[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

lets also not forget Belgium where there was heavy rain. Max finished first and Lewis 3rd. However because points were halved due the short duration.... VER only scored 5 more points than HAM instead of the usual 10.

Spa-Francorchamps 2021 was a wet qualification on Saturday and permanent torrential rain on Sunday. The safety car did way more laps than the cars.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by chaungo

That seems like a problem for Mercedes then, FIA specifically stated before the race that any contact whether intentional or not will get a severe penalty, just let Max divebomb and take Lewis out, then Max get DSQ for it

Mercedes dropped the ball on strategy, even during the safety car, they had tons of chances after Max pitted, for them to do the same.

Mercedes had no way to know Race Direction was going to break their own rules and handle the safety car different than any other in the past. Again, HAM had a 11+ second lead and there was no reason under the current rules to pit HAM and put him behind MAX. Mercedes strategy was just fine since they would've won the race if Masi didn't gift it to RB. Pit strategy isn't a defense against a fraudulent race director.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dmatre

I never said that Max wasn't a worthy champion - if it wasn't for luck (bad), the championship would have been wrapped up in Brazil.
Only pointing out that the racing gods are fickle. Some days they curse you, others they smile on you.

My comment was no criticism about what you noted. I fully agree with what you commented.

[Blindside_137]

Can someone post the two minutes of Toto again? I can't find it

[M5Rick]

^ Think it's been blocked.

[M5Rick]

In my newspaper

[M5Rick]

.

[FormulaMMM]

Hints of logic and strategy discussion during the midnight hours?

Unless you are an FIA conspiracy theorist, you believe the greater race variables were fixed. The Latifi crash site would be cleaned up in time under safety car, lapped runners would be allowed through once it was safe to do so, and the race would be resumed and finished under green flag conditions, regardless of the order of HAM-VER and the condition of their tires. 1-2 running order, tire condition, safety car pit strategies are obviously extraneous, not influential to the race director’s decision-making process under the circumstances.

The (ongoing…) suggestion that Merc’s strategy was predicated on anything other than the exact race ending scenario that unfolded is counterfactual. We know because it’s what Bono outlined to Lewis on lap 55.

The yellow flew with HAM leading by 11-12 seconds and somewhere in the vicinity of T9. Merc had ample time to decide what to do – bring HAM in or leave him out. They had a pit crew positioned and ready but opted instead to maintain track position.

Red Bull reacted accordingly. With no prospect of improving VER’s track position (with HAM in the pits), and the ability to maintain VER’s P2, he grabbed a new set of softs. Had HAM pitted, Red Bull would have been in a strategy trap similar to Merc – leave VER out for track position on worn hard tires, with HAM attacking from behind? Or, pit VER and give him a chance to fight from 2nd on equal tires? Who knows what Red Bull would have done, but either way seems HAM would have been favored.

(As usual, HAM’s race strategy intuition was true – I’ll remember his lap 54 paranoid expletive radio call as he passed pit entry and rolled down the front straight...)

Pause HAM or VER fan favoritism, FIA conspiracies, team strategy decisions under safety car that created the false appearance of unfairness after the fact, and you’re left with an easy call to go motor racing.

As strongly desired by the teams beforehand (not to mention, any fan of motorsport), the race should have ended under green flag conditions, not a safety car.

Of course the race director should have resumed the race, if at all possible, and it was.

Of course lapped cars shouldn’t have been in the way.

Of course the 1-2 drivers in the race and in the championship should be provided the stage for an epic, historical final lap showdown for the WDC.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by F87source

Right so if redbull gives max a dominant car next year and he wipes the field then he's only a 1 time champion right?

I don't like that logic at all, just because the car is also dominant doesn't make the championship invalid.

Correct, I'd say team and car being more important than driver started way back in 2010 with VET and Red Bull. Hoping next years new car brings the pack WAY CLOSER together!!! I want to see drivers have to earn championships once again. New teams and faces on the podium would be awesome!

I also wouldn't call it "Logic." Just my opinion...I hold logic to a much higher standard.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Hints of logic and strategy discussion during the midnight hours?

Unless you are an FIA conspiracy theorist, you believe the greater race variables were fixed. The Latifi crash site would be cleaned up in time under safety car, lapped runners would be allowed through once it was safe to do so, and the race would be resumed and finished under green flag conditions, regardless of the order of HAM-VER and the condition of their tires. 1-2 running order, tire condition, safety car pit strategies are obviously extraneous, not influential to the race director’s decision-making process under the circumstances.

The (ongoing…) suggestion that Merc’s strategy was predicated on anything other than the exact race ending scenario that unfolded is counterfactual. We know because it’s what Bono outlined to Lewis on lap 55.

The yellow flew with HAM leading by 11-12 seconds and somewhere in the vicinity of T9. Merc had ample time to decide what to do – bring HAM in or leave him out. They had a pit crew positioned and ready but opted instead to maintain track position.

Red Bull reacted accordingly. With no prospect of improving VER’s track position (with HAM in the pits), and the ability to maintain VER’s P2, he grabbed a new set of softs. Had HAM pitted, Red Bull would have been in a strategy trap similar to Merc – leave VER out for track position on worn hard tires, with HAM attacking from behind? Or, pit VER and give him a chance to fight from 2nd on equal tires? Who knows what Red Bull would have done, but either way seems HAM would have been favored.

(As usual, HAM’s race strategy intuition was true – I’ll remember his lap 54 paranoid expletive radio call as he passed pit entry and rolled down the front straight...)

Pause HAM or VER fan favoritism, FIA conspiracies, team strategy decisions under safety car that created the false appearance of unfairness after the fact, and you’re left with an easy call to go motor racing.

As strongly desired by the teams beforehand (not to mention, any fan of motorsport), the race should have ended under green flag conditions, not a safety car.

