[pukicabuki]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The problem is that the B58 has proven nearly impossible for aftermarket tuners to crack the code on, yet the Supra is purportedly being developed with the aftermarket squarely in mind on Toyota's side.

The simple answer to this is that they can use their own ECU/software. The engine doesn't know what brand of hardware/software is running it just what it's being told. Toyota is more than capable of tuning a BMW engine to their specifications using their own hardware. Then they just need to use an unencrypted ECU and give tuners free reign.

This is no different than an individual running a stand alone ECU like a Haltech or AEM. The big reason people don't do this as much anymore is that the ECUs are so integrated in all the other systems that you either lose functionality or it becomes so incredibly expensive to separate the engine management functions from everything else and run two independent systems.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

The simple answer to this is that they can use their own ECU/software. The engine doesn't know what brand of hardware/software is running it just what it's being told. Toyota is more than capable of tuning a BMW engine to their specifications using their own hardware. Then they just need to use an unencrypted ECU and give tuners free reign.

This is no different than an individual running a stand alone ECU like a Haltech or AEM. The big reason people don't do this as much anymore is that the ECUs are so integrated in all the other systems that you either lose functionality or it becomes so incredibly expensive to separate the engine management functions from everything else and run two independent systems.

And that's exactly what I suggest Toyota is doing. Thanks for the backup.

[Red Bread]

I'd feel a lot better about this if the one thing Toyota had been in charge of for the GT86, the dual mode fuel injection, hadn't been one of the biggest faults of that car. Probably better to just keep BMW's bits and bytes in place.

[IllSic_Design]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That's not the central point here, though there's tangential value:

The point is to make the B48/58 (theoretically) in the Supra relatively easy for the aftermarket to crack to encourage modification and help separate it from the BMW version (double meaning alert: both engine and model).

Think about it. Proprietary Toyota software for the Supra's Bxx engines would keep tunes developed in the aftermarket from being used on BMWs with the Bxx engine -- which is plainly what BMW wants.

That a shady Russian (really? You'd risk a flash by a Russian company?) outfit is the only place in nearly three years to have (purportedly) cracked the Bxx speaks volumes about how badly BMW does not want its engines heavily modified. Toyota, however, likely wants to encourage it in the Supra.

See the problem?

I get exactly the point you are trying to make and I agree. I was simply stating that it looks like the B58 has finally been cracked at least.

[yco]

new Supra concept got old but the car is still not around..

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The problem is that the B58 has proven nearly impossible for aftermarket tuners to crack the code on, yet the Supra is purportedly being developed with the aftermarket squarely in mind on Toyota's side.

This is a huge problem. How can you sell a car that's supposedly aftermarket friendly with an engine that can't be chipped/piggybacked either easily or (relatively) effectively?

My thought is that Toyota may use its own proprietary software on the powerplant, which it will make far more tune-friendly than BMW's version -- in fact, I'm willing to bet that this, along with potential hybridization, could be the primary reason for the launch delay ...

... and if the B58 (or even the B48) is used, that will likely be a guiding force behind the Supra's marketing when the car is eventually released, without any blatant mention of its BMW brother(s).

I think you are right that they will have their own ecu along with maps
The engine will be tuned to however the Supra is laid out..

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Nah, it's just the cost effective route for them. They're in business to make money.

Its also only .. ward's #1 engine 2018 thats all

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure, one of the two could be correct. Either the B58 is in the base model at that price, or its not and the base price is lower than $55k.

I strongly suspect there will be a base model with a B48 and a price that starts with a four, or perhaps even a three, as in $39,900 or so.

Is it impossible? No. But there is no evidence to support it. There is evidence from ynguldyn - a reliable source of pre-release product specs - against it. There is also the logical reasoning that cost-concsiouness makes it unlikely.

Absolutely.

While I would like to see a $40k Supra (so I can justified the purchase to the SO), it has never been a cheap a car. I also think a $40k 250hp Supra would also be DOA. Would people really buy it over the base $30k 332hp 370Z?

Gerald Killmann, the VP of R&D for Toyota said this in an interview.

It will not be a cheap car. There will be a clear difference between the GT86 and Supra. The GT86 remains the affordable sports car, the Supra becomes the performance model.

https://autorai.nl/interview-toyota-gerald-killmann/

Yes, we have no evidence of a NA. Moving on to a slightly matter, in an interview with Tada san, he make it seem that both cars will be tune differently.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

While I would like to see a $40k Supra, it has never been a cheap a car. I also think a $40k 250hp Supra would also be DOA. Would people really buy it over the base $30k 332hp 370Z?

Well if that's a relevant piece of comparison data, then $50k+ B58 powered model is an even bigger problem.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well if that's a relevant piece of comparison data, then $50k+ B58 powered model is an even bigger problem.

