[ragingclue]

I'm not about to say anyone was being an ass, but it's no surprise he took offense to your comment. He feeds his family (or maybe doesn't lately) by selling Audis.

Audis are good cars. Period. I looked at them when I was shopping around because my German colleagues think very highly of them and Audi does many things quite well.

[ruxp]

Originally Posted by AdamJ

Agreed, OP is a jerk.

Dunno what you guys are talking about. I thought the OP's statement was very correct.

[DougLikesBMW]

Originally Posted by ruxp

Dunno what you guys are talking about. I thought the OP's statement was very correct.

+1

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by noro

He is an audi salesman, he has to believe what he is selling is better. And the truth is Audi's are getting better at a faster pace than BMW.

Are they? I see a lot of Audi's on the side of the road. Barely any BMWs.

I still LOVE Audi's though.

[DougLikesBMW]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Are they?

No...If anything I think they are getting worse...Fuglier and Fuglier.

[shift330]

Originally Posted by jfarnkopf

....Heres the best part, they told him that they were going to have his car for nearly 2 weeks and tried to give him a sh!tty ford focus as a loaner. The car had out of state tags and was beat to crap. He caused a huge scene in the dealership and they finally gave him a ford explorer. Now that is some serious B.S.

My dealer always tries to give me a damn cobalt or jetta. I'm glad I have 3 vehicles and don't have to take thier crappy Enterprise counter loaner cars.

[ruxp]

Oh, I would add though that the OP getting offended over the dealer's statement also doesn't make sense. I mean, the guy sells Audis for a living. WTF do you expect him to say - "good point, our cars suck?"

It might've been fun arguing the point with the salesman, though it's not like he's going to concede the point anyway.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Lassaxi

Exactly right. People used to get out and turn a crank to start a car too. Machinery evolves just like everything else.

I remember when "real" sports cars did not have power steering or power brakes because "enthusiasts" wanted "road feel". Now all cars have power assisted steering and brakes.
I regularly get to drive a variety of cars with different types of transmissions including SMG, Steptronic, and MT. The term "Slushbox" just does not apply any more. The torque converter on the ZF in the 335i is almost always locked, Mercedes has an AT that uses a multi-plate clutch instead of a torque converter, Audi and BMW have dual clutch, pre-selector transmissions and BMW Ferrari, etc. have SMG tranmissions which are essentially automatically shifted manuals.

I don't agree with the "better control" with a manual argument. As long as the car can be put in the proper gear quickly and smoothly it does not matter whether it is done with a shift lever and a clutch or with steering wheel paddles. ALl Formula One cars and a lot of other race cars are paddle shifted and almost all F1 drivers left foot brake.

I agree that a MT can be fun to drive but in a racing situation the winner is the driver who gets around the track fastest not the driver who has the most fun. As much as some of us may miss them I agree that Manual Transmision is an endangered species.

CA

[ENINTY]

It will be a sad day when the 3er doesn't offer a manual. I think it is such an iconic car that the demise of the manual in the 3 is far off. The 5 Series, not so much.

The real issue with offering a manual transmission in the US has to do with economics. Each time a new car is introduced to the market, it has to be crash tested in each of its engine/transmission configurations. So if the manufacturer doesn't see a ROI that justifies crash testing a particular engine/trans combination, they will not offer the combination in the US market.

That is why, for instance, you don't see a Crown Vic offering a manual transmission. It has the same basic engine and drivetrain as the Mustang GT, but there is no market for a manual Crown Vic. It is not worth it to engineer the clutch pedal set up and shifter set up, and crash test the car for the 6 people in the US that may want one with a manual.

[ruxp]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I remember when "real" sports cars did not have power steering or power brakes because "enthusiasts" wanted "road feel". Now all cars have power assisted steering and brakes.
I regularly get to drive a variety of cars with different types of transmissions including SMG, Steptronic, and MT. The term "Slushbox" just does not apply any more. The torque converter on the ZF in the 335i is almost always locked, Mercedes has an AT that uses a multi-plate clutch instead of a torque converter, Audi and BMW have dual clutch, pre-selector transmissions and BMW Ferrari, etc. have SMG tranmissions which are essentially automatically shifted manuals.

I don't agree with the "better control" with a manual argument. As long as the car can be put in the proper gear quickly and smoothly it does not matter whether it is done with a shift lever and a clutch or with steering wheel paddles. ALl Formula One cars and a lot of other race cars are paddle shifted and almost all F1 drivers left foot brake.

I agree that a MT can be fun to drive but in a racing situation the winner is the driver who gets around the track fastest not the driver who has the most fun. As much as some of us may miss them I agree that Manual Transmision is an endangered species.

