Car and Driver - Exploring Why BMW Steering Feel No Longer Excels

Bosozoku · 07-21-2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

... I really feel like BMW M engineers scrapped a lot of the former EPS system and started over somehow for the M2.

Go Drive an M2. If you can find one !

production not limited ...

:

The M2 has by far the best iteration of EPS in a BMW. They did a good job finally of weighting the steering for nearly all situations, unlike my X1. ...

Very, very glad to hear that.
Thanks!

Efthreeoh · 07-21-2016, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

EPS isn't new to BMW. The e85 had EPS in 2003, that's 13+ years... No learning curve excuses here

You could argue the Z4 EPS is a completely different design since the E85/86 powers the steering shaft and not the steering rack. But I 100% agree. The F30 and ATS use the same EPS rack, but Cadillac manages to provide far better steering feel than the F30. Chassis and suspension design have a lot to do with steering feel, not just the EPS rack.

noro · 07-21-2016, 09:23 PM

I would argue that the wheel attempting to follow parallel groves in the pavement is a good thing. Case in point my ZHP does that and I feel like I always know what's going on. On the flip side my E92 335i would keep the wheel where I left it. The result is that I don't miss the E92 at all and now I am dreading selling the E46 ZHP away. I have never driven an F30 which is a car I plan to get so I have no idea what that feels like after the E92.

I also have a 72 2002 with no assist steering and I can tell you that under certain circumstances is feels ideal but for every day use it has a lot of discomforts to it.

my E30 M3 steering is likely to give a person an orgasm is best I can describe it... ZHP is very very close in terms of driving pleasure.

jbrucebmw · 07-21-2016, 09:57 PM

After buying or leasing new M3s and M5s for the last two decades, lack of steering feel is the number one reason I'm not excited about any of the current models. Even spending 3 days at the Nurburgring in a new M4 last summer did not make me excited about the car. Yes, its fast but I miss the feel.

I'd love to find a replacement for my E60 M5 and I don't mind turbos but the new M5 does not do it for me. I find myself lusting after e46 M3s that sit at a sweat spot of modern vs. steering and chassis feel.

My wife has a Tesla Model S P85 which is a great luxury transportation appliance. Its even faster around town than my M5. If I'm going to give up on feel, Tesla getting my money for a daily driver. I don't want to do that, but that's how BMW appears to be headed.

Blader · 07-21-2016, 11:00 PM

The reality is that any power steering insulates the driver from the steering.

You need to go and drive a Lotus Elise or Exige to recalibrate your idea of what steering feel really is all about.

As for powered steering the best I have driven is the Lotus Evora and while is is brilliant it is still not as good as the unassisted steering.

Rupes · 07-22-2016, 12:53 AM

You guys claiming that a better version will come out later haven't read the article. This guy is responsible for the EPS system in BMW's today and insisted this was what their customers wanted.

M3 Number 86 · 07-22-2016, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooFan328i

I just read this, seems like an interesting read. I do agree with preciseness of the steering though. The steering is very precise and improved in M3. I truly hated it when my e90 would feel every lateral undulation on the road, and twist along with the road's contours.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...steering-feel/

Um that's what you're supposed to feel in the steering

M3 Number 86 · 07-22-2016, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

I think what the BMW engineers are confused about is the fact that we are asking for more feedback while they are focusing on the fact that the new EPS steering setups are more "accurate," which is true. Accuracy is important and my F80's steering is so quick and accurate it's almost telepathic but I sometimes can't feel what my front tires are doing when taking an on ramp at 85 MPH

The way this engineer responded shows the disconnect BMW has with its hardcore audience, which sometimes happens when you become number one. Look at GM, it took them 50 years to figure it out.

The f80 steering is slower than the e90. It's like the e46. I personally can't stand that. Have to give more input to achieve the same amount of turn. I almost flew off track not giving enough steering input the car wasn't turning and just pretty much going straight in a 90* left hand turn LOL.

