[ASAP]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I don't know where you get only 2 industries. Restaurants, corner stores, nail salons, hair salons, funeral parlors, catering halls.... Only the big stores like supermarkets and home improvement were open. Mom and pops were shut down tight. If I remember correctly, I couldn't even go to the eye doctor and dentist. Realtors couldn't show houses.

EDIT - If YOU owned a business, do you think you could survive without any income for 2-3 months and still pay your bills and stay afloat?

NYC as everyone knows was one of the most restrictive areas during Covid... the net result was folks left in droves. i can't dictate local policy...i hope we can all come to an agreement on best paths forward for the nation...

2nd statement - If not... you have major liquidity issue and need to consider your business because you are surviving on margin... do you think the govt would care about me as a personal saver and my income? not at all my friend...

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by ASAP

NYC as everyone knows was one of the most restrictive areas during Covid... the net result was folks left in droves. i can't dictate local policy...i hope we can all come to an agreement on best paths forward for the nation...

2nd statement - If not... you have major liquidity issue and need to consider your business because you are surviving on margin... do you think the govt would care about me as a personal saver and my income? not at all my friend...

I am fortunate. I have different businesses and although things got weird, we’re fine. You seem to think that all businesses are large corporations that have a shit ton of slush fund money and you have the screw the big, bad companies mindset. Many businesses are small. The owners bust their asses, make a living plus a little but could not bear a few months covering overhead without revenue coming in. Does that mean they don’t deserve to be in business? Does that mean they should go out of business because our government deemed them not essential? I’m guessing you work for someone and never owned a business. That’s fine, but don’t judge what you don’t know. And no disrespect intended. Just giving you a different view.

[2000cs]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

The PPP program was not designed to require demonstrated financial hardship. Again, from Day 1 it was designed as a grant as long as criteria were met and a loan if they were not met. They called them “forgivable loans” and almost every company that applied for these did so with the expectation it would be a grant. They were not loans that were forgiven in a surprise move.

As I said, the wisdom of PPP is fair to debate. But student loans have always been designed to be repaid. That is not debatable and trying to justify forgiving loans after the fact by citing programs designed as grants or bailouts from the start is just a bad argument.

And the reason it was designed that way, and with pretty loose qualification rules, was to get the money out fast so that it would have the most impact. Congress accepted that there would be a lot of “free riders” (to be nice about it), to get speed and save the jobs that were intended. Imagine if the usual bunch of federal rules had been imposed: a new bureaucracy to evaluate applications, etc.

I wasn’t a fan of the PPP but I studied it pretty closely before recommending we not take it at my company.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by 2000cs

And the reason it was designed that way, and with pretty loose qualification rules, was to get the money out fast so that it would have the most impact. Congress accepted that there would be a lot of “free riders” (to be nice about it), to get speed and save the jobs that were intended. Imagine if the usual bunch of federal rules had been imposed: a new bureaucracy to evaluate applications, etc.

I wasn’t a fan of the PPP but I studied it pretty closely before recommending we not take it at my company.

So again... it was not a truly evaluated program... just something mismashed... and ur right it had a major impact... we are paying for it now in the form of inflation.

[erickonphoenix]

I paid my way through college and technical training but really it was not nearly as expensive as it is today. If there were predatory loan practices then those institutions should be held accountable but if it's just a student loan then no.

My four years of college in 1992 cost me $2,000 a semester. A 2023 self couldn't touch it for that. My technical school was a low interest installment plan. $777 a month. Not easy but I got it done with room mates and a bus pass. I'm not sure if they do installments anymore but the same program is around $25k now.

[M-technik-3]

I have different approach, for every !k you borrow then you need to do X amounts of real community service in set time frame of years and the penalty of not doing the work is pay that money back in 2 fold.

I paid the money back that I borrowed 25 years ago, while painful it was a debt I paid because I signed my name saying I would pay the money I had borrowed in good faith.

[TheWatchGuy]

I always see a lot of talk about PPP loans or how college is free in other countries, but both of those have very little to do with Student Loan forgiveness in the USA.

For PPP loans, that was implemented to help with a government created mess, those businesses had no choice to get involved with. They didnt get the choice to shut down or stay open, they were told what they could/couldnt do. So it is completely different than a person making a choice to take on a loan to go to college.

For free college in other countries, again, its a different situation. My wife's family is from/lives in Germany. A couple of them got free college, a couple were put in the vocational tract and went to trade schools, a handful were basically told HS education is about the best youre gonna get and joined the military. From an early age, they were put in to different education programs, some that put them on the tract to university and some that werent. Theres a lot of nuance here, but essentially, from grade school on, they were told they would get to go to college or werent. Not everyone got the opportunity to go to college. It was decided by their teachers/government who did. There were also fairly stringent guidelines they needed to meet. If they didnt, they lost that opportunity. There is also a test at the end of their highschool that determines if you get in to college or not.