It wouldn't be that far off from the 370Z NISMO. The 6SP Manual comes in at $45,690 & the 7SP Auto at $47,090, and at the same time undercutting the $69,300 Cayman S by at least $15k.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by supra93

While I would like to see a $40k Supra (so I can justified the purchase to the SO), it has never been a cheap a car. I also think a $40k 250hp Supra would also be DOA. Would people really buy it over the base $30k 332hp 370Z?

I agree with mkoesel : There's a lot more competition in the $50k+ range than there is in the $35-$40k range ...

... case in point: The 370z you mention above. It's a 9-year-old design that Nissan shows little to no signs of replacing, and it uses a motor that was never well suited to the platform. Despite the 330-odd HP, it behaves more like an engine for a larger car and was far better matched to the Infiniti G35/37.

Besides: If Toyota really wanted to use NA engines across the new Supra range, it has any number of Lexus engines to choose from -- and heck: it could still do that in, say, the hybrid version. Problem is, none of the Lexus engines are well suited to the Supra platform because, well, most of them are based on old tech -- much like the 370z powertrain. See the problem?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

It wouldn't be that far off from the 370Z NISMO. The 6SP Manual comes in at $45,690 & the 7SP Auto at $47,090, and at the same time undercutting the $69,300 Cayman S by at least $15k.

Sure, but none of it changes the fact that the 370Z can be had with 332hp for $30k as you say.

Maybe they put a B58 in the $40k-ish model, and there is an B48 in an even lower priced $30k-ish model. Then they could do the Nismo trick Nissan does and have a top end B58 powered model at $50k-ish.

If ynguldyn says there's a B48, its probably going to happen. He's been correctly predicting engines for over five years now. Its no accident he gets stuff right so often - he has access to proprietary data/info.

I feel like there is a lot of bet hedging going on with the car that originates from what people want it to be vis-a-vis the original vs. what it is likely to be based on the fact that in many ways, at the end of the day, its a Z4 in coupe form with Toyota sheetmetal stretched over it.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I agree with mkoesel : There's a lot more competition in the $50k+ range than there is in the $35-$40k range ...

... case in point: The 370z you mention above. It's a 9-year-old design that Nissan shows little to no signs of replacing, and it uses a motor that was never well suited to the platform. Despite the 330-odd HP, it behaves more like an engine for a larger car and was far better matched to the Infiniti G35/37.

Besides: If Toyota really wanted to use NA engines across the new Supra range, it has any number of Lexus engines to choose from -- and heck: it could still do that in, say, the hybrid version. Problem is, none of the Lexus engines are well suited to the Supra platform because, well, most of them are based on old tech -- much like the 370z powertrain. See the problem?

Look, I'm just pointing out what Toyota officials have stated. There is no evidence from Toyota's side of anything under the $50k mark and no statements about a 4 cylinder model.

Encase you missed it, I did say I am also skeptical of this whole NA I6. This whole joint project was to save money. Do you think its cheaper to shove in a different motor? Or to lose the turbos and make tuning adjustments?

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure, but none of it changes the fact that the 370Z can be had with 332hp for $30k as you say.

Maybe they put a B58 in the $40k-ish model, and there is an B48 in an even lower priced $30k-ish model. Then they could do the Nismo trick Nissan does and have a top end B58 powered model at $50k-ish.

If ynguldyn says there's a B48, its probably going to happen. He's been correctly predicting engines for over five years now. Its no accident he gets stuff right so often - he has access to proprietary data/info.

I feel like there is a lot of bet hedging going on with the car that originates from what people want it to be vis-a-vis the original vs. what it is likely to be based on the fact that in many ways, at the end of the day, its a Z4 in coupe form with Toyota sheetmetal stretched over it.

The 370Z comes in at 3,232 lbs and also has a crappy interior. A70TTR has said the Supra prototype is just north of 2,900lbs. We also know BMW motors make a little more on dyno.

Sure, if you believe BMW will allow Toyota to undercut the Z4 by that much.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

In case you missed it, I did say I am also skeptical of this whole NA I6. This whole joint project was to save money. Do you think its cheaper to shove in a different motor? Or to lose the turbos and make tuning adjustments?

There is no *think* about it. It is well known that it will be far, far cheaper for them to share the engines with the Z4 than use their own.

Not only that but there is no such thing as "lose the turbos" when you are designing a mass market automobile. By removing the turbos, you are in fact going to "shove in a different motor". Cooling will be different which affects packaging, weight will be different which affects chassis tuning, etc. BMW is already doing all that for the B48, so by using that motor, you get all that for free. Or, just go with the B58 only. But adding a custom motor, especially for the entry level model, makes all of a big goose-egg sense.

Again, I see a lot of people wanting to will something into production that echoes all sorts of traits of previous decades-old model, rather than going with the more likely scenario that the two cars will be similar in every way but aesthetics.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

The 370Z comes in at 3,232 lbs and also has a crappy interior. A70TTR has said the Supra prototype is just north of 2,900lbs. We also know BMW motors make a little more on dyno.

