[ASAP]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

We don't want manufacturing jobs that are currently in Mexico. Better to create silicone valley type jobs.

I think the correct answer is... all jobs, at competitive wages...

Remember, if you are just providing services, you may have nothing to show for it in the end.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

We don't want manufacturing jobs that are currently in Mexico. Better to create silicone valley type jobs.

That can employ a few hundred techies.. Versus manufacturing, which was the back bone of America, that can employee thousands of blue collar workers.. There by helping to build up a failing middle class and increase consumer spending.

And I can easily outsource the Silicone valley jobs to Poland. Well educated IT market there and they will work cheaper and harder than their American counter parts. See how that works..

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

That can employ a few hundred techies.. Versus manufacturing, which was the back bone of America, that can employee thousands of blue collar workers.. There by helping to build up a failing middle class and increase consumer spending.

And I can easily outsource the silicon valley jobs to Poland. Well educated IT market there and they will work cheaper and harder than their American counter parts. See how that works..

I think Silicone Valley is in SoCal. Silicon Valley is up north.

Pedantic man is pedantic

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

That can employ a few hundred techies.. Versus manufacturing, which was the back bone of America, that can employee thousands of blue collar workers.. There by helping to build up a failing middle class and increase consumer spending.

And I can easily outsource the silicon valley jobs to Poland. Well educated IT market there and they will work cheaper and harder than their American counter parts. See how that works..

This.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by jtodd_fl

I think Silicone Valley is in SoCal. Silicon Valley is up north.

Pedantic man is pedantic

Lol you know what I mean.



there ... corrected it in the original post

[TheHouseWon]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

That can employ a few hundred techies.. Versus manufacturing, which was the back bone of America, that can employee thousands of blue collar workers.. There by helping to build up a failing middle class and increase consumer spending.

And I can easily outsource the silicon valley jobs to Poland. Well educated IT market there and they will work cheaper and harder than their American counter parts. See how that works..

I do see how that works, but do you really want your children and grandchildren working in a manufacturing plant making sweaters and furniture? I'm with Alan Greenspan on outsourcing: it raises the standard of living as well as keep our currency in check.

[Fundguy1]

http://economyincrisis.org/nafta

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

I do see how that works, but do you really want your children and grandchildren working in a manufacturing plant making sweaters and furniture? I'm with Alan Greenspan on outsourcing: it raises the standard of living as well as keep our currency in check.

It's airplanes, computers, cars, appliances, etc, not sweaters.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

I do see how that works, but do you really want your children and grandchildren working in a manufacturing plant making sweaters and furniture? I'm with Alan Greenspan on outsourcing: it raises the standard of living as well as keep our currency in check.

It's not about that.. Manufacturing is the back bone of a nation.. The Last Samurai had a great line in regards to this type of shit..
Katsumoto: We are a nation of whores selling ourselves.
Which we are.. We moved our manufacturing overseas.. And most IT jobs can be moved there too. Only thing left is the "service sector", so we pretty much are in the whore business now.
Alan Greenspan, won't take advice from a guy that is so brilliant yet didn't see the housing collapse of 08 coming.. Outsourcing has ruined many communities and placed many on welfare.. Nothing worse than being 50+ years old, with a mortgage and kids in college to boot, and having your job be moved to China.. Then be told, "hey go to school and retrain"... Yeah good luck with that..

[TheHouseWon]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

It's airplanes, computers, cars, appliances, etc, not sweaters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/...employment.asp

We design, they build. Businesses win...at the cost of less work for domestic people in the short to medium term (structural unemployment) . We've done ok since NAFTA, in my opinion as we've grown infinitely stronger in other industries that more than made up for the manufacturing job losses.

It all starts with education, the higher the quality of the education the more the country as a whole benefits.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

It's not about that.. Manufacturing is the back bone of a nation.. The Last Samurai had a great line in regards to this type of shit..
Katsumoto: We are a nation of whores selling ourselves.
Which we are.. We moved our manufacturing overseas.. And most IT jobs can be moved there too. Only thing left is the "service sector", so we pretty much are in the whore business now.
Alan Greenspan, won't take advice from a guy that is so brilliant yet didn't see the housing collapse of 08 coming.. Outsourcing has ruined many communities and placed many on welfare.. Nothing worse than being 50+ years old, with a mortgage and kids in college to boot, and having your job be moved to China.. Then be told, "hey go to school and retrain"... Yeah good luck with that..

