[E34nication]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Top speed maybe with Max running almost no rear wing, acceleration to top speed advantage Merc.

Whether or not the actual peak acceleration favored Merc, the RB was making up time on the straights which in my mind is the definition of a straight line advantage. Flip of the script compared to the normal rb12 cornering advantage and straight line disadvantage.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Let's have a civil exchange on this point, yeah? Because I think it's interesting, hugely influential on outcome, and worth discussing.

Blown call -- no, too strong. It wasn't a real-time clear cut decision on the Merc pit wall. But as I've said, I do believe that if HAM had been presented with the choice, I'm confident he would have taken those softs and fought from 2nd.

It was safe to assume the race would be restarted. Because of the speed of the Latifi cleanup, and perhaps even more so, because ending this season under safety car should absolutely be avoided from every conceivable perspective. Again, I got the impression of race resumption watching the broadcast long before it went green, with limited footage of the Williams cleanup. Merc didn't have more camera angles or information?

Merc's lapped cars buffer strategy wasn't actual. There's no way Merc hung the championship on numerous cars remaining between HAM and VER. They couldn't have predicted with any certainty that the lapped cars wouldn't be allowed past, or that there wouldn't be time for that process after the clean up. What you heard from Toto was desperation, not their rule-based strategy going south.

Merc either didn't believe the race would be resumed, or believed that HAM's remaining pace and track position would be enough if it did. They were unwilling to give up track position.

Toto freaked at the loss of the lapped cars buffer, but that was a red herring. Lapped cars wasn't their strategy, no way.

It was never clear that the race wasn't going to end under the SC. It doesn't matter if that's not how we wanted it to end, according to the way the rules are written that was the likely result. Didn't Max get a "win" at Spa this year behind the SC? That wasn't what we wanted, but that is the way the rules are written.

When Mercedes saw RB pit Max for softs, they would've had to assume that Max would still have to get through lapped traffic the same way Lewis had to. Now if race direction wanted to let lapped traffic pass the SC, they would've had to let all the cars pass. Of course there wasn't time to get all the cars past the SC so again... looked like the race was going to end on SC. The lapped cars made all the difference, Lewis would've had too much of a lead for Max to catch him if Masi didn't remove those cars!

[F87source]

Well despite the controversy, I'd like to say congratulations to max for pulling through on a tough season to become world champion. I'd also like to say good job Lewis you did a really good job pushing throughout the season but something's aren't meant to be.

Hope next year is going to be good.

Looking forward to the 2022 cars.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad (...) maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

your dear maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad is still losing to SLH

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad kamikaze

Originally Posted by Jiren

Masi gifted the win to maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

maxipad (...) maxipad

Originally Posted by Jiren

your precious maxipad

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by M2CS

It was never clear that the race wasn't going to end under the SC. It doesn't matter if that's not how we wanted it to end, according to the way the rules are written that was the likely result. Didn't Max get a "win" at Spa this year behind the SC? That wasn't what we wanted, but that is the way the rules are written.

When Mercedes saw RB pit Max for softs, they would've had to assume that Max would still have to get through lapped traffic the same way Lewis had to. Now if race direction wanted to let lapped traffic pass the SC, they would've had to let all the cars pass. Of course there wasn't time to get all the cars past the SC so again... looked like the race was going to end on SC. The lapped cars made all the difference, Lewis would've had too much of a lead for Max to catch him if Masi didn't remove those cars!

Didn't say it was 100% clear. I said one would have to think they'd have compelling interests to restart the race, that it would be resumed if at all possible. Because we're talking about the final lap of the WDC, with the two championship protagonists in play, and track conditions that could facilitate a restart, unlike Spa.

There's no way Merc assumed lapped traffic would not be allowed to unlap under safety car. That was not their strategy. That was Toto's distracting desperation after they thought they had been gifted that advantage.

Their strategy was track position and confidence in HAM holding off VER for one lap. Probably with a sprinkle of excruciating fear of giving up track position only to have the race finished under safety car. (Can you imagine...) I don't blame them, but it was the wrong call.