CA

1. the 335 is not a "real" sports car by any stretch of the imagination

2. 99% of 335s (including mine) will never see a racing situation, unless you count street racing. This goes for A4s and other cars in the segment as well. I'm sure there are a wide variety of motivations amongst 335 purchasers, but I'd be willing to bet that the track racers are the smallest demographic. The people who buy them because they're fun, fast, quality rides almost certainly outnumber them.

So yes, the 12940192049102490th breakdown on this forum of why various forms of automatic transmissions are catching up to/have surpassed MT is accurate, but most people seeking to buy sports-luxury vehicles in MT don't care. They buy MT because that's how they enjoy driving the car.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by ruxp

1. the 335 is not a "real" sports car by any stretch of the imagination

2. 99% of 335s (including mine) will never see a racing situation, unless you count street racing. This goes for A4s and other cars in the segment as well. I'm sure there are a wide variety of motivations amongst 335 purchasers, but I'd be willing to bet that the track racers are the smallest demographic. The people who buy them because they're fun, fast, quality rides almost certainly outnumber them.

So yes, the 12940192049102490th breakdown on this forum of why various forms of automatic transmissions are catching up to/have surpassed MT is accurate, but most people seeking to buy sports-luxury vehicles in MT don't care. They buy MT because that's how they enjoy driving the car.

My point exactly. You buy an MT because you like driving an MT. I enjoy driving them too I just don't find that there is any particular perfromance advantage to them anymore. BTW the vast majority of the 335s that I see at the track have manual transmissions. I am not sure what the racing M3s from Turner Motorsports etc. have but I would suspect it is the SMG.

[LEDZEP]

Why let a car salesman of any brand get to you?

As for the MT vs Auto discussion, people need to quit being such snobs. I really miss the old rotary dial telephone too, but I guess I'll just have to live with the advances in technology...

[jmsent]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

My point exactly. You buy an MT because you like driving an MT. I enjoy driving them too I just don't find that there is any particular perfromance advantage to them anymore. BTW the vast majority of the 335s that I see at the track have manual transmissions. I am not sure what the racing M3s from Turner Motorsports etc. have but I would suspect it is the SMG.

Exactly. It has now come down totally to preference. Since I was 17 (I'm 58 now) I always drove manuals because autos were truly "slushboxes"; inefficient, slower than manual, bad fuel economy, heavy. But that's changed. The mileage and performance of the 335 ZF step is as good or better than that of the manual. The rest of the car is very advanced, and to me, the MT actually seems out of place. Kudos to BMW for continuing to offer it, but to be honest, they haven't improved the shift quality of their MT in the standard 3 series since my 87 325is. It's a far cry from a Honda S2000 or even my E46M3. To each his own, but I have to believe the days of the traditional "stick shift" are numbered. Back on the topic of Audi's: nice cars, but not my cup of tea.

[123Britt]

Hey the NEW A4 tries to do everything well - particularly, the interior volume and soft touch materials. For a smooth and Sporty ride where interior volume is the main requirment - the new A4 is really good. Actually, if you are in this category - the A6 is would even be a better fit.
.
However, if driving feedback is your passion or handling is at the top of your list - throw in the inherently smooth inline 6 -- BMW wins hands down.
.
.
So I don't think the two cars are even in the same class.
.
So, the lack of a manual even further separates the two - but that is ok and dosen't mean that the Audi is a bad thing -- just that Audi management has abandoned the sport sedan market in favor of the LUX-SEMI - Sporty Class.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by 123Britt

Hey the NEW A4 tries to do everything well - particularly, the interior volume and soft touch materials. For a smooth and Sporty ride where interior volume is the main requirment - the new A4 is really good. Actually, if you are in this category - the A6 is would even be a better fit.
.
However, if driving feedback is your passion or handling is at the top of your list - throw in the inherently smooth inline 6 -- BMW wins hands down.
.
.
So I don't think the two cars are even in the same class.
.
So, the lack of a manual even further separates the two - but that is ok and dosen't mean that the Audi is a bad thing -- just that Audi management has abandoned the sport sedan market in favor of the LUX-SEMI - Sporty Class.

And a LUX-SEMI - Sporty car is exactly what a lot of people are apparently looking for. I rented an A4 Cabriolet from Hertz last year and drove it around the Palm Beach Florida area for a week. It was not as engaging of a drive as my 335i but it was not a bad car by any means. I can understand that a lot of people may prefer it to a 335i. The ride quality of the 335i, particularly with sport package, on poor road surfaces leaves a lot of room for improvement. I don't like that aspect of the car but I put up with it because I like the way the car handles.