Sure, if you believe BMW will allow Toyota to undercut the Z4 by that much.

Well, if they aren't going to undercut the Z4, then the whole thing is doomed. The last generation Z4 was $50k to start with the N20 4 cylinder. The N54 model was $60k. A sporty BMW roadster can command prices like that (though not like it once could). I don't see a Supra bringing home that much bacon unless it has serious chops which it won't have short of a miraculous appearance of an S55 or S58.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

There is no *think* about it. It is well known that it will be far, far cheaper for them to share the engines with the Z4 than use their own.

Not only that but there is no such thing as "lose the turbos" when you are designing a mass market product. By removing the turbos, You are in fact going to "shove in a different motor". Cooling will be different which affects packaging, weight will be different which affects chassis tuning, etc. BMW is already doing all that for the B48, so by using that motor, you get all that for free. Or, just go with the B58 only. But adding a custom motor, especially for the entry level model, makes all of a big goose-egg sense.

Again, I see a lot of people wanting to will something into production that echoes all sorts of traits of previous decades-old model, rather than going with the more likely scenario that the two cars will be similar in every way but aesthetics.

So what you are saying is Toyota won't make any changes the drivetrain?

Who are these people you are referring to?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, if they aren't going to undercut the Z4, then the whole thing is doomed. The last generation Z4 was $50k to start with the N20 4 cylinder. The N54 model was $60k. A sporty BMW roadster can command prices like that (though not like it once could). I don't see a Supra bringing home that much bacon unless it has serious chops which it won't have short of a miraculous appearance of an S55 or S58.

Obviously, the Toyota will be cheaper. But $20k less than its BMW counterpart?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by supra93

So what you are saying is Toyota won't make any changes the drivetrain?

Small ECU changes are possible.

Who are these people you are referring to?

Members of the enthusiast community.

Obviously, the Toyota will be cheaper. But $20k less than its BMW counterpart?

A $20k difference is not likely, but as much as $10k+ could be, yes.

[Red Bread]

There's no ECU difference in the BRZ and GT86 is there? I know they're more closely related than the Supra and Z4 likely will be but it seems like reasonable basis for Toyota selling a bog stock B58.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Small ECU changes are possible.

Or a hybrid powertrain -- but I think both models will get that eventually.

I think the ECU changes will be more than small because of what I've mentioned earlier. Toyota isn't going to use what would amount to a turnkey BMW drivetrain. It didn't in the FR-S/86 -- a different project since the engine was jointly developed, but to me that's even more reason for Toyota to not rely on turnkey hardware or software -- and it won't here.

I think it's important to remember that Toyota is, by far, the larger entity in this partnership. It was the same with Subaru. Toyota appropriated the basic architecture of the flat-4 Subie engine and developed it from there to suit the FR-S' needs -- NOT the BR-Z's. With the powertrains for the Supra, I sense that Toyota will appropriate BMW's Bxx hardware and take it from there to suit the Supra's needs, not the new Z4's. And since the Supra's needs includes tune-ability, that means a far less protected (and probably simpler) software package.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

A $20k difference is not likely, but as much as $10k+ could be, yes.

Important to remember here is that the Z4 will be a 'vert only, while the Supra will be a coupe only, for at least the first year. That difference will account for some of the price difference; the marque will account for some more. Beyond that, who knows?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There's no ECU difference in the BRZ and GT86 is there? I know they're more closely related than the Supra and Z4 likely will be but it seems like reasonable basis for Toyota selling a bog stock B58.

Yes, but which car had the developmental priority: the Toyota or the Subaru?

The Toyota. By far. Whatever Toyota wanted the engine to do, it got it to do. I suspect it will have the same attitude toward the Bxx hardware it's appropriating. The Supra is too important a car to be a slave to BMW's idea of how a drivetrain should perform -- and you know the automotive press will be hyper-analyzing that aspect from the first moment the car is released.

In this relationship, Toyota is the bad-ass. Not BMW.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yes, but which car had the developmental priority: the Toyota or the Subaru?

The Toyota. By far. Whatever Toyota wanted the engine to do, it got it to do. I suspect it will have the same attitude toward the Bxx hardware it's appropriating. The Supra is too important a car to be a slave to BMW's idea of how a drivetrain should perform -- and you know the automotive press will be hyper-analyzing that aspect from the first moment the car is released.

In this relationship, Toyota is the bad-ass. Not BMW.

So it will have a torque dip at 4.5k rpm, sound like death and lean itself out over 6k rpm and die regularly on the Autobahn? I'm not saying Subaru always gets their engines right, but I've tried to buy a BRZ a few times and that engine is violently bad, and from what you just said and plenty of what I've read, it's Toyota's oh so brilliant engineers that did all of the bad things.