a track, unrivalled handling, and did so with great succes, probably winning every class it entered. That's what's made it's name. And the tesla? there is none, no info from the factory what so ever about track performance. And in that way its pretty unique, being the only car where performance is so well boasted by its marketing team but being so quiet about the handling of the car. When a performance bmw, merc, caddilac, nissan, whatever is launched, first thing people look out for are track times, to see proof of how well the car handles. 0-60 times are for people who read the magazines but never dare to really challenge a car (or themselves as a driver for that matter). Maybe thats the group tesla's appeal to.


Mercedes build the sls amg electric drive a few years back. Obviously in smaller numbers and thus much more expensive, but that showed that it was truely possible. It did the ring in sub 8 minutes (7:56). And that probably is down on acceleration (0-62 in 3,9) and similar weigth to the tesla. So how come the fastest tesla time i've seen to date on the ring is 'only' 8:50? Not even that, thats a btg time where the merc did that sub 8 min for a full lap! (thats 10sec difference or so?)
So if there's one electric car that might be worthy of being compared to the mclaren F1, its surely the AMG sls electric drive, not the tesla I think? (although the mclaren is still way way faster around a track...)

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think tesla themselves even think that.
When it was launched, the marketing team was quick to market the car as the car that equals the legendary mclaren F1 (official tesla statement). What a joke. As if the F1 was build for the purpose of the 0-60 time. Might as well have said that it surpassed the mclaren F1 because it has more storage space. That would be totally true, but also totally irrelevant in that scope of things. The mclaren was build to go really fast around a track, unrivalled handling, and did so with great succes, probably winning every class it entered. That's what's made it's name. And the tesla? there is none, no info from the factory what so ever about track performance. And in that way its pretty unique, being the only car where performance is so well boasted by its marketing team but being so quiet about the handling of the car. When a performance bmw, merc, caddilac, nissan, whatever is launched, first thing people look out for are track times, to see proof of how well the car handles. 0-60 times are for people who read the magazines but never dare to really challenge a car (or themselves as a driver for that matter). Maybe thats the group tesla's appeal to.


Mercedes build the sls amg electric drive a few years back. Obviously in smaller numbers and thus more expensive, but that showed that it was truely possible. It did the ring in sub 8 minutes (7:56). And that probably is down on acceleration (0-62 in 3,9) and similar weigth to the tesla. So how come the fastest tesla time i've seen to date on the ring is 'only' 8:50? Not even that, thats a btg time where the merc did that sub 8 min for a full lap! (thats 10sec difference or so?)
So if there's one electric car that might be worthy of being compared to the mclaren F1, its surely the AMG sls electric drive, not the tesla I think? (although the mclaren is still way way faster around a track...)

Wow F1 in marketing materials. What a joke! These Elon Musk boot lickers can't think for themselves and actually believe this stuff.

[StatenEye]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Are Tesla owners turning into the next coming of the GT-R fanboy? I'm starting to cringe more and more.

Yes and its awful. The only reason i hate Tesla is bc of the fan boys. The car is also pretty ugly too.

[AndreyATC]

I'm not surprised of this much hate
Keep drinking your BMW koolaid. Your narrow mind set won't let you see pass the roundel badge

Mods should probably delete this thread, as the information on new Teslas only sparks one train of thought here
Bravo

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I'm not surprised of this much hate
Keep drinking your BMW koolaid. Your narrow mind set won't let you see pass the roundel badge

Mods should probably delete this thread, as the information on new Teslas only sparks one train of thought here
Bravo

We love P cars too. Many of us have enjoyed makes other than the roundel.

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Yes and its awful. The only reason i hate Tesla is bc of the fan boys. The car is also pretty ugly too.

Th model X is the worse in terms of ugly. 130k+ for something that looks like an effeminate egg.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by rex imperatur

Stop twisting facts. Model S P100D gets 315 miles per charge compared to BMW M5 338 miles per tank of gas. How's that for a comparison. I don't know where you get the 200 miles figure unless you're talking about the entry level 60 kWh that gets 210 miles. Furthermore, all cars driven hard will suffer in the range they achieve. That reality is as true to EV's as it is to ICE cars. 99% of the time, an EV owner will wake with a full charge. Now say you wake in the morning with 315 miles range on your car, under what circumstance will you, out of the blue, need to drive more than that unless you had planned it. If that should ever happen, I'm sure the Supercharger network can address that; or even Chademo quickcharge stations as Teslas have no problem using Chademos.

When Ludicrous speed upgrade was launched, Tesla had promised it to all about 20% faster acceleration to 155 mph, the performance models' top speed. Now with the P100D, that top end power is even more potent. What else need Tesla do to be taken seriously (2.5 0-60, mid 10 sec quarter mile, and quicker acceleration to top speed)? The car is surely not going to massage your feet.

