[Red Bread]

GTF, please stop pushing the sad little Renault. For once, there's a car the ROW can get that we can't that I'm actually kinda glad about. The Toyabaru is one thing, but this is really too much.

The only cool Renualts are the Alpines and the rear engine Clios.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

GTF, please stop pushing the sad little Renault. For once, there's a car the ROW can get that we can't that I'm actually kinda glad about. The Toyabaru is one thing, but this is really too much.

The only cool Renualts are the Alpines and the rear engine Clios.

Ok, that I can do!

But please, don't deny what you don't know... With the Megane RS I was just proving to you that a FWD car can be much better than a LOT of the RWD cars and a real competition for the Toyobaru.

For instace, EVO magazine says that they prefer it and even the Renault Clio RS to the automatic Toyobaru.

[josephr25]

If there's a turbo model, then I'll get one. If there isn't going to be one... well, I'll still look at a red FR-S

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

For instace, EVO magazine says that they prefer it and even the Renault Clio RS to the automatic Toyobaru.

Duh. I'd rather drive a Viano with a manual than a GTR, but I'm weird like that. I'd also prefer that same silly MB bus to the Megane. I've had my fwd cars, I've tried to make them fun, it just isn't the same thing as even a terrible rwd car.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Levi,

I forgot to ask you, what does your brother's friend think about the Megane RS' throttle response?

I would like to give you some specs about two engines with the exact same max. power output because I'm wondering what would be your choice... one is NA and the other is turbocharged:

................... Porsche Boxster (981).................... Megane RS (265) Trophy
Max. Power... 265 hp (6700 rpm) ......................... 265 hp (5500 rpm)
Max. Torque.. 280 Nm(4500-6500 rpm) ................. 360 Nm(3000-5000 rpm)
Redline......... 7800 rpm ..................................... 6500 rpm
Capacity....... 2706 cc ...................................... 1998 cc
Compression.. 12.5............................................ 8.6
Fuel injection. Direct injection............................. Multipoint sequential
Weight......... 1385 kg ...................................... 1462 kg
0-100 km/h... 5.8 s (manual) .............................. 6.0 s
Max. speed... 264 km/h ..................................... 255 km/h
Consumption. 8.2 l/100 km ................................. 8.2 l/100 km
CO2.............192 g/km...................................... 190 g/km


Forget about the cars in question for a second, who in his perfect mind would trade that HUGE torque advantage and an OK throttle response for a better throttle response and 1300 rpm plus?!

NA F6 without second thought. FI I4 are laggy, that is why many 1M owners don't want the M2 to get an I4.

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

What I mean with all this is simple... the Toyobaru needs a turbocharged engine to be perfect... I will keep asking for it!

It won't. There is aftermarket for that, the ZX6 is built for being tuned.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Levi

NA F6 without second thought. FI I4 are laggy, that is why many 1M owners don't want the M2 to get an I4.

I knew you would say that... You didn't tell me what your brother's friend think about the Megane RS' throttle response, though. What is his opinion as a former RS owner?

As for the FI I4 engines being 'laggy' let's take the Megana RS example again (I'm sorry Red Bread, I'm only trying to make my point clear about modern turbocharged engines' throttle response)... First of all, 80% of the peak torque is available from as low as 1900rpm, which means that at this point the torque (360*0.8 = 288 Nm) is already greater than the 981 Boxster's engine peak torque (280 Nm) which ONLY appears much later at 4500 rpm. So, the TIME that the Boxster engine will take to go from 1900 rpm to 4500 rpm at full throttle (maximum acceleration) in order to output the closest but still less torque than the RS' engine will ALWAYS be greater than any perceived 'turbo lag' from the latter in the same gear and for that rpm range because the turbo is already spooled up.

Of course that you will tell me the Boxster's engine acceleration is so linear and progressive that there's no perceived delay between the moment you press the throttle pedal and the moment you get the engine response from 1900 rpm up to 4500 rpm and beyond.