E90 is only 1.25 turns to full lock. 458 is 1 turn. I love fast steering racks.

Pyrat 2 · 07-22-2016, 01:09 AM

Disappointing to hear him state that customers want less feel rather than more. That's all of the status seekers ruining it for those that have been loyal to the heritage and foundation of bmw - drivers cars. I recently purchased an M2 and immediately noticed how much less feel it had than my e82 and e90. Then just last week I bought a 99 m3. Wonderful feedback. I forgot how good the older bmw steering was. I don't care that may be it has some 'bad' feedback. That may be 1% of the time. I don't want to compromise the 99% for the 1%. Hopefully they can figure it out with the esd.

asus389 · 07-22-2016, 02:19 AM

Current BMW reminds me of Apple in the 1990s. In the beginning they had the best product due to a lot of unique synergistic features that put them way ahead of everyone else. The product was opinionated and people loved it. Then in pursuit of market share and or lack of product direction they tried to be all things to all people. Too many models, watered down features, and ultimately people lost interest. It wasn't until the late 1990s/early 2000s when they returned to their roots that people fell in love all over again. They stopped trying to be all things to all people and they started to win again.

With BMW, they lost their identity a bit since the late 1990s/early 2000s. People used to buy BMWs *because* they were different than Mercedes/Audi/Acura/Lexus/etc.. But now that BMW is moving in that direction, at some point soon people will be asking, why should I buy a BMW that drives more like a lexus, when I can buy a lexus and not have to deal with fixing a BMW?

In short, this is what happens when you let focus groups and committees design your products. You might get broader appeal in the short run and on paper, but you lose your direction and identity and your product suffers.

Finnegan · 07-22-2016, 03:34 AM

The whole thing goes wrong off the bat with this guy's concept of "bad information". The tires try to follow road grooves, the tires tell you this, you adjust and compensate through inputs. To this engineer, that's a bad thing, and instead of providing information to the driver he's asking the car to make a decision for you while excluding you from the conversation--apply steering input for you and eliminate you from the equation. This is the root of why "feel" and "feedback" are horrible in modern BMW EPS--the car intentionally removes information from the driver, makes decisions for the driver with no input or information provided to the driver.

Just because the steering is pointed in a direction doesn't mean that's where the tires want to go. Knowing where the tires are going and doing and having that feeling is a huge part of the driving experience. Eliminate that and you end up with numb disconnected steering. Precise? Perhaps. Communicative and honest? No. The car is hiding things and more or less lying to you.

When the car eliminates you from the dance of actually driving then you're just a passenger at best and something to be ignored or not considered at worst. No thanks.

It doesn't have to be that way. As another poster noted the 991 GT3 is nothing like that. It's just as good if not better than my MZ4 and E36 M3's feel and communication. More like the MZ4 in quickness though. It doesn't force you to feel every single pebble in the road and yet it doesn't decide to eliminate key information from your hands. It dances with you and treats you like a driver not a passenger. It's honest.

What's even more frightening in this article is the supposition that most mainstream drivers would prefer to be disconnected and removed from the driving experience. There's going to be a huge market for self driving appliances at that rate. And if it's a self driving appliance what's the difference if there's a BMW badge or a Hyundai a badge? Where's the brand distinction, heart, value? A blender is a blender.

M2PDX · 07-22-2016, 03:48 AM

I LOVE my M3.

But I HATE the steering. After 5 BMWs with wonderful, fabulous, amazing and responsive hydraulic steering, the electric GIMMICK is simply a monstrosity. Totally disconnected from what is happening up front. No feel, on the road, on the track, or in my driveway. I thought technology is supposed to MOVE FORWARD. Sorry, but I don't see it in this case.

So, to save a 1/4 mile per gallon, we go backwards and away from the ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE.

M2PDX · 07-22-2016, 03:54 AM

Is ANYONE at BMW listening?

Does ANYONE at BMW care?

Pretty depressing that the engineers are sooooo out of touch with the enthusiasts who buy BMWs over and over.

