[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The turbo S really is $250K with any options though. It's supercar performance for supercar price. These days, Z28, Z06, GT350R, that's supercar performance for a fraction of the price. Now, if you are talking about hypercars, then that's another category beyond. The reason why all these cheaper cars are approaching and surpassing porsche's performance IMO is the rear engined platform. At this point, they don't have many options to make the chassis perform as well as a good mid engine or front engine with the engine behind the front axle. They can make it wider, but it's already crazy wide with crazy-wide rear tires, they can try more power, but they have to balance how much power the chassis can lay down and screwing up the weight bias with a bigger engine or more hardware in the rear. They are great cars, but I think more and more they are being stretched to the limits of engineering and r&d for the chassis, while other manufacturers are soldering along with steady improvements.

Don't agree or think that's the case. Only car there that will give them a good race is the z06 if it doesn't heat soak. Plus the z will be easily beaten when the new GT2/RS are released.
The rear engine keeps moving to the middle and it has significant advantages. The only thing that I see as the difference is porsche won't get into the huge hp cars as they don't need to to be fast.

[FriskyDingo]

The 911 is no closer to hitting it's performance ceiling on account of it's layout than the Corvette is.

I work at a GM dealer and have driven the Z06, along with the previous ZR1 which was priced higher. It quickly becomes apparent where the corners were cut to get that lower price tag.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by gonzo

250?
The highest priced msrp coupe is the Exclusive at around 233.
You can get a decently optioned S for 180 before any discount.
7-10% is easily doable too.
The S options are really interior cosmetics as the car has everything mechanical already.

Base price is 180K

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The turbo S really is $250K with any options though. It's supercar performance for supercar price. These days, Z28, Z06, GT350R, that's supercar performance for a fraction of the price.

Those cars don't put times down like the Turbo S at the drag strip...run, after run, after run, after run. Z06 can, but with proper track prep, perfect launch, the right track, the right conditions, etc, etc...

Is there really a car that puts down the drag strip times and track times like the Turbo or Turbo S? GTR is the only other one that comes to mind. They are so consistent at what they do. Modded Turbo and Turbo S are also some the quickest cars at the runway events. They really are a triple threat.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

They are great cars, but I think more and more they are being stretched to the limits of engineering and r&d for the chassis, while other manufacturers are soldering along with steady improvements.

I don't think they have come close to stretching the limits. Your everyday 911 Carrara S(991.2) now does the ring in 7:30. Not a limited edition GT model, just your Carrera S you see driving everyday all day around town. Only 2 sec slower than the M4 GTS, with no big aero and no sticky PSC2 tires.

[chillindrdude]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

I work at a GM dealer and have driven the Z06, along with the previous ZR1 which was priced higher. It quickly becomes apparent where the corners were cut to get that lower price tag.

like proper engine/oil cooling?

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I don't think they have come close to stretching the limits. Your everyday 911 Carrara S(991.2) now does the ring in 7:30. Not a limited edition GT model, just your Carrera S you see driving everyday all day around town. Only 2 sec slower than the M4 GTS, with no big aero and no sticky PSC2 tires.

the net effect of the successive lengthening of wheelbase in each subsequent generation of 911 is that the location of the engine is starting to approach that of a mid-engined layout. hmmm...

could you imagine a GT4 with the GT3RS engine?!?!

[fcman]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

the net effect of the successive lengthening of wheelbase in each subsequent generation of 911 is that the location of the engine is starting to approach that of a mid-engined layout. hmmm...

How do you figure that? Spreading out the front and rear wheels doesn't all of a sudden push the engine in front of the rear wheels.

[chillindrdude]

Originally Posted by fcman

How do you figure that? Spreading out the front and rear wheels doesn't all of a sudden push the engine in front of the rear wheels.

no but it certainly isn't as far back behind the rear axle either.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

like proper engine/oil cooling?




the net effect of the successive lengthening of wheelbase in each subsequent generation of 911 is that the location of the engine is starting to approach that of a mid-engined layout. hmmm...

could you imagine a GT4 with the GT3RS engine?!?!

Not just that, although that is a major issue on something GM is touting as being track-capable out-of-the-box. It's apparent in other areas, too. Materials. Fitment in certain areas. Switch gear.

Originally Posted by fcman

How do you figure that? Spreading out the front and rear wheels doesn't all of a sudden push the engine in front of the rear wheels.

Uhm. That's exactly what it allows them to do.

[AM4ZING]

Best bang for your buck goes to the Z06... My buddy just picked one up and the thing is a total freak of nature

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Best bang for your buck goes to the Z06... My buddy just picked one up and the thing is a total freak of nature

C6 or c7?

[FriskyDingo]

If I had a Z06, the first thing I'd do is yank that tiny, overspun blower off and throw some twins on there. Runway/roll racing is all the thing is ever gonna be good for.

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

C6 or c7?

c7 Z06... Ive driven the C6 as well but the C7 Z06 takes the cake

[fcman]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

Uhm. That's exactly what it allows them to do.

So you're suggesting that Porsche actually wants the 911 to be midengined, but it's just not long enough? Maybe the next 911 will just be a midengine Panamera, that should be long enough I think. Porsche has always had room to move the engine forward a bit, maybe not enough to be mid engine but certainly more than the 3 inches they gained from lengthening the car with the 991. The car is designed to be rear engined, and it will most likely have the engine behind the rear wheels as long as Porsche keeps making it

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by fcman

How do you figure that? Spreading out the front and rear wheels doesn't all of a sudden push the engine in front of the rear wheels.