While that's true you must realize that for the same car (aerodynamics, weight and gear ratios) above 1900 rpm you would ALWAYS have greater acceleration with the Renault engine for the SAME rpm, gear and THROTTLE DEMAND!

On the other hand, what you may perceive as 'turbo lag' in the Renault's engine response from 1900 rpm to 3000 rpm (where the RS' engine peak torque first starts) is NOT, in fact, 'turbo lag' but the engine's non-linear torque delivery which reachs its peak more abruptly (as opposed to progressively) at 3000 rpm, thereafter the engine seems to pull evenly up to the redline (and beyond... ).

The thing is, thanks to the twin scroll turbocharger and continuously variable intake valve timing the Renault engine is ALREADY pulling harder at WOT from as low as 1900 rpm than the Porsche engine will EVER do up to its 7800 rpm redline.

Also, the Renaultsport Dynamic Management system allows the driver to choose between three modes through the ESP button on the dashboard:

- 'On': the default mode. The ESP, ASR traction control and emergency brake assist are all activated. The pedal mapping ensures smooth acceleration. In this mode, power is 250hp and torque is 340Nm.

- 'Sport' mode (*), for less intrusive ESP action. This mode is selected by a short press on the ESP button. The ESP and ASR are still active but intervene at a later point and allow the car to slide to a certain extent, so long as the skid doesn't exceed a given threshold. The pedal mapping is modified to permit swifter engine response and provide extra torque at low revs. By specific mapping, power is increased to 265hp and torque to 360Nm .

- 'Off' mode (*). This mode is activated by a longer push on the ESP button. The electronic stability programme is fully disconnected, while the pedal mapping ensures instant response from the engine and delivers all available torque and over-torque at low revs. The engine delivers 265hp of power and 360Nm of torque.

(*) If the car is optioned with the Renaultsport Monitor it further enables the driver to modify the throttle pedal mapping from five different settings (linear, normal, snow, sport and extreme) in both these modes.


Does this ring any bells to the 1M owner?!

Talking of whom... I as an 1M owner will be the first to support a M2 with a turbocharged I4 as long as this means lower weight and less fuel consumption! Power is cheap these days, the focus should be on weight reduction and improved mileage.

Originally Posted by Levi

It won't. There is aftermarket for that, the ZX6 is built for being tuned.

Nothing better than an already turbocharged engine from factory to be tuned...


Please, don't tell me the Megane RS is not fun... what you can say is because it is so damn' capable MOST will need a track to fully exploit it:

[GoingTooFast]

Stock Toyobaru engine with a small oil-less turbocharger and a FMIC (red circle in the picture) for a compact and low psi setup. The D4-S fuel injection system and the 12:1 compression ratio are retained. Now that is starting to get interesting...

[Dackelone]

I saw this car at the AMI show in Leipzig - I came away very un-impressed. What a slug. Sure on paper it doesn't look bad... but I found it very lacking in every way. Its under powered for now. Maybe once they put a turbo engine in it - it might be something. But for now its just an 'also ran" car that is RWD. I personally think a 128i would beat it in every performance category.

And what is with all this Advevo-Fanboy action? Geeez just PM him!!!

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I saw this car at the AMI show in Leipzig - I came away very un-impressed. What a slug. Sure on paper it doesn't look bad... but I found it very lacking in every way. Its under powered for now. Maybe once they put a turbo engine in it - it might be something. But for now its just an 'also ran" car that is RWD. I personally think a 128i would beat it in every performance category.

Hi Dackelone,

So, why do you think AutoBild says otherwise regarding the 125i (the European version of the US 128i)?

Originally Posted by Dackelone

And what is with all this Advevo-Fanboy action? Geeez just PM him!!!

I don't know what you are referring to with 'all this Advevo-Fanboy action'... Did you see me driving my 1M?!

