[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Yes Artemis I know . Actually I meant all the 2022 wheel "covers" (hubcaps) are supplied and made by Red Bull .

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Forgot to mail your Happy Birthday card M5Rick

Don't think he will like that !

LMFAO

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by F87source

Lol a giant mess, but Ferrari seem to be better.

Yup me too, glad Ferrari is back, and hopefully for legitimate reasons (they better not be burning oil again).

Free practice is always not a good reflection of the race but yeah we will see. It does look like the field is alot closer.

NO ! The new 2022 Ferrari PU won't burn oil ...Again !

The new 2022 Ferrari PU is "The Wolf Zimmermann-Designed Ferrari PU" and has been nicknamed "Superfast" at 'Maranello but that is a description unlikely to be heard from the lips of Mekies or team principal Binotto, who is setting Ferrari the target of challenging Mercedes and Red Bull...

All I heard is : Ferrari has developed a high technological injection system for the 2022 E-10 fuel (10% Ethanol)
Combining super-fast ignition with ways of making the intake mixture more turbulent and therefore explosive and getting the flame to quickly spread to the edges of the combustion chamber are the absolutely keys to improving combustion and maximising the 500-bar fuel pressure allowed under the current regulations...

All I know is that the new 2022 Ferrari PU is a Power Beast ..
That's what we witnessed today as well..

Welcome back Ferrari !

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yes Artemis I know . Actually I meant all the 2022 wheel "covers" (hubcaps) are supplied and made by Red Bull .

About the functionality of the F1 wheel rim covers:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2022/7078251/ ("How F1 wheel rim covers work, why they were banned and why they’re back").

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Lets see how the cars are on tire wear. Rumor is Ferrari are very easy on the tires.

HAM was whining during the whole FP's and QF's about the new tires ..
When they are cold or overheated , they are really hard to understand (lack of feedback)
The tire wear is like the 2021 13' tires , but once they start to wear it goes extremely quickly !

MAX lost today the pole , because he had lack of grip in the last turn by front tire overheating and lost there 0.3 sec.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Mr Pete

Really cool to see Haas up there. Want to see Mick improve as season goes on.

Love Gunther and Kmag !!!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Artemis

About the functionality of the F1 wheel rim covers:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2022/7078251/ ("How F1 wheel rim covers work, why they were banned and why they’re back").

Artemis Is that your next ///M2 ? => https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/nieuw...tlaten-3325888

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

NO ! The new 2022 Ferrari PU won't burn oil ...Again !

The new 2022 Ferrari PU is "The Wolf Zimmermann-Designed Ferrari PU" and has been nicknamed "Superfast" at 'Maranello but that is a description unlikely to be heard from the lips of Mekies or team principal Binotto, who is setting Ferrari the target of challenging Mercedes and Red Bull...

All I heard is : Ferrari has developed a high technological injection system for the 2022 E-10 fuel (10% Ethanol)
Combining super-fast ignition with ways of making the intake mixture more turbulent and therefore explosive and getting the flame to quickly spread to the edges of the combustion chamber are the absolutely keys to improving combustion and maximising the 500-bar fuel pressure allowed under the current regulations...

All I know is that the new 2022 Ferrari PU is a Power Beast ..
That's what we witnessed today as well..

Welcome back Ferrari !

That technology was pioneered by Mercedes along time ago, it's called prechamber ignition.

How it works is, because lean fuel mixtures don't burn very complete Mercedes has a secondary ignition chamber where a second fuel injector and spark plug sit. This chamber is very small and sits above the main combustion chamber, and is filled with a very rich mixture of fuel. When the spark plug inside this chamber ignites it produces jets of flame that is directed out of ports and in all directions into the main combustion chamber allowing combustion process to occur evenly and completely despite the fuel mixture bejng really lean in the main combustion chamber. This is what allows 50% thermal efficiency to be possible and was a genius development by Mercedes, every derivative now used is a copy of Mercedes.


The increased turbulence for better air flow distribution was also pioneered by Mercedes in the turbo hybrid era, Mercedes has a tuned and variable length intake runner design. So the velocity stacks are changing in length to direct the air flow more efficiently into the combustion chamber and this varies based on rpm. Again a mercedes concept.


So far I have heard the Ferrari engine is impressive but I haven't heard of anything on it that is brand new never been done before, at least I haven't heard of anything yet.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by F87source

That technology was pioneered by Mercedes along time ago, it's called prechamber ignition.

This has actually been used in diesel engines for about 100 years

[F87source]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This has actually been used in diesel engines for about 100 years

Yes, but not in a high efficiency, high rpm, direct injected turbo charged F1 engine.