Of course the race director should have resumed the race, if at all possible, and it was.

Of course lapped cars shouldn’t have been in the way.

Of course the 1-2 drivers in the race and in the championship should be provided the stage for an epic, historical final lap showdown for the WDC.

None of that makes any sense. If race direction wanted to toss out the rulebook for some epic "made for Netflix" final lap showdown, they should've red flagged the race and let Mercedes change tires while keeping track position. Why didn't they do that? Well because at the start of the race HAM (on mediums) still smoked MAX (on softs) off the line so RD didn't even want to give both cars equal tires for any showdown. They needed MAX to have fresh softs vs worn Hards on the Merc. Considering the lengths that had to be taken to get Max to win that race, it really goes to show how strong Merc/HAM are and it was their championship. Mercedes wiped the floor with RB the entire race, it was damn near a no contest. They were probably considering making Lewis start the last lap from pit lane just to ensure Max could win. The only highlight from Redbull was Checo, other than that Redbull had absolutely nothing.

[Wakka]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Did Verstappen (not) deserve the 2021 World Driver Championship title ?

A couple of 2021 facts:

• most championship points
• most victories
• most podiums
• most pole positions
• most laps in the lead
  
• most 'fastest lap of the race'
• either P1 or P2 in every 2021 race, except:
  • Hungary: P9 (crash caused by Bottas/Mercedes in lap 1/70)
  • Azerbaijan: DNF (blown tire | P1 in lap 46/51 | had fastest lap)
  • Silverstone: DNF (crash with Hamilton/Mercedes | P1 in lap 1/52)
  • Monza: DNF (crash with Hamilton/Mercedes | P8 in lap 26/53 | had fastest lap)

Hamilton had the most fastest laps

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

Can someone post the two minutes of Toto again? I can't find it

No! It's on post 865
''mikey,vot was that''

[syd34]

I can't read all the pages of comments and nothing will change with this view as I am sure it has been mentioned.

But to truly equalize the race and have a last lap drama, Masi should have red flagged the race and have a standing start with Hamilton and Max on P1 and P2 respectively. This provides Hamilton the chance to change tires and then have an all or nothing last lap.

The way it was handled was very poor. This is not WWE (although the similarities to the Montreal Screw Job cannot be ignored). I am afraid to think of the meltdown by certain people here if the scenario was reversed.

Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled for Max, but the way Masi handled it has left a sour taste.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by syd34

I can't read all the pages of comments and nothing will change with this view as I am sure it has been mentioned.

But to truly equalize the race and have a last lap drama, Masi should have red flagged the race and have a standing start with Hamilton and Max on P1 and P2 respectively. This provides Hamilton the chance to change tires and then have an all or nothing last lap.

The way it was handled was very poor. This is not WWE (although the similarities to the Montreal Screw Job cannot be ignored). I am afraid to think of the meltdown by certain people here if the scenario was reversed.

Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled for Max, but the way Masi handled it has left a sour taste.

In a nutshell it was the drivers themselves who already discussed before that they wanted to race to the very end if the circumstances allow, even before the race started. M Masi Director was just carrying out their wishes, the rules don't come into it.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

In a nutshell it was the drivers themselves who already discussed before that they wanted to race to the very end if the circumstances allow, even before the race started. M Masi Director was just carrying out their wishes, the rules don't come into it.

None of the drivers would ever say they want the rules broken to prevent them from winning a race. The circumstances no longer allowed a fair race to the finish and Masi didn't red flag to attempt create any fairness. You know damn well if the situation was reversed you would be screaming how Max was robbed.

[M Hybrid V8]

I fully believe that if MB brought HAM into the pits for softs, Masi would NOT have ended the safety car (he would've stated he could not legally or safely do so). He clearly wanted the advantage to go to RB and if he saw HAM enter pit lane Max would've won behind the SC. Either way, he was going to ensure Max was given the championship.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by M2CS

None of the drivers would ever say they want the rules broken to prevent them from winning a race. The circumstances no longer allowed a fair race to the finish and Masi didn't red flag to attempt create any fairness. You know damn well if the situation was reversed you would be screaming how Max was robbed.

Just so I can catch up, what rule did Masi break?

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Just so I can catch up, what rule did Masi break?

Masi withdrew the safety car one lap earlier than the rules dictate and he did so to benefit RB. Earlier in the year the FIA has been quoted saying they do not wish to interfere or affect the outcome of a race. Yesterday, they tossed out rule 48.12 to give the race/championship to Max.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by M2CS

None of the drivers would ever say they want the rules broken to prevent them from winning a race. The circumstances no longer allowed a fair race to the finish and Masi didn't red flag to attempt create any fairness. You know damn well if the situation was reversed you would be screaming how Max was robbed.

As I said the rules didn't come into it in that instance and whoever would benefit or lose out of it is just the luck of the draw, if Ham would have come in for tyres then he would have had more grip but he didn't.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Is there a minimum number of laps a safety car must run?

The rules dictate the safety car is supposed to come in the following lap (after all cars have unlapped themselves). Of course yesterday, all lapped drivers weren't allowed to pass and the safety car was ended on the same lap that drivers who were allowed to pass did so.




^-- see how according to the rules, Mercedes had no reason to pit HAM. According to the rules, if they gave up track position and pitted HAM... Max would WIN behind the SC. That's what the FIA's rules state would happen.

[M5Rick]

Latest is that Merc are 'considering' withdrawing protest against FIA thinking of the integrity of the sport.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Latest is that Merc are 'considering' withdrawing protest against FIA thinking of the integrity of the sport.

They might as well withdraw it. The damage has already been done and it cannot be corrected without causing further damage. The only course of action that should be taken is the termination of Masi and other stewards.