[heyyouduh]

mercedes strategy was fine, using the benefit of hindsight to question it doesn't make sense. they had their strategy and was carrying it out and were leading, no need to take chances like RB did.

hard to say Verstappen didnt "deserve" a WDC, but Hamilton was the rightful winner today.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Let's have a civil exchange on this point, yeah? Because I think it's interesting, hugely influential on outcome, and worth discussing.

Blown call -- no, too strong. It wasn't a real-time clear cut decision on the Merc pit wall. But as I've said, I do believe that if HAM had been presented with the choice, I'm confident he would have taken those softs and fought from 2nd.

It was safe to assume the race would be restarted. Because of the speed of the Latifi cleanup, and perhaps even more so, because ending this season under safety car should absolutely be avoided from every conceivable perspective. Again, I got the impression of race resumption watching the broadcast long before it went green, with limited footage of the Williams cleanup. Merc didn't have more camera angles or information?

Merc's lapped cars buffer strategy wasn't actual. There's no way Merc hung the championship on numerous cars remaining between HAM and VER. They couldn't have predicted with any certainty that the lapped cars wouldn't be allowed past, or that there wouldn't be time for that process after the clean up. What you heard from Toto was desperation, not their rule-based strategy going south.

Merc either didn't believe the race would be resumed, or believed that HAM's remaining pace and track position would be enough if it did. They were unwilling to give up track position.

Toto freaked at the loss of the lapped cars buffer, but that was a red herring. Lapped cars wasn't their strategy, no way.

The lapped cars wasn't, but the rules of the safety car was. If Masi was able to deviate from the rules because of a grey area or whatever, the scenario should have been 1 of 2:

1. Maintain grid positioning and resume race and let VER race to overtake (if you want to go by the whole "Toto, Toto…this is a motor race").

2. If you're going to let lapped cars pass, all should pass and if there is still a lap to race, then game on. Masi buckled under the pressure after Horner was on radio "why aren't we getting these cars out of the way…we only need one racing lap".

There is no Mercedes Pit stop error or mess up. Mercedes was in complete control with or without the safety car.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

Interesting that they say "so pick up rubber, where you can"
I assume that is to get the car as heavy as they can for post race FIA checks.

BTW chassis default 77 put a message on Bottas screen in the steering wheel (77 is obviously his racing number):

Also another thing:
That moment when HAM slowed down and Max overtook him for a moment 1 or 2 inches, that was one of HAM's tricks to try and stall Max' engine, or having him shift to neutral, or using his clutch in the hope it burns up (bad thing, those clutches burn up really fast as the clutchplate is only 10cm or so, its tiny!).
Maybe the merc engine can turn lower revs, and of course HAM was on the outside forcing Max to take an inside corner, so even less distance to travel.
An F1 engine runs what? 4k revs at neutral, so they have a really hard time to drive that slow.

I always thought there should be no more than a max 10 car gap between safety car and also between racecars. Or does that not count on the safetycar outlap?

Anyway it doesn't matter anymore I guess. Up to next year.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Didn't say it was 100% clear. I said one would have to think they'd have compelling interests to restart the race, that it would be resumed if at all possible. Because we're talking about the final lap of the WDC, with the two championship protagonists in play, and track conditions that could facilitate a restart, unlike Spa.

There's no way Merc assumed lapped traffic would not be allowed to unlap under safety car. That was not their strategy. That was Toto's distracting desperation after they thought they had been gifted that advantage.

Their strategy was track position and confidence in HAM holding off VER for one lap. Probably with a sprinkle of excruciating fear of giving up track position only to have the race finished under safety car. (Can you imagine...) I don't blame them, but it was the wrong call.