Even the ludicrous speed model would hold a candle to my e93 over 30 mph. Lol.
As for range, an M5 is not an example of a typical car. In its tiny niche of 100k cars which you refuse to leave, the tesla is drab and boring. In the real world of 30k cars it can't compete. Range of a Chevy malibu for example is about 500 miles. And I don't go to sleep when I hit 300 miles. I arrive at my destination. Then a few hours later I go back. 99% of places I go do not have a way for me to charge. So what am I supposed to do? Beg to use someone's outlet? Park 10 miles away and wait?

I'm saying the tesla and electrics will never be mass market until these flaws are overcome. There are 30k options avaluable for years. Yet electrics still only acount for 0.4% of total car sales worldwide. For something available for the better part of a decade, they sure aren't winning over the masses.

And if you think an ipad with tires is more desirable than an M5 or S63, wtf planet are you from?

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

Th model X is the worse in terms of ugly. 130k+ for something that looks like an effeminate egg.

Stop being kind.

[phantomF80]

This is an interesting discussion. We are actually in the process of swapping out our F80 for a Model X and an i3. F80 is the fastest car I have ever driven, but it's also the hardest car to enjoy and have fun with. It attracts a lot of attentions when trying to run the car loud, and often not the type of attention you want. Neither i3 nor Model X are anywhere as fast as the F80, but I can have tons of fun doing hard acceleration runs and no one will care a bit. I will miss F80 because it's an amazing piece of machinery, but I know I am going to enjoy having fun with EV's much more than F80 on daily basis.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by bb1857

I totally agree with you and your point actually makes my point more valid. He doesn't care about selling cars at a loss. He knows Wall Street will keep them propped up on the cult like following alone for many years which gives him time to validate and strengthen his proof of concept, which is that batteries are a very viable option for the future of the car and more(not today but getting close and not for everyone). Once he is happy with where the research is on the battery development I think you will see him dump the car company as fast as possible.

Think about it. Would you rather deal with the incredibly difficult pain in the ass consumer for each and every car sold or would you like to be the worlds largest battery supplier which is an industry that far exceeds that of the automobile industry? I'd take door number two every time and so would most smart businessmen. He will happily take every car companies money when it comes time for them to actually put a viable electric car out there and he will likely own nearly 100% of market share. I would call that absolute genius.

I'll admit I've not read every piece of literature on Tesla (Musk), but I have been interested in the cars since they've come out (the Lotus-based Tesla) and I'm pretty well read on the subject. I have seen this argument that Musk's real goal is conversion of the worlds ICE-powered fleet to electric. But to say Musk started out with no intent to produce electric cars profitably I think is BS and something Musk conjured up to excuse his inability to produce his electric cars profitably. He's now convinced investors that his real goal is to become the worlds largest battery manufacturer. But batteries for what? Electric cars? Home solar electric systems? Industrial plants? I'm not sure. But why would he need to start a car company just to make that point? He's losing multiples of millions of dollars a month. Profits not available to him to further his R&D on battery technology. He could have become an electric drivetrain supplier to the automotive industry and still made his point. Look at LG Chem. The Korean company that is GM's main supplier for the Bolt. LG doesn't make cars (even though it is an industrial giant) but it has its hand in some serious electric car development. Its battery technology developed in conjunction with GM (for the Volt and now Bolt) is more advanced than Tesla's. GM will beat Tesla to the market by 2 years with an "affordable" 200+ mile EV. While Musk was unveiling yet to be completed Tesla 3 design, GM weeks before was posting video of the first Bolts traveling down the (low-rate initial) production line. A stark contrast. It's possible Musk has bitten off more than he can chew.

Fundguy1 makes some very good points that after more than a decade, electric cars are less than 1% of the market. And that if fuel range and recharging times are not brought near to their ICE counterparts the market will remain small for electrics. However while electrics are not for everyone, they do have a place in the market, just as Ferrari and Lambo et al. do. The automobile replaced the horse as transportation because it was a better product at a lower operating cost; the electric car is not that as compared to the ICE-powered car. I am quite interested to see how the Bolt will do in the marketplace.

I'm not a believer that Musk's original ultimate goal was total battery domination rather than thinking he was going to build a populate the earth with affordable EVs and make a profit doing it. Building a car company just to perform a proof-of-concept (for a battery business) is a bit hard to swallow in my book. The investment in the Giga factory is independent from producing Tesla cars. If there is no real market for EVs then what is the point of building batteries for it? He could have built the Giga factory without ever producing one Tesla S, X, or 3.