Now seriously... Advevo and his videos are the ONLY reason why I started to left-foot brake and do it on a regular basis now... so yes, I'm a big fan since long time ago! More recently, whenever I have questioned Advevo over the 1M forum about his driving tecnhique he was always kind enough to answer me until someone has banned me from that forum. So, I have NO problem talking to Advevo but someone decided that I couldn't do it over the 1M forum... I thought that was precisely what a forum is for.

Forum Definition:

A public meeting place for open discussion.

A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

An online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.

A public (online) place where people discuss and meet.

Finally, knowing what Advevo values in a car I really think the Toyobaru was made for a driver like him and I would like VERY much that he could test it to the limit and share his findings with ALL OF US his fans (I'm not alone, you know!?).

[MrClean335i]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Ok, that I can do!

But please, don't deny what you don't know... With the Megane RS I was just proving to you that a FWD car can be much better than a LOT of the RWD cars and a real competition for the Toyobaru.

For instace, EVO magazine says that they prefer it and even the Renault Clio RS to the automatic Toyobaru.

There is a new Clio. The RS version is going to be epic. I wish they raced it in the WRC.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by MrClean335i

There is a new Clio. The RS version is going to be epic. I wish they raced it in the WRC.

I'm glad you brought it up! I guess we have to wait for its public debut at the Paris motor show in September and see:

French sources say the car will have a new turbocharged 1.6-litre petrol engine with ‘at least’ the same 197bhp as the current car’s 2.0-litre, naturally aspirated unit.'

A 187bhp version of the same engine is currently in the Nissan Juke. Sources say the Renault Clio RS will also get the option of a new dual-clutch gearbox, which is expected to get paddle shifters as standard.

in Autocar

Do you understand now why I'm insisting and asking for a turbocharged 1.6-litre petrol boxer engine with at least the same 200 hp as the current Toyobaru's 2.0-litre, naturally aspirated unit (but a LOT more torque)?!

[GoingTooFast]

Powerful four-cylinder turbo to combine with lower weight for the next Nissan 370Z - given the Renault-Nissan Alliance the new model is expected to drop its 3.7-litre V6 engine in favour of a more powerful version (~300 hp) of the turbocharged 2.0-litre four-cylinder engine which will equip the hotter Megane RS recently spied testing at the Nordschleife:

It will be a turbocharged direct injection petrol engine - MR20DDT 2.0 L (1998 cc) DIG-T.

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Powerful four-cylinder turbo to combine with lower weight for the next Nissan 370Z - given the Renault-Nissan Alliance the new model is expected to drop its 3.7-litre V6 engine in favour of a more powerful version (~300 hp) of the turbocharged 2.0-litre four-cylinder engine which will equip the hotter Megane RS recently spied testing at the Nordschleife:

It will be a turbocharged direct injection petrol engine - MR20DDT 2.0 L (1998 cc) DIG-T.

So, is it going to be called the Nissan 200Z then? I thought I remember reading that Nissan was keeping the 370Z and creating a new car to fit that segment.

[BMW269]

[Ricfutures]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

That looks fantastic!

This is why the BRZ is such a big deal, all other automakers will be following with their own version.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

So, is it going to be called the Nissan 200Z then? I thought I remember reading that Nissan was keeping the 370Z and creating a new car to fit that segment.

Compact Sport Concept... FWD or AWD.

[GoingTooFast]

Extreme Toyobaru...

[Colt]

Awesome....they should of had it turbocharged though.

First modification I would do if it was my car is get rid of that wing.

[GoingTooFast]

The competition is set on the track... 2.8L V6 Twin Turbo hybrid (300 hp) vs 2.0-litre Boxer Turbo (300 hp)... Mugen CRZ-GT vs BRZ GT300... what about outside the track?!

[GoingTooFast]

Classification by the german magazine AutoBild (spanish text):

[GoingTooFast]

GT86 is Top Gear’s Speed Week Champion!

Top Gear spent a week with 25 “incredible cars” with the aim of whittling that number down to one overall victor – and the honour went to a newcomer already widely-considered as the king of entertainment, the GT86.