Earth to BMW,........come in BMW......hellooooooooooooooo

Vallyshy · 07-22-2016, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvigod

Interesting article and topic.

I do agree that BMW does not have the greatest steering feel. However, comparing each car is really all relative. I have an F10 M5 which is better than my '12 X5M or '15 X5 but not by much. Also have a '15 335 which is also not great and similar to the other BMW's.

I also have a Ferrari 458 Spider and thought the feel was pretty darn good on that relative to the BMW's. Not great but still an order of magnitude better.

Then about a month ago got a '16 911 GT3 RS. Wow! The steering feel in that car knocks the socks off the 458 and all the BMW's by a mile. That was my 1st porsche I've ever owned and the only way to describe the feedback on the 911 is that it feels like a direct manual steering setup without the extra muscle & effort required to turn the wheel. Impeccable.

So again this is all relative in terms of steering between cars. The 911 is the best feedback of any car I've driven in 30 years. Just perfection. In comparison, the 458 and BMW's all feel totally numb and devoid of any feel or feedback to me relative to the 911. The gap is that big IMHO.

So somehow Porsche figured out the magical formula on the 911 GT3 RS. If Ferrari or BMW can reverse engineer that, bottle that good stuff up, they have pure perfection.

Erm.... What do you again? Besides trade a plethora of blue chip stocks lol

G80indy · 07-22-2016, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooFan328i

I just read this, seems like an interesting read. I do agree with preciseness of the steering though. The steering is very precise and improved in M3. I truly hated it when my e90 would feel every lateral undulation on the road, and twist along with the road's contours.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...steering-feel/

Can't agree. The isolation and numbness is not a good trade off

doug_999 · 07-22-2016, 05:40 AM

Interesting - the fact is that BMW wants to sell more cars and that mainstream America (and possibly others) want less "feel" in the steering. If you take two BMWs from about five years ago...
2011 E90 3-series. Brutal heavy steering at low speeds - but damn, the car was fun, and I loved driving it. Regret not getting one of the last 335s back then.

2013 X5/X6. Even heavier steering - can't believe people bought the vehicle. And yes, Active Steering really REALLY helped here*.

BMW has really "lightened up" the steering in both cars now (F30/F15) - if I were in the market for an X5, this would be good. Unfortunately it has ruined it for me on the 335/340 now. I have driven several of them and they feel like a Camry to me! But heck, Toyota sure does sell a lot of Camrys....

If I think back to my previous and current BMWs....
My 650GC xi has hydraulic steering and I love it - felt so much better than the S6 it was one of the top reasons for me selecting the car over the S6.

My 2011 X6 had active steering. It actually felt really good and I thought I had a lot of feedback.

My 2008 M5 felt over boosted compared to my

2006 550 with active steering. I drove several 550s - with and without active steering and the feel was the same. *So I don't think that technology "takes road feel away", but it can lighten the steering - as in with the X5/X6.

Anyway, I think we can surmise that what many of us love about BMWs - the way they feel - is going away, because there are more people that like it the other way. Sad.

clbmw · 07-22-2016, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pz619

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooFan328i

I am not sure about other BMW cars. But, regardless of feels, I still think my M3 is more accurate in steering responses than my old e90. It's very precise, I tested an M3 on the track as well, and wasn't disappointed by the steering accuracy.

Accurate, yes absolutely. I think the issue is more the elusive "feel". It's hard to put down in words which I think the author in the article also struggled with. It just doesn't feel... natural?

Just my opinion of course.

Fully agree, driving daily and IMO

E90 320d I feel like I'm connected to the road, I feel it through the wheel but it's less precise and takes more physical effort and more movement to get it where I want it. The steering wheel is thinner and less soft too

F20 M135i highly accurate and more sensitive in my view, very quick to place the front of the car where you want to with ease but less feeling of what the tires are actually doing on the road surface though. Steering wheel is chunkier and more padded.