Remember diesel engines are generally in their sweet spot around 1500-2000 rpm and max out at 4500 rpm depending on the engine. An F1 car generally sits at 12k rpm and max out around 15k rpm. This makes the prechamber ignition system much much much more complicated and different than a diesel engine's system, as it has to be able to ignite in the hundreds of times per second mark to meet the 15k rpm limit and deal with the massive compression. So it's not really the same thing at all.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This has actually been used in diesel engines for about 100 years

Also tuning the jet's direction, and having to deal with extremely lean fuel mixtures in the combustion chamber is another challenge as well, something a diesel engine doesn't have to worry about. It sounds so simple because there has been analogues in other applications, yet it is not, and it took mercedes to start the trend before others could even attempt it. Split turbos were also done before on mercedes diesel trucks, yet no one was able to even think about it until merc started the trend.

So it might be an analogue but it is no where near the same thing. An interesting note is Mahle is developing this technology for street use and can yield up to 45% thermal efficency, although it is currently at 42.5% (a push for 45 is possible), but it might be too late as the time of the ICE might be over soon.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by F87source

and having to deal with extremely lean fuel mixtures in the combustion chamber is another challenge as well, something a diesel engine doesn't have to worry about.

Actually this is something a diesel engine has to worry about.
A diesel engine runs at much much leaner conditions most of the time than a gasoline engine.
I mean, a diesel engine doesn't have a intake flow limiting device like a throttle valve or similar, so at low 'throttle' (for diesels this is obviously the wrong word) the mixture is incredibly lean as performance is fuel regulated and the engine itself runs in theory always in WOT mode (ok, with EGR it's a bit of a different story)

So a diesel doesn't function in the way you depict it here. The function of that prechamber is pretty much the same for both engines.
The reason why a prechamber is used is because those gasoline engines start to run the way diesel engines run.
It is because of efficiency...diesels are right there at the top. It's the main reason diesel engines are so popular in europe where fuel prices are so high. Efficiency therefore running costs.

BTW why diesels run at lower RPM has nothing to do with it. If you want to know why diesels run at lower rpm than gasoline engines, and what kind of internal combustion reciprocating engines for example run higher rpms than gasoline engines, that might be an interesting subject for a new topic.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Actually this is something a diesel engine has to worry about.
A diesel engine runs at much much leaner conditions most of the time than a gasoline engine.
I mean, a diesel engine doesn't have a intake flow limiting device like a throttle valve or similar, so at low 'throttle' (for diesels this is obviously the wrong word) the mixture is incredibly lean as performance is fuel regulated and the engine itself runs in theory always in WOT mode (ok, with EGR it's a bit of a different story)

So a diesel doesn't function in the way you depict it here. The function of that prechamber is pretty much the same for both engines.
The reason why a prechamber is used is because those gasoline engines start to run the way diesel engines run.
It is because of efficiency...diesels are right there at the top. It's the main reason diesel engines are so popular in europe where fuel prices are so high. Efficiency therefore running costs.

Yes my mistake, I was looking at the raw chemical formula and saw diesel had a different stoichiometric equation and didn't do the calculation to see that the ideal afrs are almost the same, and yes throttle is the wrong word lol.

But the major difference is the ability to function under the extreme rpm. Also the jet pattern is different, I was looking at the difference between Mahle's design, masterati's design, and a generic diesel engine jet.

[GuidoK]

An F1 engine gets it's high rpm mainly from it's incredibly short stroke. That's also a reason why they idle at like 4krpm.
True, petrol is more suitable for rpm's than diesel (there's roughly about a 50% difference), but the functioning of the prechamber is not just an 'analogy'. It's the same.
The ability to 'function under high rpm' is a characteristic of the fuel.
If they used something like hydrogen or nitromethane as fuel, it could function under even far greater rpm's (that is if the pistons, conrods, liners etc can handle it; that is the big limitation I think).

They're using a precombustion chamber because they're leaning out the mixture, so for exactly the same reason it is used in a diesel engine.
So for gasoline: it's a new application. For a diesel engine: 100 year old tech.
So an old idea but in a new application.
Obviously there's gonna be differences in the details. The diesel engine doesn't have a sparkplug for example

And in this particular application I believe the F1 engines use 2 injectors, one separate for the precombustion chamber and another one for the cylinder; most diesel engines only have 1 injector; in automotive applications at least. If you look at large diesel engines in ships etc, the injection system, valves etc get much much more complicated (everything is bigger so size isn't a limit and money also isn't a limit compared to normal automotive application), and these engines typically have a higher efficiency too.
The Merc F1 engine was the first one to reach 50% efficiency 2 or 3 years ago, but large diesels in ships have been up to that standard for decades now, with great reliability (these engines of course run almost contiously for years and years, pretty much the opposite of F1 engines).
So I think it's quite logical that these F1 engines start to use technology normally only seen in diesels, as they reach similar efficiency by use of similar techniques (ultra lean mixtures)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by F87source

An F1 car generally sits at 12k rpm and max out around 15k rpm. This makes the prechamber ignition system much much much more complicated and different than a diesel engine's system, as it has to be able to ignite in the hundreds of times per second mark to meet the 15k rpm limit and deal with the massive compression.