It wasn't the wrong call for Mercedes, they had the race won if Race Direction did not deviate from the rules! NO way should Mercedes have pitted HAM to put him behind Max while not even knowing if the race would end on SC (all indicators pointed to it ending on SC or at least Max having to get through traffic). HAM wouldn't have had any trouble holding off Max because he would've had a sizable gap on the restart and Max wouldn't even have any clear air until he got by all the lapped cars. The mistake wasn't Merc leaving HAM out, the mistake was Masi breaking the rules in the name of "entertainment" and handing Max a win.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Interesting that they say "so pick up rubber, where you can"
I assume that is to get the car as heavy as they can for post race FIA checks.


Also that moment when HAM slowed down and Max overtook him for a moment 1 or 2 inches, that was one of HAM's tricks to try and stall Max' engine, or having him shift to neutral, or using his clutch in the hope it burns up (bad thing, those clutches burn up really fast as the clutchplate is only 10cm or so, its tiny!).
Maybe the merc engine can turn lower revs, and of course HAM was on the outside forcing Max to take an inside corner, so even less distance to travel.
An F1 engine runs what? 4k revs at neutral, so they have a really hard time to drive that slow.

I always thought there should be no more than a max 10 car gap between safety car and also between racecars. Or does that not count on the safetycar outlap?

Anyway it doesn't matter anymore I guess. Up to next year.

That is exactly what I shouted to the TV screen, clever on Hammy part. It’s difficult driving an S65 in first without the car bucking, F1 would be nightmare.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by M2CS

It wasn't the wrong call for Mercedes, they had the race won if Race Direction did not deviate from the rules! NO way should Mercedes have pitted HAM to put him behind Max while not even knowing if the race would end on SC (all indicators pointed to it ending on SC or at least Max having to get through traffic). HAM wouldn't have had any trouble holding off Max because he would've had a sizable gap on the restart and Max wouldn't even have any clear air until he got by all the lapped cars. The mistake wasn't Merc leaving HAM out, the mistake was Masi breaking the rules in the name of "entertainment" and handing Max a win.

Are you aware of another race since the 90s (excluding weather) where lapped cars are embedded between race leaders. I’m not.

But I get your frustration. Yellow flags happen.

Red flags benefited Hammy significantly at least twice this year, but that’s the rules.

Ask hammy about Timo Glock and fortunate circumstances for his first WDC.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

lmao... george russell outpacing verstappen. that answers my question.

last few pages seem to be constantly mentioning HAMs race pace. in reality its Mercedes pace. They make the better car and i agree with them winning the constructors championship. WDC should go to max... to take that redbull and go toe to toe with Mercedes is quite a feat.

+1

Ham will now have to worry about a hungry young George next season, not just Max.

Next season with new regs will be interesting.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

The lapped cars wasn't, but the rules of the safety car. If Masi was able to deviate from the rules because of a grey area or whatever, the scenario should have been 1 of 2:

1. Maintain grid positioning and resume race and let VER race to overtake (if you want to go by the whole "Toto, Toto…this is a motor race").

2. If you're going to let lapped cars pass, all should pass and if there is still a lap to race, then game on. Masi buckled under the pressure after Horner was on radio "why aren't we getting these cars out of the way…we only need one racing lap".

There is no Mercedes Pit stop error or mess up. Mercedes was in complete control with or without the safety car.

Didn't your scenario 1 occur?

I can empathize with the red flag argument from some pages back, although the track situation didn't really seem to warrant that. It was a straightforward cleanup. But since we were in a grey area, red flag would have maintained grid positions and put both drivers on equal tires.

The but Schumacher wasn't provided sufficient time to unlap himself with one lap remaining for the WDC argument, no. Won't make the footnotes.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by M2CS

NO way should Mercedes have pitted HAM to put him behind Max

Do you think HAM agrees?

[forza1976]

First post updated

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Are you aware of another race since the 90s (excluding weather) where lapped cars are embedded between race leaders. I’m not.

During past races, if they wanted lapped cars to overtake the SC they waited for ALL of them to overtake and the didn't immediately resume right after. There has never been a race that I can recall where race direction tossed out the rulebook for tv ratings and to favor one team/driver.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by E34nication

Whether or not the actual peak acceleration favored Merc, the RB was making up time on the straights which in my mind is the definition of a straight line advantage. Flip of the script compared to the normal rb12 cornering advantage and straight line disadvantage.