Probably cold hearted of me but tough shit, that's life.

Manufacturing and low level IT are becoming pretty much non-existent in America (the former far more than the latter). Adapt or suffer.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Probably cold hearted of me but tough shit, that's life.

Manufacturing and low level IT are becoming pretty much non-existent in America (the former far more than the latter). Adapt or suffer.

Anything can be non existant because anything can be outsourced, why does no one understand this? We cant build a solid vaccum cleaner in this nation that doesnt fall apart teo days later because we dont manufacture any quality items anymore... when shit fails, and china has the strongest manufacturing capacity in the world? Do you think we will fight them with our it services? lol

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Anything can be non existant because anything can be outsourced, why does no one understand this? We cant build a solid vaccum cleaner in this nation that doesnt fall apart teo days later because we dont manufacture any quality items anymore... when shit fails, and china has the strongest manufacturing capacity in the world? Do you think we will fight them with our it services? lol

No you can't outsource "anything". There's still a high value in having employees in similar time zones and being able to meet with them face to face and actually understand what they're saying.

That said, we have some folks in India work late shifts so they're at work the same time we are but as far as other analysts and senior PM's and engineers, if I have an issue or need to brainstorm with them over something, I don't want to have to call them at 10 PM at night, I'd like them available when I'm in the office and vice versa.

And who cares that China has the strongest manufacturing capacity in the world? We're the ones writing the software, designing them and coming up with the hardware specs and all of the other R&D. That's hardly considered "services".

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

No you can't outsource "anything". There's still a high value in having employees in similar time zones and being able to meet with them face to face and actually understand what they're saying.

You can outsource anything... medical services are starting to be outsourced, it's a matter of time, and the basis for a de regulated capitalist economy.

That said, we have some folks in India work late shifts so they're at work the same time we are but as far as other analysts and senior PM's and engineers, if I have an issue or need to brainstorm with them over something, I don't want to have to call them at 10 PM at night, I'd like them available when I'm in the office and vice versa.

And who cares that China has the strongest manufacturing capacity in the world? We're the ones writing the software, designing them and coming up with the hardware specs and all of the other R&D. That's hardly considered "services".

Wow, extremely fantastic to be able to design and create these products without actually being cost effective at producing them or being unable to produce what you create... in the end effectively, you have nothing without another "source"... this is fine and dandy until that market comes up and you need another market that is willing to accept the wages... everything is a matter of time...

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Wow, extremely fantastic to be able to design and create these products without actually being cost effective at producing them or being unable to produce what you create... in the end effectively, you have nothing without another "source"... this is fine and dandy until that market comes up and you need another market that is willing to accept the wages... everything is a matter of time...

We could be cost effective at producing them when you're cool with paying teens and children pennies on the dollar to work several hours a day like China is willing to do but we don't care to do that since it doesn't require much skill to assemble pieces together, plus China's plants are tooled to quickly accept design changes.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

We could be cost effective at producing them when you're cool with paying teens and children pennies on the dollar to work several hours a day like China is willing to do but we don't care to do that since it doesn't require much skill to assemble pieces together, plus China's plants are tooled to quickly accept design changes.

What if.... you paid them minimum wage just like any coffee pourer at Starsucks and offer extreme tax incentives for companies that decide to manufacture in the USA? Now, it appears that companies are getting both positives, outsourcing and headquartering outside of US to slide on taxes... once again, fine and dandy, until the circle breaks... its already happening in Europe.

All I am saying is this... full deregulation of every aspect, has its limits... I am 100% pro capitalism but with aspects of regulation... otherwise, only a matter of time.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by ASAP

What if.... you paid them minimum wage just like any coffee pourer at Starsucks and offer extreme tax incentives for companies that decide to manufacture in the USA? Now, it appears that companies are getting both positives, outsourcing and headquartering outside of US to slide on taxes... once again, fine and dandy, until the circle breaks... its already happening in Europe.