What they did was move the rear axel back 3 inches so they essentially move the engine up 3 inches. The entire wheelbase increase 4 inches as well, 1 inch in front. That is why the 991 handles more similarly to a Cayman/Boxster than before and why the 991 has set a bar that is about as high as it can get for handling.
I do not think they will ever call it mid-engined but I do believe it will become a mid engined car as witness by how much it moved forward on the 991.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

The 911 is no closer to hitting it's performance ceiling on account of it's layout than the Corvette is.

I work at a GM dealer and have driven the Z06, along with the previous ZR1 which was priced higher. It quickly becomes apparent where the corners were cut to get that lower price tag.

Where? Cuz I've driven one as well and yes its still a Chevy but its one of the best performance cars that I've driven... handles like its on rails and traction management is outstanding.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

What they did was move the rear axel back 3 inches so they essentially move the engine up 3 inches. The entire wheelbase increase 4 inches as well, 1 inch in front. That is why the 991 handles more similarly to a Cayman/Boxster than before and why the 991 has set a bar that is about as high as it can get for handling.
I do not think they will ever call it mid-engined but I do believe it will become a mid engined car as witness by how much it moved forward on the 991.

Huh? It's loopy at best to call it mid-engined if the center of the engine rests behind the rear axles.

They did make a mid engined 911 prototype, it's in a museum (porsche's I think).

But more importantly, porsche should just put a 911-looking body over the cayman chassis and call it the 911 with a turbo 6cyl, it would look almost exactly the same, but be more capable and carry the performance tradition on without having to have a 10 foot wide car and 3 foot wide rear tires. Although the top end 911s are capable of amazing performance, it'd be that much better on a mid-engined chassis. Porsche knows this, but they think too many people will freak out at losing the useless rear seat-like storage area.

[chillindrdude]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I do not think they will ever call it mid-engined but I do believe it will become a mid engined car as witness by how much it moved forward on the 991.

wow, you actually said something that i agree with.

if the 911 ever become mid-engined, or the cayman ever got GT3/RS power, Ferdinand would rise from the grave and kill the responsible engineers.

i personally think the mid-engine layout IS the optimum configuration for all around track use.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

wow, you actually said something that i agree with.

if the 911 ever become mid-engined, or the cayman ever got GT3/RS power, Ferdinand would rise from the grave and kill the responsible engineers.

i personally think the mid-engine layout IS the optimum configuration for all around track use.

To truly know we'd need to see a GT4 and 911 GT3RS or any GT rear engine car both with the same hp and weight and same tech to know. The rear engine has such advantages that if driven well is the most rewarding car you can drive and its natural balance when actually in motion really isn't matched by many, if any at all. Case in point, the new GT3 RS, 500 hp and 3250 lbs. name another car with that has the same power to weight that can run with it. The tech and things like rear steer only allow porsche to keep moving the platform further ahead of the curve (no pun intended).
The 911 has proven it's layout is quite good considering they tower over everyone else when it comes to professional racing. They are so good they make the Yankees look inconsistent in comparison. Certainly something to be said about that. Just look at how they clowned on everyone for the entire time ALMS GT/2 was around. Tit has only continued in the Rolex series as well.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Where? Cuz I've driven one as well and yes its still a Chevy but its one of the best performance cars that I've driven... handles like its on rails and traction management is outstanding.

Here ya go-

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

Not just that, although that is a major issue on something GM is touting as being track-capable out-of-the-box. It's apparent in other areas, too. Materials. Fitment in certain areas. Switch gear.



Uhm. That's exactly what it allows them to do.

[David70]

The idea that I would ever buy one car over the other because in the hands of a professional driver it is slightly faster around a road course compared to another car seems odd to me.

Then the day I show up to the track there could be someone there with the exact amount of skill that I have, we may go around the track and he will be slightly faster than me and it will bother me also seems pretty far out there. I guess insecurity might be an issue for some or the ability to spend time paper racing at car shows.

If the only goal from manufactures was to provide the fastest track car for the money there would be so many things they wouldn't bother with and then magazines would just publish the track times and price, figure out the ratio and declare the winner.

[See5]

The 2017 Z06 should have the cooling issues fixed from hat I'm hearing. Wouldn't doubt that the secondary radiator made for the new T1 cars will find its way into the car as well as the new power steering scoop and oil cooler heatshielding. The latter has already proven to keep oil temps very manageable at track sessions.

Definitely should've been addressed at introduction but I think they rushed it a little.

Either way, I've driven the C7Z pretty extensively ad it is a complete monster in every aspect IMO. And still daily drives very well if you need it to. Put it in 6th in Eco mode and it'll do 25-27mpg easy. Incredible for a 650hp car.

[dgp]

Originally Posted by See5

The 2017 Z06 should have the cooling issues fixed from hat I'm hearing. Wouldn't doubt that the secondary radiator made for the new T1 cars will find its way into the car as well as the new power steering scoop and oil cooler heatshielding. The latter has already proven to keep oil temps very manageable at track sessions.

Definitely should've been addressed at introduction but I think they rushed it a little.

Either way, I've driven the C7Z pretty extensively ad it is a complete monster in every aspect IMO. And still daily drives very well if you need it to. Put it in 6th in Eco mode and it'll do 25-27mpg easy. Incredible for a 650hp car.

But if it had 500hp it could never ever, ever compete with a 500hp Porsche because Porsche is the killer when it comes to giving you most performance per hp..price is irrelevant as resident fanboy will claim