Affirmative.

Mercedes-AMG:
- max rpm ICE: 15K rpm
- max rpm exhaust turbine: 125K rpm

CE = Control Electronics
ES = Energy Store
EX = Exhaust system
ICE = Internal Combustion Engine
MGU-H = Motor Generator Unit – Heat
MGU-K = Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic
PU = Power Unit
TC = Turbo Charger

https://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/for...engine-facts/#

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

An F1 engine gets it's high rpm mainly from it's incredibly short stroke. That's also a reason why they idle at like 4krpm.
True, petrol is more suitable for rpm's than diesel (there's roughly about a 50% difference), but the functioning of the prechamber is not just an 'analogy'. It's the same.
The ability to 'function under high rpm' is a characteristic of the fuel.
If they used something like hydrogen or nitromethane as fuel, it could function under even far greater rpm's (that is if the pistons, conrods, liners etc can handle it; that is the big limitation I think).

They're using a precombustion chamber because they're leaning out the mixture, so for exactly the same reason it is used in a diesel engine.
So for gasoline: it's a new application. For a diesel engine: 100 year old tech.
So an old idea but in a new application.
Obviously there's gonna be differences in the details. The diesel engine doesn't have a sparkplug for example

And in this particular application I believe the F1 engines use 2 injectors, one separate for the precombustion chamber and another one for the cylinder; most diesel engines only have 1 injector; in automotive applications at least. If you look at large diesel engines in ships etc, the injection system, valves etc get much much more complicated (everything is bigger so size isn't a limit and money also isn't a limit compared to normal automotive application), and these engines typically have a higher efficiency too.
The Merc F1 engine was the first one to reach 50% efficiency 2 or 3 years ago, but large diesels in ships have been up to that standard for decades now, with great reliability (these engines of course run almost contiously for years and years, pretty much the opposite of F1 engines).
So I think it's quite logical that these F1 engines start to use technology normally only seen in diesels, as they reach similar efficiency by use of similar techniques (ultra lean mixtures)

I work in US IP and see a ton of prechamber apps. Very little IP for Merc in prechambers. Other companies, particularly the diesel engine manufacturers are still doing a lot, and yea they have been doing injection into both pre and main chambers, and spark in the prechamber for quite some time, with a lot of refinement to the concept overall. Would go into more detail of some of the newness, but I’m bound to secrecy.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Forgot to mail your Happy Birthday card M5Rick

I would have preferred a BIN-OTT-Oh dear card, much more friendly chap haha

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Love Gunther and Kmag !!!

The first time I'm seing Gunther is happy, Mags has probably forgiven him for waking him up with that phonecall!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The first time I'm seing Gunther is happy, Mags has probably forgiven him for waking him up with that phonecall!

Probably, spared him a season of the worst Haas in the history of the team, and brought him back for a car that is high up in the mid field. Now if only Mick can get a grip on the car and really push it up the mid field.

[M5Rick]

Some of the tech terms here go right over the top of my head, pre combustion chambers, trick twin injectors, detonation management lol I'm just sticking to the cars and team/driver effort, sod the tech which is of no parallel significance to our own cars. Fia made a big mistake bringing in hybrid into play back in '14.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Some of the tech terms here go right over the top of my head, pre combustion chambers, trick twin injectors, detonation management lol I'm just sticking to the cars and team/driver effort, sod the tech which is of no parallel significance to our own cars. Fia made a big mistake bringing in hybrid into play back in '14.

Actually if the combustion engine survives alot of F1 tech will make it over. Maserati and Mahle are trying prechamber combustion, hybrid systems will come over, Mercedes already has plans for electric boosted turbos derived from their mguh tech.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Actually if the combustion engine survives alot of F1 tech will make it over. Maserati and Mahle are trying prechamber combustion, hybrid systems will come over, Mercedes already has plans for electric boosted turbos derived from their mguh tech.

I keep having a laugh at VET's quip ''bring back the f* v12's'' when his F car packed up at the sochi race and look at what a geeta thunberg he's turned into now in that short space of time, all done to follow the green gravy train for his own needs.