No argument here, nice to see two manufactures battle it out and not a super speed expedition like Brazil.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by M2CS

During past races, if they wanted lapped cars to overtake the SC they waited for ALL of them to overtake and the didn't immediately resume right after. There has never been a race that I can recall where race direction tossed out the rulebook for tv ratings and to favor one team/driver.

Frankly, the aggrieved party is anyone p12 (Danny R) and beyond. A protest from him may have some merit. Danny did get one hell of a view of the action.

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Let's have a civil exchange on this point, yeah? Because I think it's interesting, hugely influential on outcome, and worth discussing.

Blown call -- no, too strong. It wasn't a real-time clear cut decision on the Merc pit wall. But as I've said, I do believe that if HAM had been presented with the choice, I'm confident he would have taken those softs and fought from 2nd.

It was safe to assume the race would be restarted. Because of the speed of the Latifi cleanup, and perhaps even more so, because ending this season under safety car should absolutely be avoided from every conceivable perspective. Again, I got the impression of race resumption watching the broadcast long before it went green, with limited footage of the Williams cleanup. Merc didn't have more camera angles or information?

Merc's lapped cars buffer strategy wasn't actual. There's no way Merc hung the championship on numerous cars remaining between HAM and VER. They couldn't have predicted with any certainty that the lapped cars wouldn't be allowed past, or that there wouldn't be time for that process after the clean up. What you heard from Toto was desperation, not their rule-based strategy going south.

Merc either didn't believe the race would be resumed, or believed that HAM's remaining pace and track position would be enough if it did. They were unwilling to give up track position.

Toto freaked at the loss of the lapped cars buffer, but that was a red herring. Lapped cars wasn't their strategy, no way.

Agree on the civil exchange, good call.

Don’t think anybody wants to start behind Max on a restart with 1 lap to go, his elbows are just too wide. Further, he has nothing to lose and Lewis everything. Also, Max was already on softs before the Latifi incident (to which Horner thanked Latifi), leaving Lewis to chance pitting to match, albeit on fresher softs. BTW, didn’t see fastest lap posted if those two had taken each other out, would that have decided the ultimate outcome WDC?

This is the part that confused me:
Initially, Masi had been within his rights to state that ‘Lapped Cars will not be allowed to overtake’ - which meant Verstappen would be trapped behind five backmarkers before he could get a run on Hamilton. Then subsequently allowed just those cars to pass, what changed Masi’s mind?

What a great season and exciting finish. All of us wanted it to be decided with the drivers on track and not stewards, but what a season.

[MontyB1]

Michael Masi needs to consider his position. Both teams aren’t happy with him, his indecision and inconsistent guidance has been appalling all round this season.

For a sport that relies on clear rules, fractions of mm and precise everything things are descending into chaos under his rule. Charlie Whiting will be turning in his grave over this, the sport is sorely missing him.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Agree on the civil exchange, good call.

Don’t think anybody wants to start behind Max on a restart with 1 lap to go, his elbows are just too wide. Further, he has nothing to lose and Lewis everything. Also, Max was already on softs before the Latifi incident (to which Horner thanked Latifi), leaving Lewis to chance pitting to match, albeit on fresher softs. BTW, didn’t see fastest lap posted if those two had taken each other out, would that have decided the ultimate outcome WDC?

This is the part that confused me:
Initially, Masi had been within his rights to state that ‘Lapped Cars will not be allowed to overtake’ - which meant Verstappen would be trapped behind five backmarkers before he could get a run on Hamilton. Then subsequently allowed just those cars to pass, what changed Masi’s mind?

What a great season and exciting finish. All of us wanted it to be decided with the drivers on track and not stewards, but what a season.

Who knows but Horner was on the radio with him saying why they were not letting cars pass and they needed just one racing lap.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by forza1976

First post updated

And it looks just great !