I dislike neither both have their ups and downs. But I could imagine the best of both worlds would be amazing

Kayani_1 · 07-22-2016, 07:04 AM

Sorry, to say that but the guy in charge of working on current and future BMW's should not sound so puzzled about the gripe on lack of steering feel. I mean has he been living under a rock. Does he not research what most reviewers or enthusiast are complaining about? At his position he needs to pay more attention to the merits or demerits of his newly introduced cars. The customer survey filled out by soccer moms who want lexus like steering feel is just not enough. I mean come on guy many people have loudly and vocally complained about this in every single review of the current 6 series, 5 series, and 3 series.

For me personally, I hated the new steering feel of the newer BMW models. Initially I complained loudly on every automotive forum I could find. Slowly it sunk in the guy in-charge of making decisions at BMW is just after larger market shares and I will just have to speak with my wallet. I was right as the guy in-charge is just on his way to transform the 3 series into the next Toyota Camry. To a large extent he already has done it.

After ownership of 2 decades of BMW cars I said good bye to the brand due to exactly such reasons. If I wanted floaty ride, dead steering, and car making terrible engine sounds I would have just bought a Toyota Camry instead of a 3 series and saved myself a lot of money.

Will not buy and have not bought until the following

#returnsteeringfeel #nofloatyrides #sportyoverluxury #greatsoundingcar

Kayani_1 · 07-22-2016, 07:31 AM

May I suggest Toyota Camry as your next new car if you truly hated the real steering feedback or feel of previous generation BMW models. Just checking are you really a soccer mom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooFan328i

I just read this, seems like an interesting read. I do agree with preciseness of the steering though. The steering is very precise and improved in M3. I truly hated it when my e90 would feel every lateral undulation on the road, and twist along with the road's contours.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...steering-feel/

Rude Boy · 07-22-2016, 07:32 AM

Love the M4 but if they don't get this right by the next model i will be considering a Porsche

F32Fleet · 07-22-2016, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noro

I would argue that the wheel attempting to follow parallel groves in the pavement is a good thing. Case in point my ZHP does that and I feel like I always know what's going on. On the flip side my E92 335i would keep the wheel where I left it. The result is that I don't miss the E92 at all and now I am dreading selling the E46 ZHP away. I have never driven an F30 which is a car I plan to get so I have no idea what that feels like after the E92.

I also have a 72 2002 with no assist steering and I can tell you that under certain circumstances is feels ideal but for every day use it has a lot of discomforts to it.

my E30 M3 steering is likely to give a person an orgasm is best I can describe it... ZHP is very very close in terms of driving pleasure.

Maybe it's a problem with the roads in major markets (SoCal, NE US, Asia) and the need to expand the customer base?

lowbudgethero · 07-22-2016, 08:58 AM

I have a rental Forester currently with EPS and CVT, and let my gf who has a conventional power steering subaru impreza and has driven the older Forester to try it out. She didn't like it at all. This was coming from someone who pretty much could care less about driving dynamics and drives 40 miles to work everyday. I feel like BMW owners care more about handling and how a car feels than the average person so I want to know what customers was bmw talking about.