The Toyota’s first Speed Week challenge – featuring cars that “make everyday a little brighter” as opposed to fast performers in the traditional sense – was to overcome rivals in a pool of “real-world heroes”: the Vauxhall Astra GTC VXR, Ford Focus ST, and Suzuki Swift Sport.

First impressions don’t give the GT86 an ideal start though, thanks to its “anodyne” lines. “Honestly, how has Toyota managed to make a coupé look this plain?” writes Ollie Marriage. In the end though, there’s little contest. “It’s not slow – it really isn’t – it’s just that you have to work to get performance from it. It sounds sweet, is smooth and has the best throttle response of anything here.

“And I’m sorry, Ford, Vauxhall and Suzuki, but the Toyota is just better at corners than all of you. It’s nimble and light and has such a sweet balance of power and grip – sweet enough to be able to overlook the underwhelming cabin. And, yes, those narrow [Prius] tyres mean the RWD GT86 is excellent at skids, but even if that isn’t your chosen angle of attack, it really doesn’t matter – the GT86 is as keen that you enjoy the experience as the Swift.”

As Top Gear heads to northern Scotland for the final “showdown”, the GT86 takes on a distinguished shortlist: McLaren MP4-12C, Porsche 11 Carrera S, BMW M5, Lotus Exige S, Radical SR3 SL and Ford Focus ST. “Not the definitive winners of our Dunsfold face-offs, but the cars we thought could best handle the 500-mile slog north, and then do the business on Scotland’s roads as well.”

Debating the merits of each car, Marriage and Sam Philip end up focusing most of their attention on the back-to-basics Toyota.

SP: “For driving thrills, this is my sort of performance car. Good steering, nice crisp gearchange, revvy engine, You can find its limits, slide it around, without fear of being inadvertently deposited in a loch and devoured by otters.”

OM: “Technically, it does suffer a few issues. The ride isn’t as supple as it should be, there’s vibration through the gearlever and it all feels a bit unsophisticated.”

SP: “It’s old-school, yes. But do not try to pretend that you did not totally adore it.”

OM: “I love how lightly it treads. The BMW is a blunderbuss, the McLaren is too focused on speed, even the Porsche feels a bit heavy-handed in comparison. The GT86 is dainty and maximises the benefits of its layout and low centre of gravity. It asks why you need to go round a corner at a zillion miles an hour. You don’t. Even pottering around, it’s different and interesting: the steering is unfashionably weighty, the rear end heavily sprung. Though
the boxer engine lacks torque, it’s no hardship to cane the bejesus out of it. It has delightful balance. It shows the real benefits of a simple front-engine/rear-drive lay-out combined with a good old-fashioned mechanical diff. It just works well. Sod torque-vectoring. This is better.”

This raises the “zeitgeisty issue” of whether flat-out speed is enough in a performance car.

OM continues: “Acceleration is fun, but the noise is as important as the kick in the back, and I’d rather spend 30 seconds wringing the GT86 up to speed than three seconds being pummeled by the McLaren. You have more time to enjoy it, you feel more like part of the process and you don’t put plod’s nose out of joint so easily.”

In an “unscientific show of hands”, the 911 and Exige take joint-second. Although they are both “fantastic, they’re very slick examples of the formulas perfected by Lotus and Porsche over generations. The GT86 is a new, different recipe – or at least an old recipe car companies forgot about for the last decade or so.”

And so the GT86 – “the slowest, least powerful, second-cheapest car here” – is declared Speed Week Champion. Marriage adds: “Rightly so. The Toyota was the car everyone kept jumping into for ‘one last quick go’, and the one they got out of with the daftest smiles on their midge-bitten faces.”

[GoingTooFast]

Take note that Chris Harris always prizes Porsche above everything else much like Jeremy Clarkson prizes Mercedes above everything else and like Advevo, who races BMWs, buys mostly BMW's...