All I am saying is this... full deregulation of every aspect, has its limits... I am 100% pro capitalism but with aspects of regulation... otherwise, only a matter of time.

You could do that, the only issue now is that due to things like labor laws and what not that we have in the US, you probably can't be as productive and cost effective unless you offer some really long term and generous tax incentives.

It'd probably be a political nightmare due to the incentive to limit benefits so you'd have a ton of part time workers who are pretty much subsidizing the company's factory.

[Eriphill]

I love how many Americans are critical of Brexit. Do you think the U.S would be ok with a foreign parliament dictating domestic policy? Say a NAFTA parliament in Mexico City. Of course not. There would be a second revolution yet so many are against Brexit. The irony is amusing.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

I love how many Americans are critical of Brexit. Do you think the U.S would be ok with a foreign parliament dictating domestic policy? Say a NAFTA parliament in Mexico City. Of course not. There would be a second revolution yet so many are against Brexit. The irony is amusing.

No, many of us think you cut off your own nose to spite your own face with that one.

Seems like a lot of folks over there didn't really understand the economic ramifications and while the poor overwhelming voted to leave, they're the ones who stand to suffer the most. Oh well, we Americans are used to convincing the poor to act against their best interests too.

[TheHouseWon]

Yup, this was a power play at very high levels. Not unlike any other large scale interinstitutional agreement.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

NAFTA is a debacle for the US. With Canada its no big deal for the US. I see Canada this, Canada that. Whatever. The big issue is Mexico. All the manufacturing jobs etc have left the US and gone there. There's a $50b trade imbalance in Mexico's favor.

As for Brexit, if it was a single currency, open trade, it would make more sense. But throw in the social stuff, immigration stuff, regulations like which box you need to put milk in, etc and it becomes a quagmire. Then throw in loss of sovereignty, unelected foreign officials making laws, and padding their personal accounts, it's a travesty.

I'm glad it happened. I hope other countries, france, italy, follow suit. It'll take 2 years to unravel the UK. With trade deals it'll really be a non event long term. There's no reason for any of the regulations. If a country wants to sell its goods in another country, they should have to meet the other countries regulations. As for immigration and being unpc, that's a load of horse dung. A country should have the right to say no to whoever it wants. If Germany and France want to swing their doors open to a group that hates us and doesn't assimilate, that's their problem. Why should Britain or any other country be forced to accept them too.

Overall this will be a long term positive for England and a short term pain due to worry warts.

You have a right to your views. But I complete disagree with them.

NAFTA did cost Americans about 600k manufacturing jobs, either lost or displaced. It's bad, I get it, no one likes to lose their jobs. But it's more of a travesty that the education and retraining programs for those workers failed them (or partially, they failed themselves, blame can probably be put all-around).

Immigration...it appears you're in the view that immigration generally is harmful to a country's security and economy. You just proved that the entire Brexit rationale to leave was anti-immigration. It has nothing to do with economic security...b/c not a single person in the leave camp has any idea on the true impact of economic benefits. And only costs due to regulations and labor shortages as a result can be quantified.


Need I to remind you that your forefathers and all of ours were in a similar position at one point of time as being a shunned disrespected foreigner, here in the US. Immigrants do the labor many other won't do, for cheaper wages. Sure, my Ford CAN be made by union labor in Michigan. But am I willing to pay 40% more for that Ford? Heck no. You, the consumer have already made that choice. My point is, freedom of movement for labor is essential to free trade. Labor is a piece of the services industry and its output is traded.

To date, I still have yet to read one reputable academic source that quantifies the exit impact as a net economic positive. The markets already started to determine that and showed which sectors will be losers. The irony is, the major part of the UK economy, financial services and heavy manufacturing will be hurt by the exit, and only the niche industries will be helped. And that is a step back for UK, its people, and global trade.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Eriphill

I love how many Americans are critical of Brexit. Do you think the U.S would be ok with a foreign parliament dictating domestic policy? Say a NAFTA parliament in Mexico City. Of course not. There would be a second revolution yet so many are against Brexit. The irony is amusing.

dude... NAFTA is not even close to an economic integration that is the EU. The comparison is irrelevant.

My assertion is that all the "issues" from the EU is due to a single cause...the inability for the ECB to govern each country's debt load and economic planning.