07-21-2016, 09:23 PM	#69
noro Colonel 92 Rep 2,707 Posts Drives: '91 M3, '04 E46 ZHP, '72 2002 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	I would argue that the wheel attempting to follow parallel groves in the pavement is a good thing. Case in point my ZHP does that and I feel like I always know what's going on. On the flip side my E92 335i would keep the wheel where I left it. The result is that I don't miss the E92 at all and now I am dreading selling the E46 ZHP away. I have never driven an F30 which is a car I plan to get so I have no idea what that feels like after the E92. I also have a 72 2002 with no assist steering and I can tell you that under certain circumstances is feels ideal but for every day use it has a lot of discomforts to it. my E30 M3 steering is likely to give a person an orgasm is best I can describe it... ZHP is very very close in terms of driving pleasure. __________________ zhpregistry.net - ZHP stats and free classifieds.
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07-21-2016, 09:57 PM	#70
jbrucebmw jbrucebmw 11 Rep 158 Posts Drives: 09 M5 95 M3 85 M635CSi... Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Los Angeles \| Newport Beach iTrader: (0)	After buying or leasing new M3s and M5s for the last two decades, lack of steering feel is the number one reason I'm not excited about any of the current models. Even spending 3 days at the Nurburgring in a new M4 last summer did not make me excited about the car. Yes, its fast but I miss the feel. I'd love to find a replacement for my E60 M5 and I don't mind turbos but the new M5 does not do it for me. I find myself lusting after e46 M3s that sit at a sweat spot of modern vs. steering and chassis feel. My wife has a Tesla Model S P85 which is a great luxury transportation appliance. Its even faster around town than my M5. If I'm going to give up on feel, Tesla getting my money for a daily driver. I don't want to do that, but that's how BMW appears to be headed. __________________ jbrucebmw BMW CCA LA & GGC 09 M5 \| 08 E90 M3 \| 95 M3 3.2 \| 85 M635CSi \| 73 2002tii Last edited by jbrucebmw; 07-21-2016 at 10:03 PM..
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07-21-2016, 11:00 PM	#71
Blader Lotus Exige ClubRacer 26 Rep 157 Posts Drives: MY15 Lotus Exige CR Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sydney iTrader: (0) Garage List 2010 E88 125i [0.00]	The reality is that any power steering insulates the driver from the steering. You need to go and drive a Lotus Elise or Exige to recalibrate your idea of what steering feel really is all about. As for powered steering the best I have driven is the Lotus Evora and while is is brilliant it is still not as good as the unassisted steering. __________________ Lotus Exige CR …. Upgraded Stereo, Cruise Control, Rear Parking Sensors, Full carpet kit with sound insulation ..... its a daily driver Charge Cooled TVS 1900, 3" bi-modal Exhaust, Moroso Sump, LSD, 60l Alloy Tank, Upgraded 2 Piece Rotors, 46mm Nitrons, Harness Bar and Forged Track Wheels with Yokohama AO50 R Specs for play time
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07-22-2016, 12:53 AM	#72
Rupes Major 1059 Rep 1,459 Posts Drives: F87 M2 (current), E90 330xi (w Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oregon iTrader: (0)	You guys claiming that a better version will come out later haven't read the article. This guy is responsible for the EPS system in BMW's today and insisted this was what their customers wanted.
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07-22-2016, 01:09 AM	#75
Pyrat 2 Colonel 1435 Rep 2,562 Posts Drives: Rapidly from A to B Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chicago 'burbs or TN Smokies iTrader: (3) Garage List 2022 Porsche GT4 [9.64] 2018 Porsche GT3 [9.33] 2007 Z4 M Roadster [8.33] 2020 BMW X1 [10.00]	Disappointing to hear him state that customers want less feel rather than more. That's all of the status seekers ruining it for those that have been loyal to the heritage and foundation of bmw - drivers cars. I recently purchased an M2 and immediately noticed how much less feel it had than my e82 and e90. Then just last week I bought a 99 m3. Wonderful feedback. I forgot how good the older bmw steering was. I don't care that may be it has some 'bad' feedback. That may be 1% of the time. I don't want to compromise the 99% for the 1%. Hopefully they can figure it out with the esd. __________________ '07 Z4MR '22 GT4 '18 GT3 '16 GT4, '16 M2, '14 X1, '13 135is, '06 330i, '03 323 Ci, '01 330i, '99 M3 (RIP), '96 318is, some non-BMWs
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07-22-2016, 02:19 AM	#76