There are a lot of drivers out there who don't appreciate or care about the performance advantages of a BMW and are turned off by the bad ride quality.

Anyone who has driven a Sport Packge equiped 335i with Bridgestone RFTs on the FDR drive in NYC will know what I am talking about. If you live in Florida don't try to tell me how great the RFTs are. I have driven my car in both envirnoments and there is no comparison. If I used my car to drive around NYC I would seriously consider an Audi.

Any car is going to be a compromise. You are going to have to determine what is important to you in terms of economy, practicality, cost, performance, comfort, etc. and then decide what works for you. Not every Toyota Avalon owner made that choice because they could not afford a 3 series. By the same token not every 3 series driver made that choice because thety could not afford an S Class Mercedes.

[sdiver68]

The fact is that Audi IS ahead of BMW in regards to adopting DSG. The truth is that manuals are OUT in the minds of true performance enthusiasts.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

The fact is that Audi IS ahead of BMW in regards to adopting DSG. The truth is that manuals are OUT in the minds of true performance enthusiasts.

I am not sure about that but I see a lot of posts here and in other forums by MT driving "enthusiasts" who apparently don't really understand how to drive one. I went on the Cayman Clubs fall foliage run through the Catskills last Saturday and had no problem keeping up with them. This was on public roads and we were by no means pushing the cars to their limiits. The fact that we could have been going faster (and believe me we were not going slow) is moot. And the fact that the Caymans were (probably, or more likely definitely) capable of taking those curves faster than my 335i is also moot. The fact that a car is capable of going 90 MPH on a twisty mountain road does not mean it is a good idea to do so There is a post elseshere in this forum that shows what can happen when something goes wrong in this type of environment. It does not matter whether it was the divers fault or if it was unaviodable. The results can be catastrophic, and in this case a member of our community came way too close to a family tragedy.


http://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=179384

Modern high performance cars can make you overconfident and when they do finally break loose it can be at a very high speed and the driver may not have the experience or skills to correct the situation.


CA

[hotrod2448]

In my experience Audi "people" have a major hard on for BMW in general. I happen to like both of brands for different reasons but, I've yet to drive an Audi that gives me the feel I'm looking for and in buying a car that's paramount for me.

Anyway last time I went to my local Audi dealer to look at something this was my experience. I swear I'm not making this up or exaggerating.

As soon as my wife and I got out of my 335 we were greeted with "So, you're ready to step up, huh?" and that was said not in smiling joking fashion but, more in a taunting "you've got some nerve showing up here in one those" tones. I laughed it off and explained to him we like them enough that we currently have two of them but, want to make sure we aren't missing out anything since my wife's lease was up fairly soon.

He brings us over to the car. The entire time he's telling us how much better than a 7 it is. On this particular model I kind of agree with him so, I'm listening to his "points". After looking it over and seeing how rough this particular car was I told him we were not interested in it and asked him if he had anything else to show us.

I'm noticing he isn't comparing the car to anything but BMW. No mention of M-B, Lexus, Jag just BMW and not really bringing up any valid points of why it's better (aluminum chassis, DI, etc..) just saying that it is better and what BMW does wrong.

He brought us over to a B7 S4. Before we walked over to it I told him we drove one before, weren't very impressed and weren't really looking for a car like that right now. He insisted we look at it though. So we get over there and he proceeds to tell me how it kills the M3 in every respect and how much better it is then my current car too. I said "I don't think that's the case but, it doesn't matter because we don't want this car." He then said verbatim in an extremely shitty way "Well then what the hell are we looking at it for?"

At this point I kind snapped and let loose with "You fucking tell me! You are the one who brought us over here even after I said we weren't interested while antagonizing me the entire time about my current car choice. Did you ever think to do nothing but slam the brand a potential customer happens to like enough to own 2 of might be perceived as rude and a bit of an insult and not a good way to convince why I should switch? Not to mention you've been extremely confrontational when we ask questions about the cars and refuse to even talk to my wife who the car is for."

I found out later from a friend who used to work there that this guy is like that to everyone apparently and is just extremely abrasive but, if you ran that dealership why the hell would you keep him on knowing he was going to be the first impression people got of your brand? I'm not saying I wouldn't buy an Audi if I loved the car but, I certainly wouldn't buy it from that dealership now.

As far as the whole MT vs. AT things goes...who cares? You aren't measuring your trip to the grocery store in tenths of a second. It's more about the involvement a MT provides for me. It could be 4 seconds a lap slower around the nurburgring while getting 2 MPG less and I'm still taking a manual because I prefer to feel like I'm doing something when behind the wheel.