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.

End of the day, students took out these loans for college degrees. If you want to blame someone for the loans, blame the students, their family and their HS guidance counselors. Someone in their life should have explained what they are getting themselves in to. And i have 0 sympathy for people in the last decade that took on massive loans for terrible paying majors. All that data is easily accessible on the internet. With a quick google search, you can see average pay for your degree, top end/entry level pay, job openings and placement percentages, etc. There is no reason someone should say they had no idea their 6 figure college debt was going to result in a 50k/yr salary.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

I always see a lot of talk about PPP loans or how college is free in other countries, but both of those have very little to do with Student Loan forgiveness in the USA.

For PPP loans, that was implemented to help with a government created mess, those businesses had no choice to get involved with. They didnt get the choice to shut down or stay open, they were told what they could/couldnt do. So it is completely different than a person making a choice to take on a loan to go to college.

For free college in other countries, again, its a different situation. My wife's family is from/lives in Germany. A couple of them got free college, a couple were put in the vocational tract and went to trade schools, a handful were basically told HS education is about the best youre gonna get and joined the military. From an early age, they were put in to different education programs, some that put them on the tract to university and some that werent. Theres a lot of nuance here, but essentially, from grade school on, they were told they would get to go to college or werent. Not everyone got the opportunity to go to college. It was decided by their teachers/government who did. There were also fairly stringent guidelines they needed to meet. If they didnt, they lost that opportunity. There is also a test at the end of their highschool that determines if you get in to college or not.

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.

End of the day, students took out these loans for college degrees. If you want to blame someone for the loans, blame the students, their family and their HS guidance counselors. Someone in their life should have explained what they are getting themselves in to. And i have 0 sympathy for people in the last decade that took on massive loans for terrible paying majors. All that data is easily accessible on the internet. With a quick google search, you can see average pay for your degree, top end/entry level pay, job openings and placement percentages, etc. There is no reason someone should say they had no idea their 6 figure college debt was going to result in a 50k/yr salary.

Nailed it. Thank you. Please close this thread with this being the last reply.

[c1pher]

I do not agree with paying off someone's loans, but I also do not think universities should be gouging students. Part of the increase isn't just greed but the catering to professors who want to teach whatever, no future degree they want. Cutting out some of these degree programs would be a good start while also steering the students toward real bill paying jobs. I also think education loans should be capped at 1% above prime or something like that. The loans these people have are downright usurious.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

Nailed it. Thank you. Please close this thread with this being the last reply.

I don't think the Government should be telling people if they can achieve higher learning or not. Sure Germany does it because they are somewhat socialist. That's not Merica.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I do not agree with paying off someone's loans, but I also do not think universities should be gouging students. Part of the increase isn't just greed but the catering to professors who want to teach whatever, no future degree they want. Cutting out some of these degree programs would be a good start while also steering the students toward real bill paying jobs. I also think education loans should be capped at 1% above prime or something like that. The loans these people have are downright usurious.

Ha. The rates for current student loans are nothing compared what I had to pay for mine. The cheapest which was only a quarter of the total I had to pay back was 5%. The main loan which was a Stafford was at 8%. And I had to take out a supplemental loan for a small amount at 9%.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Ha. The rates for current student loans are nothing compared what I had to pay for mine. The cheapest which was only a quarter of the total I had to pay back was 5%. The main loan which was a Stafford was at 8%. And I had to take out a supplemental loan for a small amount at 9%.

Once I consolidated mine from the mid-late 1980s the rate on the consolidated loan was 9% on the equivalent of around $60K in 2023 dollars. It was tough at first and took 15+ years to payoff, but it worked out because I picked a major that had earnings upside as my career progressed.

[freakystyly]

Goes back to basic financing and things like doing your taxes, paying bills not being mentioned throughout early schooling. When you're 17-18 and picking college courses, you don't have a clue about the adult life treadmill that you'll soon be on. You're told, get a good job or go to higher education... have fun, see you never!

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I don't think the Government should be telling people if they can achieve higher learning or not. Sure Germany does it because they are somewhat socialist. That's not Merica.

They are allowed to attend just not on the state's Euro.

[allinon72]

Don't cancel a single dollar until the ROOT CAUSE is addressed! Or we'll be canceling debt every 10 years.

The Federal government essentially took over the student loan market and open up the taps. Kids were brainwashed for decades under the notion that they were a failure if they didn't go to college.