asus389 Captain 74 Rep 639 Posts Drives: 11 E90 328i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Michigan iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW 328i [0.00]	Current BMW reminds me of Apple in the 1990s. In the beginning they had the best product due to a lot of unique synergistic features that put them way ahead of everyone else. The product was opinionated and people loved it. Then in pursuit of market share and or lack of product direction they tried to be all things to all people. Too many models, watered down features, and ultimately people lost interest. It wasn't until the late 1990s/early 2000s when they returned to their roots that people fell in love all over again. They stopped trying to be all things to all people and they started to win again. With BMW, they lost their identity a bit since the late 1990s/early 2000s. People used to buy BMWs because they were different than Mercedes/Audi/Acura/Lexus/etc.. But now that BMW is moving in that direction, at some point soon people will be asking, why should I buy a BMW that drives more like a lexus, when I can buy a lexus and not have to deal with fixing a BMW? In short, this is what happens when you let focus groups and committees design your products. You might get broader appeal in the short run and on paper, but you lose your direction and identity and your product suffers.
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07-22-2016, 03:34 AM	#77
Finnegan Dog Listener 726 Rep 7,850 Posts Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Teaching the dog to slalom iTrader: (22)	The whole thing goes wrong off the bat with this guy's concept of "bad information". The tires try to follow road grooves, the tires tell you this, you adjust and compensate through inputs. To this engineer, that's a bad thing, and instead of providing information to the driver he's asking the car to make a decision for you while excluding you from the conversation--apply steering input for you and eliminate you from the equation. This is the root of why "feel" and "feedback" are horrible in modern BMW EPS--the car intentionally removes information from the driver, makes decisions for the driver with no input or information provided to the driver. Just because the steering is pointed in a direction doesn't mean that's where the tires want to go. Knowing where the tires are going and doing and having that feeling is a huge part of the driving experience. Eliminate that and you end up with numb disconnected steering. Precise? Perhaps. Communicative and honest? No. The car is hiding things and more or less lying to you. When the car eliminates you from the dance of actually driving then you're just a passenger at best and something to be ignored or not considered at worst. No thanks. It doesn't have to be that way. As another poster noted the 991 GT3 is nothing like that. It's just as good if not better than my MZ4 and E36 M3's feel and communication. More like the MZ4 in quickness though. It doesn't force you to feel every single pebble in the road and yet it doesn't decide to eliminate key information from your hands. It dances with you and treats you like a driver not a passenger. It's honest. What's even more frightening in this article is the supposition that most mainstream drivers would prefer to be disconnected and removed from the driving experience. There's going to be a huge market for self driving appliances at that rate. And if it's a self driving appliance what's the difference if there's a BMW badge or a Hyundai a badge? Where's the brand distinction, heart, value? A blender is a blender.
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07-22-2016, 03:48 AM	#78
M2PDX Lieutenant Colonel 3496 Rep 1,772 Posts Drives: 2017 M2 Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Portland, Oregon iTrader: (0)	I LOVE my M3. But I HATE the steering. After 5 BMWs with wonderful, fabulous, amazing and responsive hydraulic steering, the electric GIMMICK is simply a monstrosity. Totally disconnected from what is happening up front. No feel, on the road, on the track, or in my driveway. I thought technology is supposed to MOVE FORWARD. Sorry, but I don't see it in this case. So, to save a 1/4 mile per gallon, we go backwards and away from the ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE.
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07-22-2016, 03:54 AM	#79
M2PDX Lieutenant Colonel 3496 Rep 1,772 Posts Drives: 2017 M2 Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Portland, Oregon iTrader: (0)	Is ANYONE at BMW listening? Does ANYONE at BMW care? Pretty depressing that the engineers are sooooo out of touch with the enthusiasts who buy BMWs over and over. Earth to BMW,........come in BMW......hellooooooooooooooo
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07-22-2016, 05:40 AM	#82