[captainaudio]

[quote=hotrod2448;3530994]I prefer to feel like I'm doing something when behind the wheel.[/quote]

I feel the same way. So now instead of shifting I text message.

But seriously folks. I have never maintained that MTs are not a lot of fun to drive. I drove them on my daily drivers in NYC for years. Driving a MT in traffic never bothered me and still doesn't. There is a great deal of satisfaction in a perfectly executed heel and toe double clutched downshift. My point is that there is no particular performance advantage to an MT so it comes down a matter of personal preference and either choice (Mt vs. AT) is valid.

CA

[LEDZEP]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

At this point I kind snapped and let loose with "You fucking tell me! You are the one who brought us over here even after I said we weren't interested while antagonizing me the entire time about my current car choice. Did you ever think to do nothing but slam the brand a potential customer happens to like enough to own 2 of might be perceived as rude and a bit of an insult and not a good way to convince why I should switch? Not to mention you've been extremely confrontational when we ask questions about the cars and refuse to even talk to my wife who the car is for."

...and IMHO you were still showing some poise and restraint. What an asswipe. In addition to the things you said to him... if you really want to get these guys like bamboo under the fingernails, say "why would suggest that I trade my BMW for a VW?" Same argument for Lexota and Acuronda...

Good story though!

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

In my experience Audi "people" have a major hard on for BMW in general. I happen to like both of brands for different reasons but, I've yet to drive an Audi that gives me the feel I'm looking for and in buying a car that's paramount for me.

Anyway last time I went to my local Audi dealer to look at something this was my experience. I swear I'm not making this up or exaggerating.

As soon as my wife and I got out of my 335 we were greeted with "So, you're ready to step up, huh?" and that was said not in smiling joking fashion but, more in a taunting "you've got some nerve showing up here in one those" tones. I laughed it off and explained to him we like them enough that we currently have two of them but, want to make sure we aren't missing out anything since my wife's lease was up fairly soon.

He brings us over to the car. The entire time he's telling us how much better than a 7 it is. On this particular model I kind of agree with him so, I'm listening to his "points". After looking it over and seeing how rough this particular car was I told him we were not interested in it and asked him if he had anything else to show us.

I'm noticing he isn't comparing the car to anything but BMW. No mention of M-B, Lexus, Jag just BMW and not really bringing up any valid points of why it's better (aluminum chassis, DI, etc..) just saying that it is better and what BMW does wrong.

He brought us over to a B7 S4. Before we walked over to it I told him we drove one before, weren't very impressed and weren't really looking for a car like that right now. He insisted we look at it though. So we get over there and he proceeds to tell me how it kills the M3 in every respect and how much better it is then my current car too. I said "I don't think that's the case but, it doesn't matter because we don't want this car." He then said verbatim in an extremely shitty way "Well then what the hell are we looking at it for?"

At this point I kind snapped and let loose with "You fucking tell me! You are the one who brought us over here even after I said we weren't interested while antagonizing me the entire time about my current car choice. Did you ever think to do nothing but slam the brand a potential customer happens to like enough to own 2 of might be perceived as rude and a bit of an insult and not a good way to convince why I should switch? Not to mention you've been extremely confrontational when we ask questions about the cars and refuse to even talk to my wife who the car is for."

I found out later from a friend who used to work there that this guy is like that to everyone apparently and is just extremely abrasive but, if you ran that dealership why the hell would you keep him on knowing he was going to be the first impression people got of your brand? I'm not saying I wouldn't buy an Audi if I loved the car but, I certainly wouldn't buy it from that dealership now.

As far as the whole MT vs. AT things goes...who cares? You aren't measuring your trip to the grocery store in tenths of a second. It's more about the involvement a MT provides for me. It could be 4 seconds a lap slower around the nurburgring while getting 2 MPG less and I'm still taking a manual because I prefer to feel like I'm doing something when behind the wheel.

Great story.

Btw, this hit the nail on the head.

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by LEDZEP

...and IMHO you were still showing some poise and restraint. What an asswipe. In addition to the things you said to him... if you really want to get these guys like bamboo under the fingernails, say "why would suggest that I trade my BMW for a VW?" Same argument for Lexota and Acuronda...

Good story though!

Yeah, I was fairly proud of my restraint for limiting it to just that and not going in and ripping the GM a new one for keeping such an asshole around. Even after all these years away I could hear my jersey accent coming back while communicating my displeasure with his sales tactics.

I prefer not to argue with idiots. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Great story.

Btw, this hit the nail on the head.

Thanks.

I appreciate automatics for their ease of use in heavy traffic and their ever increasing performance but, I just love the added involvement of a manual.