Of course, the gubment is never interested in actually solving the problem. Because they created the problem, to benefit someone, and that someone is not the ordinary citizen.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Samurai of 2day

All US Military branches offer Student Loan Repayment Programs and Tuition Assistance. Even the reserve components

If citizens want higher education but can't afford it, have 'em sign up, serve a few years to earn the aforementioned benefits and learn some personal discipline, self accountability, understand how contribution to greater cause works, and gain a sense of personal responsibility.

Productivity, all around.

I started college with no idea what direction I was going and I did pretty poorly. I’m fairly smart, but I’m a terrible student, especially when I don’t have a clear focus for what I’m doing. When I finally gave up my GPA was less than a 2.0.

After several years I joined the Army and specifically chose an MOS that offered the Army College Fund. I served on active duty for four years.

When I got out of the Army I went back to school. Both times I went to a state school where I got in-state tuition. I made that choice because it was not financially reasonable for me to attend the private school I would have liked to attend. I finished my degree in two years. My post Army GPA was a 3.6+. The Army College Fund paid me $900/month while school was in session. The post 9/11 college benefits are MUCH better than the old college fund.

Joining the Army was the single best decision I’ve ever made in my life. 35 years later I am still enjoying the benefits of being a veteran.

Originally Posted by GTF

Nothing is "cancelled", debt is simply transferred to the taxpayer to buy votes. Fairness has no place in this scheme.....only more corruption from an incompetent administration. I currently live in a state where corruption is an art.

I wish this wasn’t so true!! I’ve lived a few places in my life and the corruption in Illinois is beyond my ability to comprehend. I’ve never seen anything like it anywhere. I love Chicago (in spite of the mind boggling corruption here), but I’ve never hated any state as much as I hate Illinois.

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

So if Americans are fine with the Government telling them who gets to go to college and what they get to study, sure, let the gov give free college out. Only about 30% of Germans end up going to college. Compared to the ~60% of Americans that go to college. There is a 0% chance the USA adopts a similar type system that allows free college for some, especially with how much college degrees have been pushed in our society for the last several decades.

Just for clarity. A large percentage of Americans may start college, but only about 33% actually graduate with at least a bachelor’s degree. For years it was very stable at 27% and has only begun increasing in the last number of years. I’m beginning to think most of that increase is due to the colleges graduating students who have no business graduating.

[ezaircon4jc]

To answer the original question, the same reason my mortgage (or auto, cc, etc.) shouldn't be "cancelled."

[plutnicki]

I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by plutnicki

I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.

part of the problem is the propaganda that everyone was fed that they absolutely needed to go to college to have a job no matter what... so everyone is just supposed to get in debt to have a job they can't pay this off with?

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by plutnicki

I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.

I'm sure if their rich parents cosign for the car loan the kid could get it.

Unfortunately when it comes to student loans WE are the cosigners. Absolutley no incentive for the college to give 2 shits if they can actually pay the loan or not because the college will get it's money regardless.

[ZL9M2]

I feel no obligation at all. First off, maybe if it was just as easy to get a small business loan as it was to get a student loan we could talk.

If a student is willing to work during the summer and school year there is no way you should be any more than $20k to maybe $50k in debt for a public four year education. These people with $100k, $150k in student loan debt for a basket weaving degree get no sympathy from me. I'm not in charge of that stupidity.

I've had two kids graduate and two still in college and we've managed to do this with minimal debt. But they work all year and that money goes to their schooling.

And stop with the bullshit PPP/student loan comparisons.

[RobotDoctor]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

If the government wants to give people their student loan money back I'm all for it, as long as it's everyone that has ever had a student loan. And then, of course, pay back all those long hours everybody else put in so they didn't have to get a loan. I'd be good with that.

Agreed! Some of us worked during college and/or looked into the "secret society of college money" and applied for grants and scholarships to supplement working to earn income and paid off our college debt before we graduated. Of course I went to a technical college for two years. I sacrificed then because I knew starting out it would be tough to pay later. I earned a degree in a field that I knew would offer me a terrific platform for employment, and it has. I went to college to gain a skill that would produce viable employment in a field that would support myself and my family. I work in the industrial robotics industry focused on the manufacturing sector and have been doing this for over 34 years. I am fortunate in that I can actually work for myself and make a decent living but none of this would be possible if I majored in a subject in college that had virtually zero chance of obtaining a viable job and establishing a realistic, and financially rewarding career out of it.

Problem with the government giving people their student loan back is that this is a false narrative. The government never gives anything for free. Some one will pay those loans and that will be all of us through higher taxes. I did the responsible thing and worked my tail off for funding and paid my college off before I graduated, never asking anyone to help fund my debt. With respects to all who got loans to go to college, I was never consulted in what the student majored and graduated in so why should I be on the hook to pay back their loan?