doug_999 Brigadier General 2555 Rep 3,972 Posts Drives: 2011 1M/2021 992/2023 X3 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chicago, IL iTrader: (0)	Interesting - the fact is that BMW wants to sell more cars and that mainstream America (and possibly others) want less "feel" in the steering. If you take two BMWs from about five years ago... 2011 E90 3-series. Brutal heavy steering at low speeds - but damn, the car was fun, and I loved driving it. Regret not getting one of the last 335s back then. 2013 X5/X6. Even heavier steering - can't believe people bought the vehicle. And yes, Active Steering really REALLY helped here. BMW has really "lightened up" the steering in both cars now (F30/F15) - if I were in the market for an X5, this would be good. Unfortunately it has ruined it for me on the 335/340 now. I have driven several of them and they feel like a Camry to me! But heck, Toyota sure does sell a lot of Camrys.... If I think back to my previous and current BMWs.... My 650GC xi has hydraulic steering and I love it - felt so much better than the S6 it was one of the top reasons for me selecting the car over the S6. My 2011 X6 had active steering. It actually felt really good and I thought I had a lot of feedback. My 2008 M5 felt over boosted compared to my 2006 550 with active steering. I drove several 550s - with and without active steering and the feel was the same. So I don't think that technology "takes road feel away", but it can lighten the steering - as in with the X5/X6. Anyway, I think we can surmise that what many of us love about BMWs - the way they feel - is going away, because there are more people that like it the other way. Sad. __________________ 2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio 2021 911 C4S Gentian Blue, manual 2023 X3 M40i - loaded sans Park Assist
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07-22-2016, 07:04 AM	#84
Kayani_1 Lieutenant Colonel 85 Rep 1,656 Posts Drives: BMW E92/E60 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Houston iTrader: (1)	Sorry, to say that but the guy in charge of working on current and future BMW's should not sound so puzzled about the gripe on lack of steering feel. I mean has he been living under a rock. Does he not research what most reviewers or enthusiast are complaining about? At his position he needs to pay more attention to the merits or demerits of his newly introduced cars. The customer survey filled out by soccer moms who want lexus like steering feel is just not enough. I mean come on guy many people have loudly and vocally complained about this in every single review of the current 6 series, 5 series, and 3 series. For me personally, I hated the new steering feel of the newer BMW models. Initially I complained loudly on every automotive forum I could find. Slowly it sunk in the guy in-charge of making decisions at BMW is just after larger market shares and I will just have to speak with my wallet. I was right as the guy in-charge is just on his way to transform the 3 series into the next Toyota Camry. To a large extent he already has done it. After ownership of 2 decades of BMW cars I said good bye to the brand due to exactly such reasons. If I wanted floaty ride, dead steering, and car making terrible engine sounds I would have just bought a Toyota Camry instead of a 3 series and saved myself a lot of money. Will not buy and have not bought until the following #returnsteeringfeel #nofloatyrides #sportyoverluxury #greatsoundingcar __________________ nickname"BAD 3",MHD E85 tune,RennArt catback non-resonated exhaust,VRSF Downpipes, VRSF 7"FMIC,VRSF stock side inlets,SSQV BOV,ECS CP,M-performance alcantara steering,retrofit M3 paddle shifters,Alpina B3 tranny flash,AFE power seal CAI,LED angels,ST Coilovers,M3 upper/lower control arms,E93 M3 Front Swaybar ,235/35/19x9 ,275/30/19x9.5. M sport bumpers, CF diffuser. When in doubt..flat out. Last edited by Kayani_1; 07-25-2016 at 11:56 PM..
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07-22-2016, 07:32 AM	#86
Rude Boy Second Lieutenant 61 Rep 201 Posts Drives: M4 6MT Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Queens NY iTrader: (0)	Love the M4 but if they don't get this right by the next model i will be considering a Porsche
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07-22-2016, 08:58 AM	#88
lowbudgethero Captain 124 Rep 751 Posts Drives: '98 Z3M (gone), '09 135i Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: 908 iTrader: (0) Garage List 2009 BMW 135i [9.00]	I have a rental Forester currently with EPS and CVT, and let my gf who has a conventional power steering subaru impreza and has driven the older Forester to try it out. She didn't like it at all. This was coming from someone who pretty much could care less about driving dynamics and drives 40 miles to work everyday. I feel like BMW owners care more about handling and how a car feels than the average person so I want to know what customers was bmw talking about.
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